Gymnema Sylvestre - Has anyone tried it?

MyriiStorm

I saw a Functional Medicine doctor last week (yay!) and one of her suggestions was to use gymnema sylvestre to try to curb sugar cravings. The interwebz, of course, have lots of info on the stuff, but I was wondering if anyone in this group has any personal experience.

A couple articles I found: https://lifespa.com/the-gymnema-effect-the-sugar-craving-solution/
http://www.healthline.com/health/diabetes/gymnema-future-treatment#overview1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2170951/

My biggest concern after reading the above (and a few others) is that it can increase insulin production. As we know, insulin resistance can be a big factor in T2D, so I'm not sure increasing insulin production would be beneficial, and might negate any positive effects the herb has.

cstehansen

Based on research I had done, I was using it to try to lower my BG. I was not concerned about raising insulin because I actually have low insulin. I did not see any improvement. However, as I go through this process of elimination on causes for my elevated BG, it could be that it is beta call dysfunction keeping my insulin low.

My suggestion is to see where your fasting insulin is to help you make a more informed decision. From what I could gather, the increase in insulin wasn't a huge spike so if you are not insulin resistant and don't already have high insulin, then I don't think taking this would be a problem.

MyriiStorm

That makes sense, @cstehansen. One of the tests the new doc ordered was a fasting insulin (my prior doctor wasn't interested in it), so I'm eager to see what the result of that is. I will hold off getting any gymnema until I see those results. Thanks for the suggestion!

MyriiStorm

The fasting insulin result was 22.5. I'm not sure what to make of that. It's high, but still in the "normal" range.

Any thoughts before I have my follow up appointment?

storygirl65

@MyriiStorm Not sure if the screenshot will come up, but it looks like that's an acceptable number. Are you having some type of issues that make you concerned about this number, I mean other the sugar cravings? Maybe after being off sugar for a while it will get easier to handle not having it, but be forewarned, once you have it again, it will again be hard to stop!

MyriiStorm

Thanks @storygirl65 for the screen shot. I'm T2D, so I'm wondering if I'm insulin resistant, since that seems to be par for the course for most T2Ds. I don't know if my fasting insulin level is indicative of insulin resistance or not, so I'm looking to all the folks here who are smarter than me to help me figure this out.

And, of course, I will follow up with the doctor in six weeks, per her instructions.

I know what you mean about the sugar cravings. I was doing well without it until Mother's Day, when my daughter sent me flowers and a box of chocolates to my office. I immediately opened the box and begged my co-workers to eat it ALL, but I had to have "just one." That "one" started the first stone rolling, and within a week the entire mountainside crashed down in a huge avalanche.

I had zero sugar yesterday, and zero sugar so far today. But I gotta tell ya, the cravings are intense. There's none in my house, so I should be good as long as I stay home. One day at a time. . .

KnitOrMiss

My Endocrinologist and PCP both flipped out with an insulin level of 9, and about had a heart attack over a 15. However, insulin is very dynamic, and I'd probably look at it in connection with your glucose fasting number. Because insulin is automatically released and normal meal times, will be released if your liver releases stored glycogen to level up your glucose levels at any point in time, etc.

I was told that a fasting level of 9, without high carb consumption in the days/weeks prior to test was definitely full on indicator of insulin resistance. Your mileage may vary.

Btw, my insulin numbers were in uIU/mL. I think that is a similar equivalent conversion to the numbers above. Different labs allow up to 19 or 23 on my results... And I was told that my fasting number should NEVER be that high, unless everything else is out of whack. But I could be completely wrong on that.

@Dragonwolf - didn't you have bad luck with numbers over 20 on fasting insulin?

KnitOrMiss

Oh, and if you insulin level is that high, I definitely would NOT want to increase it.

KnitOrMiss

I've used a combo of L-glutamine and some other aminos to help blunt that craving/compulsion to sugar... But that "see it/smell it/think of it" compulsion, I understand (from recent research) to be a dopamine response... Might be worth some research.

(P.S. I'm definitely not keto anymore, most of the time I'm far closer to the highest end of low carb really, and I still have some cravings - but I simply cannot binge the way I used to on just pure junk. It's a fight, because some foods definitely sneak past that response, but most bounce off...)

http://carbsyndrome.com/is-your-brain-two-quarts-low/

http://www.foodrenegade.com/how-beat-sugar-cravings-glutamine/

Those were some one the articles that got me started...

Dragonwolf

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

My Endocrinologist and PCP both flipped out with an insulin level of 9, and about had a heart attack over a 15. However, insulin is very dynamic, and I'd probably look at it in connection with your glucose fasting number. Because insulin is automatically released and normal meal times, will be released if your liver releases stored glycogen to level up your glucose levels at any point in time, etc.

I was told that a fasting level of 9, without high carb consumption in the days/weeks prior to test was definitely full on indicator of insulin resistance. Your mileage may vary.

Btw, my insulin numbers were in uIU/mL. I think that is a similar equivalent conversion to the numbers above. Different labs allow up to 19 or 23 on my results... And I was told that my fasting number should NEVER be that high, unless everything else is out of whack. But I could be completely wrong on that.

@Dragonwolf - didn't you have bad luck with numbers over 20 on fasting insulin?

Yep. Based on the relatively little data I can get my hands on, I can't seem to lose when my insulin goes over 15 or so (ie - when I'm able to get insulin tests, they've all been over 15 when I was struggling to lose weight and under 15 when I was successfully doing so).

Definitely check your glucose and, if the doctor ran it, C-Peptide. Those three together can give you a decent bead on your level of insulin sensitivity/resistance, but in my experience, your insulin levels are well into the prediabetes range, and if left unmanaged is pretty well on the way to full on diabetes.

@storygirl65's screen shot and the general standard reference ranges bother me, considering research shows that prediabetes can be detected with fasting insulin greater than 9 uIU/mL (9 mIU/L).

I hate that conventional medicine requires you to be almost sick to the point of no return for non-communicable diseases and disorders to be taken seriously and treated. This is one such instance.

I recommend checking out inositol and a high-quality cod liver oil supplementation (I'm a fan of Green Pastures' fermented CLO and high vitamin butter oil mix; pricey, but well worth the money). Inositol is vitamin B8, which is considered a non-essential pseudo-vitamin (IOW, our body usually makes what we need). However, some people seem to not have enough or have a higher need. Like the other B vitamins, it works by strengthening the nervous system, allowing the body to better communicate with itself. The end result is that it might be able to lower your insulin and blood sugar. CLO has a similar effect, though through the Omega-3 and (if you get the butter oil one) K2 pathways.

KnitOrMiss

@Dragonwolf - @MyriiStorm is already T2D, so prediabetes isn't the issue, but rather properly treating her T2D so that she can defeat it and be diabetes-free, if I read the above correctly!

cstehansen

According to my test from Boston Heart, optimal is under 15. My last 2 have been below 5. I am pre-diabetic (last A1c was 6.2) but not insulin resistant - weird combo my doc and I are trying to figure out.

KnitOrMiss

@cstehansen - last time mine was between 7 and 9 and my doctor wanted to double my Metformin... Just for laughs, if you have an chance to ask, I would love to know, just in general, what your Functional Doc says is optimal!

MyriiStorm

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

@Dragonwolf - @MyriiStorm is already T2D, so prediabetes isn't the issue, but rather properly treating her T2D so that she can defeat it and be diabetes-free, if I read the above correctly!

You beat me to it @KnitOrMiss. Thanks!

And the whole purpose of this particular thread was to pick y'alls brains about taking the gymnema. It sounds like the consensus is "no."

Thanks for the other supplement recommendations, too, @Dragonwolf and @KnitOrMiss. I will do some reading up on those.

cstehansen

MyriiStorm wrote: »

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

@Dragonwolf - @MyriiStorm is already T2D, so prediabetes isn't the issue, but rather properly treating her T2D so that she can defeat it and be diabetes-free, if I read the above correctly!

You beat me to it @KnitOrMiss. Thanks!

And the whole purpose of this particular thread was to pick y'alls brains about taking the gymnema. It sounds like the consensus is "no."

Thanks for the other supplement recommendations, too, @Dragonwolf and @KnitOrMiss. I will do some reading up on those.

I think the key is to find out if you are actually IR, and if so, to what extent. Although most T2D are IR, had I not changed to a doc that actually tested me, I would still be languishing in frustration with my former PCP and Endo who just wanted to treat me as if I were IR when that was not my issue. At least part of the issue I had was micronutrient deficiencies which, once corrected, have brought be back to pre-diabetic levels.

The odds are you are IR, and as such this would probably not be the best supplement choice. However, I think we have all heard the breakdown of the word "assume."

@KnitOrMiss - I believe Dr. Kraft was in the camp that normal was in the 5-10 range. My doc said for someone fully keto adapted (which I should be at this point) under 5 is to be expected if you are not IR.

ReesyIsLivingOnKeto

I have and it works. Hi there. Add me as a friend.

MyriiStorm

RisyCup wrote: »

I have and it works. Hi there. Add me as a friend.

What has been your experience? Were you using it to curb cravings? How soon did you notice results?

And do you know what effect, if any, it had on your insulin levels?

storygirl65

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

My Endocrinologist and PCP both flipped out with an insulin level of 9, and about had a heart attack over a 15. However, insulin is very dynamic, and I'd probably look at it in connection with your glucose fasting number. Because insulin is automatically released and normal meal times, will be released if your liver releases stored glycogen to level up your glucose levels at any point in time, etc.

I was told that a fasting level of 9, without high carb consumption in the days/weeks prior to test was definitely full on indicator of insulin resistance. Your mileage may vary.

Btw, my insulin numbers were in uIU/mL. I think that is a similar equivalent conversion to the numbers above. Different labs allow up to 19 or 23 on my results... And I was told that my fasting number should NEVER be that high, unless everything else is out of whack. But I could be completely wrong on that.

@Dragonwolf - didn't you have bad luck with numbers over 20 on fasting insulin?

I might be confused here. @KnitOrMiss is the number (9) you are referring to your HbA1c? I'm not up on the names, but is that the same thing as the as the fasting insulin result @MyriiStorm referenced, being 22.5? I just want to understand, after reading the thread, if 22.5 is the HbA1c, that indicates a blood glucose level that is off the charts! My gut is saying it's a different measure, but of course, I might be wrong. NVM, I looked it up; I see they are not the same.

KnitOrMiss

No, the 9 was a fasting insulin number. My A1C (HbA1c) is 5.4% or lower. Fasting insulin is a non standard test that measures the amount of insulin in the body, in a similar type of method to fasting glucose numbers, for non-insulin dependent people. The amount in insulin in the body generally should relate in some form or fashion to the glucose numbers, but if the A1C is high and insulin is high, that means something likely isn't working well there. If the insulin is low and A1C/fasting are high, that means there might not be enough insulin, etc. If insulin is high, but A1c/fasting are normal-ish - it generally points to insulin resistance. Insulin is made in the body by the pancreas (except for people with T1D/LADA whose pancreas no longer produce/release insulin) to process the flucose in the system...

Just for clarification.

Dragonwolf

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

@Dragonwolf - @MyriiStorm is already T2D, so prediabetes isn't the issue, but rather properly treating her T2D so that she can defeat it and be diabetes-free, if I read the above correctly!

I apparently missed that part. Either way, my point kind of still stands -- that number is, according to the study, "prediabetic" range, so not a good range to sit on one's laurels if they already have T2D (which many doctors are inclined to do, because they think diabetics can't manage their numbers to the point that they no longer appear diabetic).

MyriiStorm wrote: »

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

@Dragonwolf - @MyriiStorm is already T2D, so prediabetes isn't the issue, but rather properly treating her T2D so that she can defeat it and be diabetes-free, if I read the above correctly!

You beat me to it @KnitOrMiss. Thanks!

And the whole purpose of this particular thread was to pick y'alls brains about taking the gymnema. It sounds like the consensus is "no."

Thanks for the other supplement recommendations, too, @Dragonwolf and @KnitOrMiss. I will do some reading up on those.

To me, it doesn't really make sense to treat insulin resistant diabetes by pumping more insulin into one's body. Yeah, it lowers blood sugar, but if it does so by jacking up your insulin production, it's likely to burn out your pancreas in the long run, which will then make you reliant on external insulin. Such mechanisms have their use for things like getting blood sugar down from sky high, but that's not usually what medications like this are used for.

As for cravings management, start off by not letting yourself get too hungry. Eat bigger meals, or eat more meals if your cravings are triggered by hunger (I know I'm more likely to reach for the carbs if I let myself get too hungry). Don't worry about restricting calories for the time being and focus on identifying the source of the cravings and breaking it.

If they're not hunger-based, you might just have to tough it out. Go on a "sweet fast" for a month or so: no sources of sugar or sweet taste at all -- no fruit, no sweeteners of any type, no dairy containing lactose (butter, cream, and aged cheese allowed, but none others), no sweet vegetables (no peppers, no carrots, etc; stick to the greens). This kicks the cravings through what's known in psychology as "extinction." It sounds extreme and daunting, but such types of short term things are great for kicking old habits. If you can't go that extreme, "feed" your sweet cravings with fat -- cheese or bacon instead of candy, for example, or savory fat bombs instead of cupcakes (I'd still recommend avoiding sweeteners, because they just perpetuate the cravings).