Strikes at McDonald's, Wendy's to pay employees $15 hour.
Replies
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So, I just re-read a lot of this and I want to state a few things....
Being judgmental of people with less money is fun!
Argumentum ad Hominem
Regardless of what anyone's "opinion" is based on, the true facts stand is. These people are in "entry level" jobs which require little skill and are easily replaced by other workers or automation. No one is going to pay them $15 an hour regardless of a portion of the population's opinion.0 -
So, I just re-read a lot of this and I want to state a few things....
Being judgmental of people with less money is fun!
Argumentum ad Hominem
Regardless of what anyone's "opinion" is based on, the true facts stand is. These people are in "entry level" jobs which require little skill and are easily replaced by other workers or automation. No one is going to pay them $15 an hour regardless of a portion of the population's opinion.
Argumentum ad Hominem? If you are going to throw around the fancy words you learn on Google, then I suggest maybe looking them up, because almost every argument against these workers on every page of this thread in some way attacks the character of the workers being debated. Lazy, greedy, I think that clearly qualifies as Argumentum ad Hominem. I think it perfectly acceptable that if everyone here found it so easy to judge those who they obviously consider beneath them, I should be able to judge those who I deem beneath me. The arrogance is exactly the same, and I think it only fair since if I were a fast food worker and logged in to this debate I would feel very degraded.
As to the rest of what you just said, yes, I know, I agreed with you. A standard practice in any negotiation is to start higher than you want so you have a place to go to. If these people would secretly settle for 10 dollars an hour and started the negotiations at 10, they wouldn't get it....but starting at 15 gives them leeway.0 -
Argumentum ad Hominem? If you are going to throw around the fancy words you learn on Google, then I suggest maybe looking them up, because almost every argument against these workers on every page of this thread in some way attacks the character of the workers being debated. Lazy, greedy, I think that clearly qualifies as Argumentum ad Hominem. I think it perfectly acceptable that if everyone here found it so easy to judge those who they obviously consider beneath them, I should be able to judge those who I deem beneath me. The arrogance is exactly the same, and I think it only fair since if I were a fast food worker and logged in to this debate I would feel very degraded.
As to the rest of what you just said, yes, I know, I agreed with you. A standard practice in any negotiation is to start higher than you want so you have a place to go to. If these people would secretly settle for 10 dollars an hour and started the negotiations at 10, they wouldn't get it....but starting at 15 gives them leeway.
Argument ad hominem is a reference to your past posts. This is a poor debate tactic that attempts to render the opposition’s views incorrect by attacking the individual rather than countering with facts. These posts also contain egregious amounts of cognitive bias/dissonance. Likely to preserve one’s ego through the delusion that the opposition is of lowly character. Especially since everyone against him or her uses facts instead of opinions and emotions. All this succeeds in doing is derailing the topic while rendering the attacker’s views dubious; it reeks of logical fallacy. A higher education helps prevent this, it nurtures one’s ability of reflective thought as opposed personal bias.
Like it or not, fast food is a job hence “doesn’t earn career pay”. Managerial positions maybe the exception depending on training and education. In fact, these strikes did little to fast food companies’ market share. Since the strikes virtually all their stocks are trading even higher so you’ll see no sympathy from the corporate level.
But you did manage to convince me of one thing. Due to your hostility and lack of factual relevancy, all future posts will be hidden via ignore.0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.0 -
Quoting adrian_indy so robdel302 can see.It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.
I read a few articles about the strikes and it said they were nation wide, but I, as I said earlier, do not advocate a blanket raise for all individuals in every state. My concern is for the fast food workers living in areas where the cost of living is high...something a lot of people on these threads are willfully ignoring and they are doing so in a bunk comparison of their own lives. If you graduated college, live in Indiana, and make 15 dollars an hour you make more than a McDonalds worker who was paid 15 dollars an hour. The reason for this is that Indiana has a .89 overall cost of living adjustment where as NYC has a 1.27 overall and places like Hoboken have a 1.6. All I am advocating for (and where I differ from the protestors) is that the wages, especially in high COL areas be adjusted so that the workers can at least afford the bare necessities. As far the cost of their product going up, I don't think a slight increase in wages for McD's across the board would have a huge impact, while I dare to say that MC D franchises located in large cities, even when adjusting for the increased cost of business there, still have a very high profit due to their insane amount of customer base.0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.
I read a few articles about the strikes and it said they were nation wide, but I, as I said earlier, do not advocate a blanket raise for all individuals in every state. My concern is for the fast food workers living in areas where the cost of living is high...something a lot of people on these threads are willfully ignoring and they are doing so in a bunk comparison of their own lives. If you graduated college, live in Indiana, and make 15 dollars an hour you make more than a McDonalds worker who was paid 15 dollars an hour. The reason for this is that Indiana has a .89 overall cost of living adjustment where as NYC has a 1.27 overall and places like Hoboken have a 1.6. All I am advocating for (and where I differ from the protestors) is that the wages, especially in high COL areas be adjusted so that the workers can at least afford the bare necessities. As far the cost of their product going up, I don't think a slight increase in wages for McD's across the board would have a huge impact, while I dare to say that MC D franchises located in large cities, even when adjusting for the increased cost of business there, still have a very high profit due to their insane amount of customer base.
Now... I don't know for certain, but it was my understanding, that most companies perform cost-of-living surveys and make adjustments where needed. This might only be corporate stores that perform this type of task, but as I stated before, if an employee is a high performer, they can generally negotiate a better wage for themselves at any rate. You don't just work for a company for years and stay at the same rate of pay unless you just aren't asking for more money, in which case, they will usually wait until you do.0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.
I read a few articles about the strikes and it said they were nation wide, but I, as I said earlier, do not advocate a blanket raise for all individuals in every state. My concern is for the fast food workers living in areas where the cost of living is high...something a lot of people on these threads are willfully ignoring and they are doing so in a bunk comparison of their own lives. If you graduated college, live in Indiana, and make 15 dollars an hour you make more than a McDonalds worker who was paid 15 dollars an hour. The reason for this is that Indiana has a .89 overall cost of living adjustment where as NYC has a 1.27 overall and places like Hoboken have a 1.6. All I am advocating for (and where I differ from the protestors) is that the wages, especially in high COL areas be adjusted so that the workers can at least afford the bare necessities. As far the cost of their product going up, I don't think a slight increase in wages for McD's across the board would have a huge impact, while I dare to say that MC D franchises located in large cities, even when adjusting for the increased cost of business there, still have a very high profit due to their insane amount of customer base.
Now... I don't know for certain, but it was my understanding, that most companies perform cost-of-living surveys and make adjustments where needed. This might only be corporate stores that perform this type of task, but as I stated before, if an employee is a high performer, they can generally negotiate a better wage for themselves at any rate. You don't just work for a company for years and stay at the same rate of pay unless you just aren't asking for more money, in which case, they will usually wait until you do.
I agree about the raises, but I think we are talking about raising the base pay of these workers, not just paying more for those who show good performance. And to be honest, I don't know if I would trust any corporations COL survey, but have been known to be cynical, lol.
But I can't stress this enough, and maybe it's due to the near moronic tribal mentality that two party politics has accustomed us to, that we only have two choices, but I do not agree with a blanket 15 for everyone in the US regardless of area code, but I do think that in higher COL we need to pay these people more than what they are making. At the end of the day, someone has to push the broom. Some one has to flip the burger, some one has to deliver the newspaper. Should they be able to afford a middle class life style? Nope. Should they be able to be remotely middle class? No. However, I do not think in the USA anyone willing to work full time at any job should be destitute or near it.0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.
I read a few articles about the strikes and it said they were nation wide, but I, as I said earlier, do not advocate a blanket raise for all individuals in every state. My concern is for the fast food workers living in areas where the cost of living is high...something a lot of people on these threads are willfully ignoring and they are doing so in a bunk comparison of their own lives. If you graduated college, live in Indiana, and make 15 dollars an hour you make more than a McDonalds worker who was paid 15 dollars an hour. The reason for this is that Indiana has a .89 overall cost of living adjustment where as NYC has a 1.27 overall and places like Hoboken have a 1.6. All I am advocating for (and where I differ from the protestors) is that the wages, especially in high COL areas be adjusted so that the workers can at least afford the bare necessities. As far the cost of their product going up, I don't think a slight increase in wages for McD's across the board would have a huge impact, while I dare to say that MC D franchises located in large cities, even when adjusting for the increased cost of business there, still have a very high profit due to their insane amount of customer base.
Now... I don't know for certain, but it was my understanding, that most companies perform cost-of-living surveys and make adjustments where needed. This might only be corporate stores that perform this type of task, but as I stated before, if an employee is a high performer, they can generally negotiate a better wage for themselves at any rate. You don't just work for a company for years and stay at the same rate of pay unless you just aren't asking for more money, in which case, they will usually wait until you do.
I agree about the raises, but I think we are talking about raising the base pay of these workers, not just paying more for those who show good performance. And to be honest, I don't know if I would trust any corporations COL survey, but have been known to be cynical, lol.
But I can't stress this enough, and maybe it's due to the near moronic tribal mentality that two party politics has accustomed us to, that we only have two choices, but I do not agree with a blanket 15 for everyone in the US regardless of area code, but I do think that in higher COL we need to pay these people more than what they are making. At the end of the day, someone has to push the broom. Some one has to flip the burger, some one has to deliver the newspaper. Should they be able to afford a middle class life style? Nope. Should they be able to be remotely middle class? No. However, I do not think in the USA anyone willing to work full time at any job should be destitute or near it.
Okay... so does that also go for public employees as well then? Because I make less than $15 an hour with 2 degrees and only manage to survive due to child support. A raise for me would mean an increase in taxes, that people don't want to pay, where is the raise for fast food employees supposed to come from?
The fact of the matter is that inflation has impacted EVERYONE'S cost of living, and very few people have seen the pay increases to offset them. I'm sure there are lots of fast food employees that could use an increase, especially since now, they cannot work more than 30 hours a week. But hell, as a public employee, I haven't seen a raise in 7 years, and I had to deal with inflation and increasing insurance costs as well. And I worked to get an education to live this way in service to the public. Aren't I deserving?0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.
I read a few articles about the strikes and it said they were nation wide, but I, as I said earlier, do not advocate a blanket raise for all individuals in every state. My concern is for the fast food workers living in areas where the cost of living is high...something a lot of people on these threads are willfully ignoring and they are doing so in a bunk comparison of their own lives. If you graduated college, live in Indiana, and make 15 dollars an hour you make more than a McDonalds worker who was paid 15 dollars an hour. The reason for this is that Indiana has a .89 overall cost of living adjustment where as NYC has a 1.27 overall and places like Hoboken have a 1.6. All I am advocating for (and where I differ from the protestors) is that the wages, especially in high COL areas be adjusted so that the workers can at least afford the bare necessities. As far the cost of their product going up, I don't think a slight increase in wages for McD's across the board would have a huge impact, while I dare to say that MC D franchises located in large cities, even when adjusting for the increased cost of business there, still have a very high profit due to their insane amount of customer base.
Now... I don't know for certain, but it was my understanding, that most companies perform cost-of-living surveys and make adjustments where needed. This might only be corporate stores that perform this type of task, but as I stated before, if an employee is a high performer, they can generally negotiate a better wage for themselves at any rate. You don't just work for a company for years and stay at the same rate of pay unless you just aren't asking for more money, in which case, they will usually wait until you do.
I agree about the raises, but I think we are talking about raising the base pay of these workers, not just paying more for those who show good performance. And to be honest, I don't know if I would trust any corporations COL survey, but have been known to be cynical, lol.
But I can't stress this enough, and maybe it's due to the near moronic tribal mentality that two party politics has accustomed us to, that we only have two choices, but I do not agree with a blanket 15 for everyone in the US regardless of area code, but I do think that in higher COL we need to pay these people more than what they are making. At the end of the day, someone has to push the broom. Some one has to flip the burger, some one has to deliver the newspaper. Should they be able to afford a middle class life style? Nope. Should they be able to be remotely middle class? No. However, I do not think in the USA anyone willing to work full time at any job should be destitute or near it.
Okay... so does that also go for public employees as well then? Because I make less than $15 an hour with 2 degrees and only manage to survive due to child support. A raise for me would mean an increase in taxes, that people don't want to pay, where is the raise for fast food employees supposed to come from?
The fact of the matter is that inflation has impacted EVERYONE'S cost of living, and very few people have seen the pay increases to offset them. I'm sure there are lots of fast food employees that could use an increase, especially since now, they cannot work more than 30 hours a week. But hell, as a public employee, I haven't seen a raise in 7 years, and I had to deal with inflation and increasing insurance costs as well. And I worked to get an education to live this way in service to the public. Aren't I deserving?
Are you asking me if Public employees have the right to ask for more money? Sure they do. I am sure that in many circumstance, our public employees are underpaid and I often think too many citizens vilify our government employees when they speak up for themselves. As to everything else, I simply cannot make an educated opinion because there are so many x-factors in peoples personal lives. I have no idea what you do for a living, how many kids you have, what degrees you earned, ect. And yes, you make less than 15, but how much less? And where do you live. What is the cost of living? If it's 1.1 compared to the rest of our nation and the McD employee is making the exact same wage as you , but lives in an area that has a col fo 1.4....you are making a lot more money.
That being said, if I were to use the debating tactics of those here who were against the pay increase and used character assassination against these fast food workers, I could easily say to you....your life is your own problem. No one made you have those kids, no one forced you to get married or divorced, no one made you pick two degrees when combined still earn less than 30k a year. See how ****ish that sounds. And it does nothing to solve the problem. I realize the economy is bad and I really wish all of these people were having an easier time, but I would rather pay people a little more even if I do a slight increase in goods than see another huge influx of people who need government assistance or give up altogether and milk that welfare money for the rest of their lives.0 -
Argumentum ad Hominem? If you are going to throw around the fancy words you learn on Google, then I suggest maybe looking them up, because almost every argument against these workers on every page of this thread in some way attacks the character of the workers being debated. Lazy, greedy, I think that clearly qualifies as Argumentum ad Hominem. I think it perfectly acceptable that if everyone here found it so easy to judge those who they obviously consider beneath them, I should be able to judge those who I deem beneath me. The arrogance is exactly the same, and I think it only fair since if I were a fast food worker and logged in to this debate I would feel very degraded.
As to the rest of what you just said, yes, I know, I agreed with you. A standard practice in any negotiation is to start higher than you want so you have a place to go to. If these people would secretly settle for 10 dollars an hour and started the negotiations at 10, they wouldn't get it....but starting at 15 gives them leeway.
Argument ad hominem is a reference to your past posts. This is a poor debate tactic that attempts to render the opposition’s views incorrect by attacking the individual rather than countering with facts. These posts also contain egregious amounts of cognitive bias/dissonance. Likely to preserve one’s ego through the delusion that the opposition is of lowly character. Especially since everyone against him or her uses facts instead of opinions and emotions. All this succeeds in doing is derailing the topic while rendering the attacker’s views dubious; it reeks of logical fallacy. A higher education helps prevent this, it nurtures one’s ability of reflective thought as opposed personal bias.
Like it or not, fast food is a job hence “doesn’t earn career pay”. Managerial positions maybe the exception depending on training and education. In fact, these strikes did little to fast food companies’ market share. Since the strikes virtually all their stocks are trading even higher so you’ll see no sympathy from the corporate level.
But you did manage to convince me of one thing. Due to your hostility and lack of factual relevancy, all future posts will be hidden via ignore.
Wow--that didn't take long. You seem to have an awfully delicate interpretation of the term "debate".0 -
It is nice to see that your selective outrage is only directed at me. And if you have truly blocked me, it is because you know that I am right. Previous posters here have continually attacked the character of the workers in question and I have not heard your righteous anger, threats of blocking, or dime store psychology once...because they agree with you on the subject. You have stood by passively as a whole group of people due to what ever circumstances are in these jobs and let them be characterized as of low-character.
But just for fun....
"No, you don't get effing $15 dollars to flip burgers you lazy #@$#@$#%#$@T^" I guess you found this to be a highly educated, well formed opinion.
"they can't even figure out how to wipe tables or sweep floors! " This person must have a PHD, very educated opinion.
"high school dropouts who think they deserve what everyone else their age has, without the work. " You probably blocked this person as well, because this is pretty harsh.
"A high minimum wage would cater to the lazy portion of populations that would get the most pay out of the least amount of work" This is your quote....and you dare me of using opinions and not facts. The arrogance of almost everyone of your arguments is astounding. Where did you learn so much about your version of economic theory....was it working for one of the largest socialist organizations in the world, the US military?
Almost every post against increases in their wages was laced with stereotypes, bias and vitriol, and now that I have used the same tactics against individuals instead of generalizing about a whole segment of our population, you dare scramble for the moral high ground and act like you are above it? Is this what your higher education taught you, lol? Your arrogance throughout this whole debate was apparent from the beginning, but your last post is simply astounding.
Look... all judgments aside (I was once a fast food worker, myself), increasing the pay of fast food workers across the board is an economic disaster. If the individual is a good, reliable worker, then it is not unusual for them to receive payraises. I actually do know someone who was a fast food employee who made $15 an hour as a shift leader. That's a non-management position. But he was experienced, dependable, and highly productive. He earned that wage through his performance. Anyone has the potential to do the same. So why is it unreasonable to expect people to earn and negotiate that type of wage individually rather than demanding a blanket raise for everyone including people who may not deserve it. Oh, and would inevitably impact the cost of the product and change the way the industry works.
I've pointed this out before, but the true cost of labor is not just wages. Companies also have to pay for training, workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, and in instances where these companies actually employ full-time workers, health insurance. Those costs have to be covered... and despite what the masses believe, a company has to make profit, otherwise what is the point of operating, if you only ever make enough to cover your bottom-line.
I read a few articles about the strikes and it said they were nation wide, but I, as I said earlier, do not advocate a blanket raise for all individuals in every state. My concern is for the fast food workers living in areas where the cost of living is high...something a lot of people on these threads are willfully ignoring and they are doing so in a bunk comparison of their own lives. If you graduated college, live in Indiana, and make 15 dollars an hour you make more than a McDonalds worker who was paid 15 dollars an hour. The reason for this is that Indiana has a .89 overall cost of living adjustment where as NYC has a 1.27 overall and places like Hoboken have a 1.6. All I am advocating for (and where I differ from the protestors) is that the wages, especially in high COL areas be adjusted so that the workers can at least afford the bare necessities. As far the cost of their product going up, I don't think a slight increase in wages for McD's across the board would have a huge impact, while I dare to say that MC D franchises located in large cities, even when adjusting for the increased cost of business there, still have a very high profit due to their insane amount of customer base.
Now... I don't know for certain, but it was my understanding, that most companies perform cost-of-living surveys and make adjustments where needed. This might only be corporate stores that perform this type of task, but as I stated before, if an employee is a high performer, they can generally negotiate a better wage for themselves at any rate. You don't just work for a company for years and stay at the same rate of pay unless you just aren't asking for more money, in which case, they will usually wait until you do.
I know of a few McD's in this state (I won't speak for all, only those I experienced through friends and family working there) where most of the workers start over minimum wage. In southern parts of the state it isn't unusual to see signs stating that they are hiring for $10 an hour or more. The southern part of the state does have a higher cost of living. Since most are franchises, I don't think you can put out a blanket statement that they all pay x for starting wages.0 -
Next....what's with the generalizing that people in these fast food positions are lazy? Have you ever worked in any service industry. True, it's not rocket science and it is monotonous...but it can be hard work....as hard as most of you are doing in your air-conditioned offices..
And let's talk about your "skilled" labor. Unless you are a rocket scientist, surgeon, or some other outstanding profession...whether or not you got that BS degree that taught you absolutely nothing about the real world or the actual job you would be doing, your jobs in all likelihood are not all that complicated either. But if we are going to stand in judgment of people who are scraping by at these crap jobs, I have to say it is only fair that I stand in judgment of ninnies who have 2-3 degrees and are STILL struggling. I mean, come on.
I have worked in food service (fast food included) for 5 years... I know how lazy folks can be (they got the raises too, while I was doing their work... this is a true story)... Is it hard work? Sure it is... but that does not negate the fact that these jobs are in abundance.
The point of skilled vs unskilled is, you don't need to be all that intelligent when it comes to working these jobs. I'm not saying that the people working these jobs are stupid, just that the most you might have to know is how to read at an 8th grade level as opposed to taking years of training (and I'm not thinking about me with my B.Sc in Information Technology sitting in my overly airconditioned office here, I'm talking about plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc... who are probably making less and without any benefits at all than what the McD's worker is demanding). My point is and always has been, there are many people right now, that are working even more physically demanding jobs that need a heckuva lot more training and knowledge that don't and probably won't (unless they own their own business or work for some national franchise) make near as much for the work they do. I will not apologize for believing that someone crawling around in a hot and stuffy crawl space to make sure the A/C, plumbing, electricity deserves to make the $15 (and many in our area make barely that) more so than someone that has to press a button on the fryolater.
Though I will concede your points about cost of living... if NYC can support a $15/hour fast food employee, than by all means... however, here in North Texas, that just isn't feasible or reasonable not when other skilled and professional workers barely start out at that (let alone make that).0 -
That being said, if I were to use the debating tactics of those here who were against the pay increase and used character assassination against these fast food workers, I could easily say to you....your life is your own problem. No one made you have those kids, no one forced you to get married or divorced, no one made you pick two degrees when combined still earn less than 30k a year. See how ****ish that sounds. And it does nothing to solve the problem. I realize the economy is bad and I really wish all of these people were having an easier time, but I would rather pay people a little more even if I do a slight increase in goods than see another huge influx of people who need government assistance or give up altogether and milk that welfare money for the rest of their lives.
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.0 -
BAM!That being said, if I were to use the debating tactics of those here who were against the pay increase and used character assassination against these fast food workers, I could easily say to you....your life is your own problem. No one made you have those kids, no one forced you to get married or divorced, no one made you pick two degrees when combined still earn less than 30k a year. See how ****ish that sounds. And it does nothing to solve the problem. I realize the economy is bad and I really wish all of these people were having an easier time, but I would rather pay people a little more even if I do a slight increase in goods than see another huge influx of people who need government assistance or give up altogether and milk that welfare money for the rest of their lives.
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.0 -
That being said, if I were to use the debating tactics of those here who were against the pay increase and used character assassination against these fast food workers, I could easily say to you....your life is your own problem. No one made you have those kids, no one forced you to get married or divorced, no one made you pick two degrees when combined still earn less than 30k a year. See how ****ish that sounds. And it does nothing to solve the problem. I realize the economy is bad and I really wish all of these people were having an easier time, but I would rather pay people a little more even if I do a slight increase in goods than see another huge influx of people who need government assistance or give up altogether and milk that welfare money for the rest of their lives.
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.
The money is still coming out of our pocket in both cases because companies that pay below a living wage are using public assistance to supplement the pay of their employees.0 -
That being said, if I were to use the debating tactics of those here who were against the pay increase and used character assassination against these fast food workers, I could easily say to you....your life is your own problem. No one made you have those kids, no one forced you to get married or divorced, no one made you pick two degrees when combined still earn less than 30k a year. See how ****ish that sounds. And it does nothing to solve the problem. I realize the economy is bad and I really wish all of these people were having an easier time, but I would rather pay people a little more even if I do a slight increase in goods than see another huge influx of people who need government assistance or give up altogether and milk that welfare money for the rest of their lives.
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.
The money is still coming out of our pocket in both cases because companies that pay below a living wage are using public assistance to supplement the pay of their employees.
Then raise minimum wage so the lowest paid in all industries can make a living wage. But all that does is raise the minimum income requirements for public assistance, which in turn raises taxes, which decreases the amount of money citizens are bringing home in their paychecks, which means they buy less goods, which means companies must raise their prices.
Economics is a cycle. Inflation can enter that circle at any point.0 -
That being said, if I were to use the debating tactics of those here who were against the pay increase and used character assassination against these fast food workers, I could easily say to you....your life is your own problem. No one made you have those kids, no one forced you to get married or divorced, no one made you pick two degrees when combined still earn less than 30k a year. See how ****ish that sounds. And it does nothing to solve the problem. I realize the economy is bad and I really wish all of these people were having an easier time, but I would rather pay people a little more even if I do a slight increase in goods than see another huge influx of people who need government assistance or give up altogether and milk that welfare money for the rest of their lives.
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.
Yup, as a fellow public servant only with a city water department.0 -
Next....what's with the generalizing that people in these fast food positions are lazy? Have you ever worked in any service industry. True, it's not rocket science and it is monotonous...but it can be hard work....as hard as most of you are doing in your air-conditioned offices..
And let's talk about your "skilled" labor. Unless you are a rocket scientist, surgeon, or some other outstanding profession...whether or not you got that BS degree that taught you absolutely nothing about the real world or the actual job you would be doing, your jobs in all likelihood are not all that complicated either. But if we are going to stand in judgment of people who are scraping by at these crap jobs, I have to say it is only fair that I stand in judgment of ninnies who have 2-3 degrees and are STILL struggling. I mean, come on.
I have worked in food service (fast food included) for 5 years... I know how lazy folks can be (they got the raises too, while I was doing their work... this is a true story)... Is it hard work? Sure it is... but that does not negate the fact that these jobs are in abundance.
The point of skilled vs unskilled is, you don't need to be all that intelligent when it comes to working these jobs. I'm not saying that the people working these jobs are stupid, just that the most you might have to know is how to read at an 8th grade level as opposed to taking years of training (and I'm not thinking about me with my B.Sc in Information Technology sitting in my overly airconditioned office here, I'm talking about plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc... who are probably making less and without any benefits at all than what the McD's worker is demanding). My point is and always has been, there are many people right now, that are working even more physically demanding jobs that need a heckuva lot more training and knowledge that don't and probably won't (unless they own their own business or work for some national franchise) make near as much for the work they do. I will not apologize for believing that someone crawling around in a hot and stuffy crawl space to make sure the A/C, plumbing, electricity deserves to make the $15 (and many in our area make barely that) more so than someone that has to press a button on the fryolater.
Though I will concede your points about cost of living... if NYC can support a $15/hour fast food employee, than by all means... however, here in North Texas, that just isn't feasible or reasonable not when other skilled and professional workers barely start out at that (let alone make that).
You are debating me, it seems, on facts we agree on. I never said that fast food workers even in high COL areas should get the full 15, I just said I understand them picking that high of a number so they had room to negotiate. And to be fair, I feel like a lot of the miscommunication here is that we are all talking about wages...but not specifying what COL areas we are using as examples. Should a McDonald's worker make more than an electrician, plumber, or heating and air person when they both live in a high cost of living area. No. That, as you have pointed out, is absurd.
http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-plumber-l-new-york-ny-jobs.html
I googled this site, and it says here in NYC a plumber makes on average $41,000 a year (which I think is a little low considering the amount of **** they have to put up with) and I believe that is salary.
On the other hand, NYC Fast Food workders are paid 7.25 an hour, which is roughly, what, 14,500 a year on a 40 hour work week? So even if you raised their pay to the 15 dollars an hour (something I am in no way advocating) they still wouldn't make as much as your plumber.
I think you might be comparing wages from low COL areas when assessing skilled laborers, and comparing the desired wages of 15 dollars an hour in higher COL areas and making a comparison, which, like I said, leads to the miscommunication. But to reiterate, we are in agreement that fast food workers should not make as much as skilled laborers in the same zipcode.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
^I don't know how to turn a second persons quotes blue.
As stated above, but with different examples, a McDonald's worker in Indiana make minimum wage as far as I know, for 14,000 a year roughly, while in as far back as 2005, a rookie police officer for the IMPD gets 41,000 a year and a take home car. Even when, once again, adjusting the fast food workers pay (even to the 15 which I do not advocate, they still make roughly 11,000 dollars less a year than a cop, so you are both drawing a comparison as if giving fast food workers a raise would elevate them to the wage level of the previously mentioned professions.
As far as military pay goes, they also happen to factor in cost of living and give soldiers COLA, and people on active duty who live outside the states as I did are given money for their souse depending on their home zipcode. In 2002 when I was married, I was paid an extra 700 (roughly) a month. If my wife lived in San Diego (which means a whale's vagina) I would have been paid 2500 extra or around that.
And no where do I state I do not care about the plight of any other worker in the US, I am simple pointing out that while several skilled laborers in every field might be feeling the pinch, or even worse, be laid off, I do not believe American citizens in any job who are willing to work full time should be so poor they would be practically destitute without government assistance.
And lastly, yes McD's is a huge corporation, but as pointed out before, most of them do not get to dive into corporate money, which is why, once again, I do not advocate paying fast food workers 10--15 dollars an hour in Indiana or other low COL states. However, I will assume ( and I concede that I might be wrong since I could not find the figures, but I think I am right) that a NYC McD's makes good profits simply because of the high customer rate.0 -
Ok, if NYC minimum wage is the same (in pratice) as the rest of the State then I can see their argument (not sure I agree with the totality but I can see it)... however, $15/hr for a fast food worker in Texas is ridiculous... and fast food workers here in Texas were striking for the same thing, $15/hr.
Sorry Adrian, my brain isn't quite in full on debate mode... ;-)0 -
Ok, if NYC minimum wage is the same (in pratice) as the rest of the State then I can see their argument (not sure I agree with the totality but I can see it)... however, $15/hr for a fast food worker in Texas is ridiculous... and fast food workers here in Texas were striking for the same thing, $15/hr.
Sorry Adrian, my brain isn't quite in full on debate mode... ;-)
Nope, you are fine, and we agree in your Texas example. I think it is just a negotiation tactic.0 -
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.
^I don't know how to turn a second persons quotes blue.
As stated above, but with different examples, a McDonald's worker in Indiana make minimum wage as far as I know, for 14,000 a year roughly, while in as far back as 2005, a rookie police officer for the IMPD gets 41,000 a year and a take home car. Even when, once again, adjusting the fast food workers pay (even to the 15 which I do not advocate, they still make roughly 11,000 dollars less a year than a cop, so you are both drawing a comparison as if giving fast food workers a raise would elevate them to the wage level of the previously mentioned professions.
As far as military pay goes, they also happen to factor in cost of living and give soldiers COLA, and people on active duty who live outside the states as I did are given money for their souse depending on their home zipcode. In 2002 when I was married, I was paid an extra 700 (roughly) a month. If my wife lived in San Diego (which means a whale's vagina) I would have been paid 2500 extra or around that.
And no where do I state I do not care about the plight of any other worker in the US, I am simple pointing out that while several skilled laborers in every field might be feeling the pinch, or even worse, be laid off, I do not believe American citizens in any job who are willing to work full time should be so poor they would be practically destitute without government assistance.
And lastly, yes McD's is a huge corporation, but as pointed out before, most of them do not get to dive into corporate money, which is why, once again, I do not advocate paying fast food workers 10--15 dollars an hour in Indiana or other low COL states. However, I will assume ( and I concede that I might be wrong since I could not find the figures, but I think I am right) that a NYC McD's makes good profits simply because of the high customer rate.
As I stated, I was once a fast food worker. I only qualified for assistance because I had a child. And you know, I didn't stop striving for better until I could no longer qualify for assistance (and I still really haven't stopped as I'm currently working on my MBA). If fast food workers want to make a living wage, then they can pursue the same path as the rest of us did, and that's the point. People start with fast food, they don't end there.
Economically, increasing wages to $15 an hour (and I realize you aren't advocating that as much as an income rebalancing which I can support) would have a pretty devastating impact. The price of fast food would go up, which would mean the price of "premium" restaurant food would go up, which means the standard consumers would stop going out and spending money on food, and its really undetermined the impact that it would have on the retail industry because less money spent in restaurants means less money for servers who are also consumers AND I'm sure there would be a direct correlation between consumers going out to eat and then, shopping in the same trip.
It just doesn't seem like you are looking at this from an economic standpoint at all. Sure, these fast food restaurants should do some wage surveys to make certain that they are competitive, and should likely consider some wage adjustments. But that's for the company to decide. Almost every state is "right-to-work", the fast food industry is NOT unionized, and these companies are actually within their rights to fire every last person that is picketing. It wouldn't help their public image much, but it would not be something that they would not eventually recover from.0 -
But, that's kind of my point. Nothing is stopping fast food workers from pursuing better opportunities. That's what I did, and now I don't have to sling burgers to get by.
I work for a state transportation agency. We have men and women on these roads every day serving as first responders who are barely making above minimum wage. There are police force and firemen that haven't seen a raise in years and have watched their pensions grow smaller because governments can't stretch tax dollars far enough, and citizens don't want to pay more. Let's not forget military and federal employees and the pay and benefits that they have had to lose simply because Congress couldn't approve a budget.
Why are the fast food workers so much more important to you than the people that keep you in a safe and comfortable society?
Personally, I think its easier for you to tell someone else how to spend their money than it is for you to want to spend a little of your own. McDonald's is a massive corporation, and its easy to wag our fingers and tell them they should have to pay their workers more. But when it comes to paying taxes so a public employee can make a living wage, suddenly the story is reversed. Why? Because the money is coming out of your pocket, and not McDonald's.
^I don't know how to turn a second persons quotes blue.
As stated above, but with different examples, a McDonald's worker in Indiana make minimum wage as far as I know, for 14,000 a year roughly, while in as far back as 2005, a rookie police officer for the IMPD gets 41,000 a year and a take home car. Even when, once again, adjusting the fast food workers pay (even to the 15 which I do not advocate, they still make roughly 11,000 dollars less a year than a cop, so you are both drawing a comparison as if giving fast food workers a raise would elevate them to the wage level of the previously mentioned professions.
As far as military pay goes, they also happen to factor in cost of living and give soldiers COLA, and people on active duty who live outside the states as I did are given money for their souse depending on their home zipcode. In 2002 when I was married, I was paid an extra 700 (roughly) a month. If my wife lived in San Diego (which means a whale's vagina) I would have been paid 2500 extra or around that.
And no where do I state I do not care about the plight of any other worker in the US, I am simple pointing out that while several skilled laborers in every field might be feeling the pinch, or even worse, be laid off, I do not believe American citizens in any job who are willing to work full time should be so poor they would be practically destitute without government assistance.
And lastly, yes McD's is a huge corporation, but as pointed out before, most of them do not get to dive into corporate money, which is why, once again, I do not advocate paying fast food workers 10--15 dollars an hour in Indiana or other low COL states. However, I will assume ( and I concede that I might be wrong since I could not find the figures, but I think I am right) that a NYC McD's makes good profits simply because of the high customer rate.
As I stated, I was once a fast food worker. I only qualified for assistance because I had a child. And you know, I didn't stop striving for better until I could no longer qualify for assistance (and I still really haven't stopped as I'm currently working on my MBA). If fast food workers want to make a living wage, then they can pursue the same path as the rest of us did, and that's the point. People start with fast food, they don't end there.
Economically, increasing wages to $15 an hour (and I realize you aren't advocating that as much as an income rebalancing which I can support) would have a pretty devastating impact. The price of fast food would go up, which would mean the price of "premium" restaurant food would go up, which means the standard consumers would stop going out and spending money on food, and its really undetermined the impact that it would have on the retail industry because less money spent in restaurants means less money for servers who are also consumers AND I'm sure there would be a direct correlation between consumers going out to eat and then, shopping in the same trip.
It just doesn't seem like you are looking at this from an economic standpoint at all. Sure, these fast food restaurants should do some wage surveys to make certain that they are competitive, and should likely consider some wage adjustments. But that's for the company to decide. Almost every state is "right-to-work", the fast food industry is NOT unionized, and these companies are actually within their rights to fire every last person that is picketing. It wouldn't help their public image much, but it would not be something that they would not eventually recover from.
Bettering yourself is great, and I agree that people in Fast Food jobs shouldn't strive just to be there for all time...but I am not talking about making these people well paid or even reasonably well paid, I am trying to make the point that they should be able to afford rent, public transportation, basic utilities preferably with out the government assistance. I believe that even at 9-10 dollars an hour, people will still be as motivated to move on because the jobs suck. As far as the cyclical nature of the economy, there seems to be a more conservative mind set similar to yours and a more liberal mind set that is the opposite, that if we paid them more, it would actually stimulate the economy. In the end, I don't think either argument stands out because we have had both mind sets in office and you can track both of their successes and failures.
But the crux of our argument comes to this, I think we are both making assumptions about specific fast food joints and both run the risk of being right or wrong, or maybe both> While I agree that 15 dollars an hour nation wide would be catastrophic, I do not see paying NYC workers, or Boston or anywhere else with high COL 10 bucks an hour would be as devastating as the fast food companies are claiming. I am assuming that in a city with that much cash and so many citizens, they have enough profit to, at an individual store, soak up the losses of that pay increase. This, however, might lead to increased costs at the place in question because there are two types of greed destroying this nation, people who abuse welfare and unemployment, and people who think that running a business should accumulate enough money to shampoo their crotch with caviar or it's just not worth doing.0 -
As I stated, I was once a fast food worker. I only qualified for assistance because I had a child. And you know, I didn't stop striving for better until I could no longer qualify for assistance (and I still really haven't stopped as I'm currently working on my MBA). If fast food workers want to make a living wage, then they can pursue the same path as the rest of us did, and that's the point. People start with fast food, they don't end there.
Economically, increasing wages to $15 an hour (and I realize you aren't advocating that as much as an income rebalancing which I can support) would have a pretty devastating impact. The price of fast food would go up, which would mean the price of "premium" restaurant food would go up, which means the standard consumers would stop going out and spending money on food, and its really undetermined the impact that it would have on the retail industry because less money spent in restaurants means less money for servers who are also consumers AND I'm sure there would be a direct correlation between consumers going out to eat and then, shopping in the same trip.
It just doesn't seem like you are looking at this from an economic standpoint at all. Sure, these fast food restaurants should do some wage surveys to make certain that they are competitive, and should likely consider some wage adjustments. But that's for the company to decide. Almost every state is "right-to-work", the fast food industry is NOT unionized, and these companies are actually within their rights to fire every last person that is picketing. It wouldn't help their public image much, but it would not be something that they would not eventually recover from.
Bettering yourself is great, and I agree that people in Fast Food jobs shouldn't strive just to be there for all time...but I am not talking about making these people well paid or even reasonably well paid, I am trying to make the point that they should be able to afford rent, public transportation, basic utilities preferably with out the government assistance. I believe that even at 9-10 dollars an hour, people will still be as motivated to move on because the jobs suck. As far as the cyclical nature of the economy, there seems to be a more conservative mind set similar to yours and a more liberal mind set that is the opposite, that if we paid them more, it would actually stimulate the economy. In the end, I don't think either argument stands out because we have had both mind sets in office and you can track both of their successes and failures.
But the crux of our argument comes to this, I think we are both making assumptions about specific fast food joints and both run the risk of being right or wrong, or maybe both> While I agree that 15 dollars an hour nation wide would be catastrophic, I do not see paying NYC workers, or Boston or anywhere else with high COL 10 bucks an hour would be as devastating as the fast food companies are claiming. I am assuming that in a city with that much cash and so many citizens, they have enough profit to, at an individual store, soak up the losses of that pay increase. This, however, might lead to increased costs at the place in question because there are two types of greed destroying this nation, people who abuse welfare and unemployment, and people who think that running a business should accumulate enough money to shampoo their crotch with caviar or it's just not worth doing.
Let's just for a minute put aside the COL argument because I agree with you on that point.
The fact of the matter is that were it not for my child support, I would qualify for government assistance, as a state employee, making $12.65 an hour (finally did the math). So the reality is that an increase to $10 an hour isn't really going to get anyone off of public assistance. Also, I stated earlier that many fast food workers ARE making around $9 - $10 an hour presently if they have earned performance raises and have made some real attempts to negotiate. The only fast food workers that are actually making minimum wage are the ones that are at entry-level or are not wise enough to realize that they have negotiating power. In which case, those individuals need to request a meeting with their manager and discuss the issue. Picketing for a nationwide blanket increase to a ridiculous sum that exceeds what many public employees are making is asking for trouble considering that most states are "right-to-work" and they can be fired if the company decides to go that route.0 -
most states are "right-to-work"
That actually only means that you can't be forced to join a union. You mean "employment at will" or "at-will employment."0 -
As I stated, I was once a fast food worker. I only qualified for assistance because I had a child. And you know, I didn't stop striving for better until I could no longer qualify for assistance (and I still really haven't stopped as I'm currently working on my MBA). If fast food workers want to make a living wage, then they can pursue the same path as the rest of us did, and that's the point. People start with fast food, they don't end there.
Economically, increasing wages to $15 an hour (and I realize you aren't advocating that as much as an income rebalancing which I can support) would have a pretty devastating impact. The price of fast food would go up, which would mean the price of "premium" restaurant food would go up, which means the standard consumers would stop going out and spending money on food, and its really undetermined the impact that it would have on the retail industry because less money spent in restaurants means less money for servers who are also consumers AND I'm sure there would be a direct correlation between consumers going out to eat and then, shopping in the same trip.
It just doesn't seem like you are looking at this from an economic standpoint at all. Sure, these fast food restaurants should do some wage surveys to make certain that they are competitive, and should likely consider some wage adjustments. But that's for the company to decide. Almost every state is "right-to-work", the fast food industry is NOT unionized, and these companies are actually within their rights to fire every last person that is picketing. It wouldn't help their public image much, but it would not be something that they would not eventually recover from.
Bettering yourself is great, and I agree that people in Fast Food jobs shouldn't strive just to be there for all time...but I am not talking about making these people well paid or even reasonably well paid, I am trying to make the point that they should be able to afford rent, public transportation, basic utilities preferably with out the government assistance. I believe that even at 9-10 dollars an hour, people will still be as motivated to move on because the jobs suck. As far as the cyclical nature of the economy, there seems to be a more conservative mind set similar to yours and a more liberal mind set that is the opposite, that if we paid them more, it would actually stimulate the economy. In the end, I don't think either argument stands out because we have had both mind sets in office and you can track both of their successes and failures.
But the crux of our argument comes to this, I think we are both making assumptions about specific fast food joints and both run the risk of being right or wrong, or maybe both> While I agree that 15 dollars an hour nation wide would be catastrophic, I do not see paying NYC workers, or Boston or anywhere else with high COL 10 bucks an hour would be as devastating as the fast food companies are claiming. I am assuming that in a city with that much cash and so many citizens, they have enough profit to, at an individual store, soak up the losses of that pay increase. This, however, might lead to increased costs at the place in question because there are two types of greed destroying this nation, people who abuse welfare and unemployment, and people who think that running a business should accumulate enough money to shampoo their crotch with caviar or it's just not worth doing.
Let's just for a minute put aside the COL argument because I agree with you on that point.
The fact of the matter is that were it not for my child support, I would qualify for government assistance, as a state employee, making $12.65 an hour (finally did the math). So the reality is that an increase to $10 an hour isn't really going to get anyone off of public assistance. Also, I stated earlier that many fast food workers ARE making around $9 - $10 an hour presently if they have earned performance raises and have made some real attempts to negotiate. The only fast food workers that are actually making minimum wage are the ones that are at entry-level or are not wise enough to realize that they have negotiating power. In which case, those individuals need to request a meeting with their manager and discuss the issue. Picketing for a nationwide blanket increase to a ridiculous sum that exceeds what many public employees are making is asking for trouble considering that most states are "right-to-work" and they can be fired if the company decides to go that route.
I think these are all valid points. So what is the cut off for the various government assistances, and are they different State to State? I tried looking it up but couldn't find a solid number a person had to be under, at least in Indiana.0 -
Wow--that didn't take long. You seem to have an awfully delicate interpretation of the term "debate".
Excessive use of personal stories and the term "I" is often avoided in real debates because it can send a biased message which makes it harder for anyone else to relate. Individuals are ignored when avoiding relevant issues while resorting assumptions about everyone with opposing views. While we can all understand the position of feeling looked down on, not all of us saw it that way (although it may have been interpreted as such and if so, I'm sorry). There is no reason to debate with people who argue against character rather than things that are important to the topic. Especially when not counter-arguing things that are relevant to their position. Personally, I wouldn't call these workers lazy; irrational if they truly think $15 is reasonable. The economy is why they need a raise but it's the reason it can't happen as well; the proverbial rock and a hard place.
It's likely because many of the things mention were too difficult to follow. (FYI, I dislike using personal stories but this maybe relevant). My third degree is catered towards business so a lot of important things mentioned can be difficult to follow. But it does allow me to see things from a business perspective. Economically and business-wise these raises just aren't going to happen without drastic changes. Most of us have been in these low wage positions and can see why they don't earn much. We believed we deserved more money when we were low skilled workers, looking back we see this is incorrect. Many (not all) of those working fast food and the like have never worked up to higher paying positions. It's beyond their comprehension to understand WHY they need more skills to earn more pay. Dunning-Kruger at its finest.
In hindsight, these articles mentioning NYC could be anywhere even in New Jersey as most of the surrounding area is considered its suburbs. Cost of living within the actual city is excessively high for anyone making minimum wage to live downtown. If they're commuting then that is their choice. There are plenty of fast food restaurants around for them to get a job closer to home. Many strikers admitted they're striking because they can always find work elsewhere. But if they can find work elsewhere, why don't they save money and not commute? It makes no sense. Lastly, there is also a policy meeting with the Fed this week. It could start a snowball leading to economic disaster for borrowers. These people NEED to find a better way to manage money and get higher paying jobs. $15/hour might not even cover rent in a few years.0 -
As I stated, I was once a fast food worker. I only qualified for assistance because I had a child. And you know, I didn't stop striving for better until I could no longer qualify for assistance (and I still really haven't stopped as I'm currently working on my MBA). If fast food workers want to make a living wage, then they can pursue the same path as the rest of us did, and that's the point. People start with fast food, they don't end there.
Economically, increasing wages to $15 an hour (and I realize you aren't advocating that as much as an income rebalancing which I can support) would have a pretty devastating impact. The price of fast food would go up, which would mean the price of "premium" restaurant food would go up, which means the standard consumers would stop going out and spending money on food, and its really undetermined the impact that it would have on the retail industry because less money spent in restaurants means less money for servers who are also consumers AND I'm sure there would be a direct correlation between consumers going out to eat and then, shopping in the same trip.
It just doesn't seem like you are looking at this from an economic standpoint at all. Sure, these fast food restaurants should do some wage surveys to make certain that they are competitive, and should likely consider some wage adjustments. But that's for the company to decide. Almost every state is "right-to-work", the fast food industry is NOT unionized, and these companies are actually within their rights to fire every last person that is picketing. It wouldn't help their public image much, but it would not be something that they would not eventually recover from.
Bettering yourself is great, and I agree that people in Fast Food jobs shouldn't strive just to be there for all time...but I am not talking about making these people well paid or even reasonably well paid, I am trying to make the point that they should be able to afford rent, public transportation, basic utilities preferably with out the government assistance. I believe that even at 9-10 dollars an hour, people will still be as motivated to move on because the jobs suck. As far as the cyclical nature of the economy, there seems to be a more conservative mind set similar to yours and a more liberal mind set that is the opposite, that if we paid them more, it would actually stimulate the economy. In the end, I don't think either argument stands out because we have had both mind sets in office and you can track both of their successes and failures.
But the crux of our argument comes to this, I think we are both making assumptions about specific fast food joints and both run the risk of being right or wrong, or maybe both> While I agree that 15 dollars an hour nation wide would be catastrophic, I do not see paying NYC workers, or Boston or anywhere else with high COL 10 bucks an hour would be as devastating as the fast food companies are claiming. I am assuming that in a city with that much cash and so many citizens, they have enough profit to, at an individual store, soak up the losses of that pay increase. This, however, might lead to increased costs at the place in question because there are two types of greed destroying this nation, people who abuse welfare and unemployment, and people who think that running a business should accumulate enough money to shampoo their crotch with caviar or it's just not worth doing.
Let's just for a minute put aside the COL argument because I agree with you on that point.
The fact of the matter is that were it not for my child support, I would qualify for government assistance, as a state employee, making $12.65 an hour (finally did the math). So the reality is that an increase to $10 an hour isn't really going to get anyone off of public assistance. Also, I stated earlier that many fast food workers ARE making around $9 - $10 an hour presently if they have earned performance raises and have made some real attempts to negotiate. The only fast food workers that are actually making minimum wage are the ones that are at entry-level or are not wise enough to realize that they have negotiating power. In which case, those individuals need to request a meeting with their manager and discuss the issue. Picketing for a nationwide blanket increase to a ridiculous sum that exceeds what many public employees are making is asking for trouble considering that most states are "right-to-work" and they can be fired if the company decides to go that route.
I think these are all valid points. So what is the cut off for the various government assistances, and are they different State to State? I tried looking it up but couldn't find a solid number a person had to be under, at least in Indiana.
Well it does vary from state-to-state and from program-to-program. Welfare agencies don't generally make that information widely available, but they generally provide you the income requirements when you apply. I can say that raising their pay to $15 an hour would probably raise them above the allowable limits, but then you would still have public employees, many with degrees, that would still be eligible for assistance. And like I said, the inflation that raising the fast food employees' wages would inevitably cause would lead to the allowable limits for public assistance being raised as well.0 -
most states are "right-to-work"
That actually only means that you can't be forced to join a union. You mean "employment at will" or "at-will employment."
Well in GA, it's referred to as "right-to-work".0
