Who's trodded both paths?

inertiastrength

So when I initially came to MFP in 2012 I was low carb; following the Atkins diet and restricting to below 20g daily and lost my first 20lbs. It really was impossible for me to stick to long term because I would literally perspire when I smelled baked goods lol I slowly increased carbs and
for the rest of the time, I followed IIFYM with macros in the 130C/50F/130P range give or take.

This winter I went full yolo and had to take off 20lbs of the 80 I had lost and kept off all those years and I've done that, but I want to lose 10 more, the 10 I never took off because I was lazy and I looked good bla bla.

The problem is I am hungry all the time. Like all the time. I could finish eating dinner and be hungry. I could probably eat 2 dinners and be hungry. I'm not eating very low, I'm eating between 1500-1700 cals on average (please don't creep my diary this week it is a disaster lol)

I'm not sure if I have low leptin from aggressively cutting those 20 or if I'm leptin resistant in general. Thoughts?

kpk54

I've been down both paths. Kinda. Those who have been around 15 or so months may recall my constant chatter slightly over a year ago (when I joined the forum) about my unrelenting hunger AFTER weight loss. There was NO reason for this hunger in regards to calories because I was certainly eating enough in my estimation. 63 yo, female, sedentary. ~1500 calories per day and I always felt like I was starving. It was very real hunger.

For weight loss my carb intake ranged from 60 to 160 and was generally in the higher amount. Protein was fairly high and fats were kept lower. Macros were 40C/30/30 but I didn't strictly adhere to them. Close. I kept the same up for about 2 years of maintenance and just white knuckled though the hunger. It was horrid and did drive me into some binge episodes.

Enter trialing keto for my neurological movement disorder beginning April of 2016. 75% +fat. Always. It was like magic in absolutely stopping the raging hunger I had experienced for 2 long years. Prior to keto, I too thought it must be related to leptin/ghrelin hunger hormones but eating LCHF changed that for me. "Hungry Brain" is an excellent book by Stephan Guyenet that sheds a bit of light on hunger and how we are "hardwired". Also "Always Hungry" (David Ludwig).

Since April 2017, I have eased back on the fat a bit but am still around 60% with no hunger. Currently I keep my carbs around 50 grams total. I happen to like vegetables and a little fruit and would like (and may) eat a bit higher carb in the future but absolutely will NOT if the hunger returns.

Weight management is not a concern for me. Hunger management is. If I manage the hunger the calories/maintenance will be fine. Up your fats maybe? Most will probably advocate upping protein but my n=1 seems to be fats.

inertiastrength

@kpk54 I just ordered that book, should arrive any day. I think I'm going to experiment with much higher fats because I can manage this hunger for maybe a few months but I know it's going to get the best of me eventually. I'm also really fond of vegetables and protein so I'll just have to scale back the dairy and fruit it isn't going to be a terrible difference to how I'm eating now. I'm not one to 'fit pop tarts and candy since I have trouble moderating even now (as you can plainly see if you look back on my carby binges) I really really just want to be not hungry. Thanks for your post, at thus point n =1 is fine by me!

kpk54

Yep. I just whipped through your diary. More fat will probably help. 150 grams of protein on average is plenty (IMO) and given at least 1 day of over 200 gr (in the few days I looked at) it seems protein must not be satiating. Your diary looks sooooo much like mine used to look. Same base calories even.

You did LC and Atkins before. You know what to do. Don't forget you might need to up your sodium due to the cut in carbs. Kudos on the -80 and even more kudos for the repeat -20! The last 10 will be nuthin' once you get your macros in order.

inertiastrength

I did a sample day for tomorrow and I'm going to try getting 90-100 fats and taper down my carbs and even my protein. I think 80-90g protein will be fine. Carbs at 80 and then I'll taper them down too if the fat really helps. Made some fat bombs like back in the day. I feel like I've come full circle again haha

kpk54

Just keep in mind that the carbs drive the hunger so they may have to go even lower. You'll get it right for you.

RalfLott

If you're hoping to melt away some of your Strategic Energy Reserve, that may happen quicker if you let your body burn its own fat rather than feeding it fat bombs....

I would tend to agree with @kpk54 that you may need to lower your carbs. Phinney & Volek (Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living & New Atkins for a New You) recommend starting at around 50g net carbs.

inertiastrength

RalfLott wrote: »

If you're hoping to melt away some of your Strategic Energy Reserve, that may happen quicker if you let your body burn its own fat rather than feeding it fat bombs....

I would tend to agree with @kpk54 that you may need to lower your carbs. Phinney & Volek (Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living & New Atkins for a New You) recommend starting at around 50g net carbs.

If i'm eating at a 500 cal deficit, won't it anyway? the point of the higher fats in my case is trying to quell this hunger.

AlexandraCarlyle

No. A calorie deficit will still leave you hungry if you're not eating the right proportion of foodstuffs.

You greatly need to increase your proteins, and eat fats to supplement, not to satiate.
Your carbs are definitely too high.

My current figures are set at:

Carbohydrates 28 g - (10 %) - Absolute maximum, often below, rarely above.
Fat 62 g - (50 %) - More or less achieved. Sometimes a little higher, or lower, but not too worried.
Protein 111 g - (40 %) - My aim, and target to always reach. If I ever go over, it's absolutely fine. Never under.

I have steadily lost weight, gradually and in a way that has never left me feeling hungry.
It hasn't always been a steady and continual decrease... sometimes I have plateau-ed and occasionally I have sustained, but I have never gone up.

kpk54

I often feel I am a bit of a lone ranger in on the forum with my focus on fat versus protein. My "angle" for fat in your case was/is that you have lost all but a remaining 10 pounds and it is only recently you have opted for those 10 pounds AND you are dealing with HUNGER. I recall only one other person in addition to myself in the 15 months or so I have been here who has ever mentioned being in maintenance then "suddenly" dealing with hunger. Granted when i opted for keto, 2 years into maintenance, it was unquestionably the very low carb high/fat combo that remedied the hunger. My "diet" was also only adequate protein since I was eating medically therapeutic keto. During the last 3 months since my focus is no longer MTKD, I have had the opportunity to experiment with both high protein or fat in combo with low carb to determine which is satiating and it clearly, for me, is fat.

My experience with that horrid hunger made it very clear to me why at least 80% of those who lose their weight regain it. It isn't that all foolishly resort to the way they previously ate. It very well could be they are suddenly faced with unrelenting real physical hunger as the brain fights to bring the body back to what is "normal" for us. Guyenet talks a bit about homeostatic hunger and non homeostatic hunger in some of his podcasts (there are many). To me they are equally important and my experience has been there is no way to address the non homeostatic until the homeostatic is addressed. No amount of protein helped me with hunger unless it was well combined with fat. 50 grams of fat which is about what both of us were eating just didn't/doesn't work for me in maintenance.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I really hesitated to even respond last night but your words "always hungry" truly resonated with me. You're certainly eating adequate calories in my and your opinion. Your protein range of generally 150 to 200 is more than adequate. Your current choices in carbs are absolutely going in the same dastardly direction mine were headed. Another thing Guyenet talks about is that we don't want to become obese again yet our eating behaviors and food choices are not in sync with that.

I'll stop.

inertiastrength

I really hope that book comes to me in time for the rainy Canada Day long weekend we have. I may check out his podcast if I can find the quite time with the kids around.

My protein range today is 100g, fats being the same, and carbs around 70 with 20 being fibre.

I understand the common "under 20g" recommendation, but I'm not interested in ketosis and I would personally have difficulty hitting micros with that low a figure. I've had fat pretty evenly throughout the day and I am not ravenous like I was this week but still a little premature to be changing anything. I'm thinking it'll take at least a week or 2 to decide if these macros are better for me in terms of satiety.