Single and Looking;)
Colectable93
Posts: 38 Member
I am 54, 5'3" and weigh 240 looking for the best macro %'s...... to really take advantage of my new eating plan. I have been on Keto for a month now and so many different websites with so many different answers. Today I am starting IF 16/8 along with my Keto. I keep my carbs to 20, but really need some experienced advice on what to keep my fats and protein at. I have read that too much protein will turn to sugar. Any input, experiences or advice would be greatly appreciated. TIA
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Replies
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Protein is a volatile topic largely because it is individual. The more active you are and the less insulin resistant you are, the more protein you can eat without it affecting your blood sugar and insulin.
Also, the source of protein is hugely important. If you are getting good quality "complete" protein (generally from animal sources), you need less. If you are getting most of your protein from non-animal sources, you have to be sure to combine those sources to ensure you are getting all the amino acids you need to get to the point of having "complete" protein. You will need to have more, generally, to be able to not lose lean mass.
I have not been able to find any scientific studies on this next part, but it seems logical that if you have lots of incomplete protein, those would be the amino acids most likely to be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis (GNG). This is my theory just based on logic and all the research studies I have seen and the fact that the rate of GNG seems to be so variable from person to person.
If you have high quality protein and you are not an athlete looking to gain muscle mass, then you shouldn't NEED more than 1 g per kg of what your ideal body weight would be in order to maintain needed lean body mass (LBM).
You have to understand that you will lose some LBM, but that is good because some LBM is skin and other connective tissue of which you will need less as you get smaller. All LBM is not muscle.
As for fat, you do not need to force feed yourself fat. Keep your carbs where you have them. Make sure you get your minimum amount of protein at least. Then only eat enough fat to be satiated. Your body will pull any additional fat needed from what you have collected on your body up to this point in your life.
Good luck!6 -
cstehansen wrote: »As for fat, you do not need to force feed yourself fat. Keep your carbs where you have them. Make sure you get your minimum amount of protein at least. Then only eat enough fat to be satiated. Your body will pull any additional fat needed from what you have collected on your body up to this point in your life.
Good luck!
THIS!!2 -
Great advice above. ^^^
Hit your protein goal which should be at least 0.36 g per pound of body weight. For you that is around 80g or about 320 kcals. You could go a bit higher or lower.
If your carbs are around 20g, that is 5-10% of your calories or about 80 kcals.
That leaves the rest to be filled in with fat - dietary and/or body fat. If you are less hungry eat less fat. If you are more hungry eat more fat (or protein).2 -
cstehansen wrote: »Protein is a volatile topic largely because it is individual. The more active you are and the less insulin resistant you are, the more protein you can eat without it affecting your blood sugar and insulin.
If you have high quality protein and you are not an athlete looking to gain muscle mass, then you shouldn't NEED more than 1 g per kg of what your ideal body weight would be in order to maintain needed lean body mass (LBM).
You do get a wide range of ideas about protein.
The calculator I like best is at ketogains, which is a good resource generally.
https://ketogains.com/ketogains-calculator/
Personally, I think my previous goal of around 1g/kg of ideal body weight was too low for my needs. Chris Masterjohn, a Ph.D. academic nutrition expert, uses 1g/lb of ideal lean body mass, and I didn't find my blood glucose drifting higher when I raised my protein goal 40-50g to reach this level.3 -
Great thanks so much for all the info. I do eat meat for protein, bacon, steak and hamburger, and I occasionally have a whey protein shake before I go and do my aqua exercises each day. Your input made great sense and had reasoning behind it. Thanks1
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Regarding excess steak becoming essentially... cake:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html
The body mostly turns protein into glucose based on need: http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
It is hard to eat enough excess protein to remove you from ketosis entirely, often it doesn't change anything:
http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Regarding excess steak becoming essentially... cake:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html
The body mostly turns protein into glucose based on need: http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
It is hard to eat enough excess protein to remove you from ketosis entirely, often it doesn't change anything:
http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
Understand that GNG is not the only issue if weight loss is the desired outcome. From the first article cited here is the quote:The problem with applying the results of these experiments to the question of excess protein consumption is that infusion might bypass some mechanism that increases GNG when the protein is actually eaten. For instance, it is known that protein consumption stimulates a great deal of glucagon (along with insulin) ⁷, and it might be suggested that this glucagon would thereby increase GNG. A counterargument to that possibility is that although glucagon stimulates GNG in many conditions, its action appears to always be overridden by insulin ⁸. This means that the insulin that is produced when eating protein will counteract the glucagon and GNG will not be affected (except in the case of insulin-dependent diabetes, where insulin is neither created nor responded to in the normal fashion).
I have put the key part in bold. Regardless of whether it stimulates GNG, protein does stimulate insulin production. The higher the insulin, the more your body resists burning fat and the more it works to store fat and the more it suppresses leptin (hormone which makes you feel full).
Protein is also the only macronutrient that can't be stored in any meaningful way. We can store about 500 g of glucose in glycogen (liver and muscles) on average. Obviously, we can also store fat. Protein can be burned for fuel even if it is not converted to glucose.
If one wants to burn fat (body or dietary), one key to do this most effectively is to have insulin levels low. As is in the graph above, a 25 oz steak would cause your body to produce 10 units of insulin which is equal to the 10 units of insulin produced by 100 g of pasta.
Looking at the nutrition of those, that would mean that about 125 g of protein (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3689/2 - had to multiply by 25 since this site did not give 25 oz as a portion size) produces the same insulin response of 31 g of carbs plus 6 g of protein (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5780/2).
This means that 1 g of carb produces about 3.8 times as much insulin as protein. Although protein is significantly better than carbs at not raising insulin, it is considerably worse than fat as fat raises insulin so slightly that it is barely measurable.
Unlike carbs, protein is absolutely positively needed by your body. It is dangerous to not get enough. However, eating far more than you need is not only going to not help you lose weight, it could hinder your weight loss.
Even looking at the Steffanson experiment where he ate only meat and fat and was basically 0 carb outside the minimal amounts in animal products, he got roughly 80% of his calories from fat.
Once the minimum protein requirement is met (which varies based on size, genetics, activity level, etc.), there is no benefit from raising protein higher.3 -
cstehansen wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Regarding excess steak becoming essentially... cake:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html
The body mostly turns protein into glucose based on need: http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
It is hard to eat enough excess protein to remove you from ketosis entirely, often it doesn't change anything:
http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
Understand that GNG is not the only issue if weight loss is the desired outcome. From the first article cited here is the quote:The problem with applying the results of these experiments to the question of excess protein consumption is that infusion might bypass some mechanism that increases GNG when the protein is actually eaten. For instance, it is known that protein consumption stimulates a great deal of glucagon (along with insulin) ⁷, and it might be suggested that this glucagon would thereby increase GNG. A counterargument to that possibility is that although glucagon stimulates GNG in many conditions, its action appears to always be overridden by insulin ⁸. This means that the insulin that is produced when eating protein will counteract the glucagon and GNG will not be affected (except in the case of insulin-dependent diabetes, where insulin is neither created nor responded to in the normal fashion).
I have put the key part in bold. Regardless of whether it stimulates GNG, protein does stimulate insulin production. The higher the insulin, the more your body resists burning fat and the more it works to store fat and the more it suppresses leptin (hormone which makes you feel full).
Protein is also the only macronutrient that can't be stored in any meaningful way. We can store about 500 g of glucose in glycogen (liver and muscles) on average. Obviously, we can also store fat. Protein can be burned for fuel even if it is not converted to glucose.
If one wants to burn fat (body or dietary), one key to do this most effectively is to have insulin levels low. As is in the graph above, a 25 oz steak would cause your body to produce 10 units of insulin which is equal to the 10 units of insulin produced by 100 g of pasta.
Looking at the nutrition of those, that would mean that about 125 g of protein (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3689/2 - had to multiply by 25 since this site did not give 25 oz as a portion size) produces the same insulin response of 31 g of carbs plus 6 g of protein (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5780/2).
This means that 1 g of carb produces about 3.8 times as much insulin as protein. Although protein is significantly better than carbs at not raising insulin, it is considerably worse than fat as fat raises insulin so slightly that it is barely measurable.
Unlike carbs, protein is absolutely positively needed by your body. It is dangerous to not get enough. However, eating far more than you need is not only going to not help you lose weight, it could hinder your weight loss.
Even looking at the Steffanson experiment where he ate only meat and fat and was basically 0 carb outside the minimal amounts in animal products, he got roughly 80% of his calories from fat.
Once the minimum protein requirement is met (which varies based on size, genetics, activity level, etc.), there is no benefit from raising protein higher.
You can't compare a 100% carnivore diet to a keto diet really though.
I disagree with that last part too because hunger control while pursuing a calorie deficit for fat loss is a viable benefit. Protein digests slowly and the amino acids that aren't needed at that time get kind of recycled and remain available as needed hours later.
And even though the chart shows the same insulin requirements for the steak and pasta, the whole point is that the action of that insulin is not the same.
For protein, it goes to work on the amino acids. Repairing and building lean tissue. Any protein that is converted for energy uses energy in the process and that little bit helps while pursuing that calorie deficit for fat loss. So I'll take it!
With the pasta, it would supply more glucose than the body could use at that time unless maybe you're running a marathon or something so it will store what it doesn't need as glycogen if you're not topped off already or more likely as fat.
That's a very different likelihood of new fat creation with the protein. Which is just as important as putting your body in that lower insulin environment of using bodyfat instead of dietary fat for fuel. Which is easier to do when you can manage to eat only a couple times a day.
My own experience has been that increasing protein and lowering fat changed my physical appearance dramatically, even without weight loss, making me look leaner even with my very brief, half assed attempts to exercise. Which I also did before I raised protein and reduced fat.
I couldn't just reduce fat (still considered high fat) without eating more of something or I would be very hungry. Eating more protein made that possible.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »cstehansen wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Regarding excess steak becoming essentially... cake:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html
The body mostly turns protein into glucose based on need: http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
It is hard to eat enough excess protein to remove you from ketosis entirely, often it doesn't change anything:
http://caloriesproper.com/dietary-protein-does-not-negatively-impact-blood-glucose-control/
Understand that GNG is not the only issue if weight loss is the desired outcome. From the first article cited here is the quote:The problem with applying the results of these experiments to the question of excess protein consumption is that infusion might bypass some mechanism that increases GNG when the protein is actually eaten. For instance, it is known that protein consumption stimulates a great deal of glucagon (along with insulin) ⁷, and it might be suggested that this glucagon would thereby increase GNG. A counterargument to that possibility is that although glucagon stimulates GNG in many conditions, its action appears to always be overridden by insulin ⁸. This means that the insulin that is produced when eating protein will counteract the glucagon and GNG will not be affected (except in the case of insulin-dependent diabetes, where insulin is neither created nor responded to in the normal fashion).
I have put the key part in bold. Regardless of whether it stimulates GNG, protein does stimulate insulin production. The higher the insulin, the more your body resists burning fat and the more it works to store fat and the more it suppresses leptin (hormone which makes you feel full).
Protein is also the only macronutrient that can't be stored in any meaningful way. We can store about 500 g of glucose in glycogen (liver and muscles) on average. Obviously, we can also store fat. Protein can be burned for fuel even if it is not converted to glucose.
If one wants to burn fat (body or dietary), one key to do this most effectively is to have insulin levels low. As is in the graph above, a 25 oz steak would cause your body to produce 10 units of insulin which is equal to the 10 units of insulin produced by 100 g of pasta.
Looking at the nutrition of those, that would mean that about 125 g of protein (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3689/2 - had to multiply by 25 since this site did not give 25 oz as a portion size) produces the same insulin response of 31 g of carbs plus 6 g of protein (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5780/2).
This means that 1 g of carb produces about 3.8 times as much insulin as protein. Although protein is significantly better than carbs at not raising insulin, it is considerably worse than fat as fat raises insulin so slightly that it is barely measurable.
Unlike carbs, protein is absolutely positively needed by your body. It is dangerous to not get enough. However, eating far more than you need is not only going to not help you lose weight, it could hinder your weight loss.
Even looking at the Steffanson experiment where he ate only meat and fat and was basically 0 carb outside the minimal amounts in animal products, he got roughly 80% of his calories from fat.
Once the minimum protein requirement is met (which varies based on size, genetics, activity level, etc.), there is no benefit from raising protein higher.
You can't compare a 100% carnivore diet to a keto diet really though.
I disagree with that last part too because hunger control while pursuing a calorie deficit for fat loss is a viable benefit. Protein digests slowly and the amino acids that aren't needed at that time get kind of recycled and remain available as needed hours later.
And even though the chart shows the same insulin requirements for the steak and pasta, the whole point is that the action of that insulin is not the same.
For protein, it goes to work on the amino acids. Repairing and building lean tissue. Any protein that is converted for energy uses energy in the process and that little bit helps while pursuing that calorie deficit for fat loss. So I'll take it!
With the pasta, it would supply more glucose than the body could use at that time unless maybe you're running a marathon or something so it will store what it doesn't need as glycogen if you're not topped off already or more likely as fat.
That's a very different likelihood of new fat creation with the protein. Which is just as important as putting your body in that lower insulin environment of using bodyfat instead of dietary fat for fuel. Which is easier to do when you can manage to eat only a couple times a day.
My own experience has been that increasing protein and lowering fat changed my physical appearance dramatically, even without weight loss, making me look leaner even with my very brief, half assed attempts to exercise. Which I also did before I raised protein and reduced fat.
I couldn't just reduce fat (still considered high fat) without eating more of something or I would be very hungry. Eating more protein made that possible.
I think you are missing what I am trying to say. I can't tell someone the exact amount of protein that is optimal for them just like you can't. I am glad you found a level that works for you. What I am saying is based on the science. Insulin + protein is used in building and repairing muscle. However, you can eat all the protein you want. If you don't do the activity to grow the muscle, it won't grow. How much activity is needed to grow muscle is dependent on one's size, genetics, etc.
If more protein is taken in than can be used, that insulin produced will not be used to grow muscle. It will be used to suppress use of fat and to store fat. And that protein will be burned for fuel before fat is burned.
Yes, protein is more satiating than carbs. For most, it is not more satiating than fat.
Again, I am glad you found a level of protein that works for you just as each of us needs to do. I found when I cut my level of protein a bit, the loose skin I had tightened up because some of that LBM that was unneeded skin got recycled. I would not say that would happen for everyone. Even with that, I am higher protein than many who eat keto because I do work out both with cardio and weight training 5 days a week and am very active the other 2 days. My average daily calorie burn according to my Fitbit is around 3400-3500 which I believe is fairly active because I have been maintaining my weight with a caloric intake pretty close to that level.
I am only trying to encourage the OP to get adequate protein that is needed from quality sources and then experiment from there to find the right level that works for them and not be frightened into thinking a) must get massive amounts of protein or I will lose all my muscle, or b) must try to be low carb AND low fat.
edit: I am higher in protein in terms of grams, not % as I generally am under 20% protein, but at my caloric level, that is still up around 2 g per kg of body weight. As I believe I am at ideal body weight currently.1 -
This title made me think of the MFP pick up line thread that rears it's head once in a while out in the main communities. So full of shake your head-ness. lol2
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Great advice above. ^^^
Hit your protein goal which should be at least 0.36 g per pound of body weight. For you that is around 80g or about 320 kcals. You could go a bit higher or lower.
If your carbs are around 20g, that is 5-10% of your calories or about 80 kcals.
That leaves the rest to be filled in with fat - dietary and/or body fat. If you are less hungry eat less fat. If you are more hungry eat more fat (or protein).
That sounds really low to me.... I mean, I am 112lbs... x 0.36g, converts to 40.32g, or 1.43 ounces...?? someone's got a decimal point awry... surely??
80g is 2.83 ounces?? That's not even a decent sized burger!0 -
AlexandraCarlyle wrote: »Great advice above. ^^^
Hit your protein goal which should be at least 0.36 g per pound of body weight. For you that is around 80g or about 320 kcals. You could go a bit higher or lower.
If your carbs are around 20g, that is 5-10% of your calories or about 80 kcals.
That leaves the rest to be filled in with fat - dietary and/or body fat. If you are less hungry eat less fat. If you are more hungry eat more fat (or protein).
That sounds really low to me.... I mean, I am 112lbs... x 0.36g, converts to 40.32g, or 1.43 ounces...?? someone's got a decimal point awry... surely??
80g is 2.83 ounces?? That's not even a decent sized burger!
You have to realize the majority of the weight of the meat is water. For instance, looking at 1 oz of 80/20 ground beef (28 g), there is 5 g of protein and 6 g of fat - http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/6203/2
There will be trace weight in minerals and such, but the majority of the other 17 g of weight are water.1 -
You miss my point.
I think the whole amount - notwithstanding water, minerals or whatnot - is seriously low....0 -
0.36g per pound does seem remarkably low to me too.
The protein formula I know is 0.8g to 1.2g (or was it 1.8?) per pound of lean body weight. The higher level was for people who do a lot of strength training. My lean body weight (total weight minus body fat weight) is around 140 lbs, so on this formula my goal would be 112g of protein per day.
I think I got that protein formula at ketogains.com?2 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/
This was done to try to determine the minimum requirement on average.
As is stated in this, "At submaintenance levels of protein intake, a diminished turnover of tissue protein is accompanied by a reduced catabolic rate for the amino acids liberated by protein breakdown (Young and Scrimshaw, 1977). Similarly, turnover rate is increased with increased intake. In this way, the tissue protein pool can, within limits, enter a new steady state appropriate for the diminished or increased protein intake from food."
That is basically technical speak for saying our bodies are smarter than we are and if we get less, our bodies will more efficiently use the amino acids from protein that are broken down in the recycling process and if we take in more, then it will be less efficient. We can basically train our bodies to work better with more or less than the standard amount. The table shows the average need is 84 mg / kg which translates to 0.84 g per kg.
The math they use, if you really dig into the details, shows the need is closer to 0.6 g per kg, but, because the WHO wanted to be certain to not encourage protein deficiency, they added a fudge factor to make it 0.84.
I think part of the reason for that fudge factor is that not all proteins are created equal. If you follow the other WHO recommendations which push toward veganism, then the quality of protein goes way down in terms of completeness and one would therefore need more to ensure getting all the different amino acids.
I also think part of the push in the general realm for more protein is that those in the medical/nutritional world realize high carb intake is bad, but they can't bring themselves to admit eating fat is ok, so they push higher protein.2 -
Let's be clear this is discussing the minimum needed to meet basic needs.
I personally also follow the Ketogains recommendations and I'm not interested in getting bare minimum.
I did that for quite a while when I started keto and though my scale weight stopped when I increased protein, my fat loss accelerated and that's all the proof I need to know what was best for me.
I wish I hadn't been so worried about overeating protein in the beginning.6 -
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