"The End of Overeating, Taking Control of the Insatiable North American Appetite"
kpk54
Posts: 4,474 Member
That's a book by Dr. David A. Kessler. Not new. 2012 as I recall. With current discussion in the forum, I thought this might be helpful to some. He has many YouTube videos. They're fairly repetitious with his "talking points" (meaning that as a positive) since that is what speakers do to highlight/reinforce/explain vast topics in a short time frame.
Some of his talking points (as I perceive them) are:
1) The ineffectiveness of willpower
2) Conditioned behaviors regarding foods and eating
3) The social acceptability of eating
4) The synergism created with "taste combinations" (salt, fat, sugar)
5) The Supersizing of America
6) Chronic eating though not hungry. Do we want to be fat? No. Why then, do we OVER eat?
7) The CHANGING of the SOCIAL NORM
8) The role of food manufacturers/suppliers
9) The value of REAL food
10) LEARNING, MEMORY, HABIT, MOTIVATION.
I didn't care for his efforts when he was Chair of the FDA in the 1990s because I was employed in the tobacco industry... and one of his biggest efforts was anti-smoking /anti-tobacco. He was successful wasn't he? Yes. And who among us would say that the human population's health has suffered with decreased tobacco use? That's another topic. He's since moved on to the fattening of the American population.
Take a look at the video. Discuss if so inclined. As an ex behavior therapist, his talks speak volumes to me but it is interesting how "hard" it was to recognize then embrace some of his concepts in regards to my personal habit of over eating. Between Kessler and Guyenet (The Hungry Brain) I finally got my needed focus. I'm still bombarded with food cues. They are EVERYWHERE in my environment. I choose my reaction to those food cues and win, most of the time.
The video will not appeal to all. Hope it turns on a light for someone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OqJhbSeUI8
Some of his talking points (as I perceive them) are:
1) The ineffectiveness of willpower
2) Conditioned behaviors regarding foods and eating
3) The social acceptability of eating
4) The synergism created with "taste combinations" (salt, fat, sugar)
5) The Supersizing of America
6) Chronic eating though not hungry. Do we want to be fat? No. Why then, do we OVER eat?
7) The CHANGING of the SOCIAL NORM
8) The role of food manufacturers/suppliers
9) The value of REAL food
10) LEARNING, MEMORY, HABIT, MOTIVATION.
I didn't care for his efforts when he was Chair of the FDA in the 1990s because I was employed in the tobacco industry... and one of his biggest efforts was anti-smoking /anti-tobacco. He was successful wasn't he? Yes. And who among us would say that the human population's health has suffered with decreased tobacco use? That's another topic. He's since moved on to the fattening of the American population.
Take a look at the video. Discuss if so inclined. As an ex behavior therapist, his talks speak volumes to me but it is interesting how "hard" it was to recognize then embrace some of his concepts in regards to my personal habit of over eating. Between Kessler and Guyenet (The Hungry Brain) I finally got my needed focus. I'm still bombarded with food cues. They are EVERYWHERE in my environment. I choose my reaction to those food cues and win, most of the time.
The video will not appeal to all. Hope it turns on a light for someone.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OqJhbSeUI8 5
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I worked for a behavioral therapist as a researcher while in grad school and then for a few years post school. I find Kessler super interesting and his discussion of disrupting the neural pathways is super interesting. I have many "cues" that have developed over the years that take constant monitoring to disrupt!3
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I think that's why keto works for so many people who were not successful with any other method - it literally alters brain chemistry...I suspect that somewhere it the neurological changes it unwires or deactivates these signals, in the same way that it deactivates migraines or seizures.
Also, I think he hit on something key with the social aspects of it. It is totally socially acceptable to eat anything all the time. That would never have been permitted when I was a kid. We had breakfast, lunch, after school snack, and dinner. No one in my family would have been scavenging in the refrigerator because they were peckish at 2pm or 5pm or 8pm - those were not times that we were allowed to eat, you waited until dinner, or you should have eaten more at dinner and you waited for breakfast. Desserts were special occasion only, like birthday or holidays. However, in today's culture, I could wander around the office with a doughnut or slice of cake at 2pm and no one would even blink. No one would tell me I was going to ruin my dinner, no one would comment unless it was to ask if there as something left in the break room. It's not lunch time, and it's not a special occasion, but sweets and eating are an all day event now, in a way that they simply weren't 30 years ago. I couldn't wander around the office with a cigarette or a beer without getting a huge crap-ton of lip from my coworkers, but food is an acceptable vice. I'm a healthy weight so it's not a concern for me if I eat sweets at 2pm, but the response would be the same if I were 200 lbs heavier, no one would say anything even if it were obviously putting my health at risk with my eating.6 -
I worked for a behavioral therapist as a researcher while in grad school and then for a few years post school. I find Kessler super interesting and his discussion of disrupting the neural pathways is super interesting. I have many "cues" that have developed over the years that take constant monitoring to disrupt!
I recall early drives to the beach. My beach buddy would always want to stop at Hardee's for a hot Cinnamon Biscuit. Hardee's was sure to place billboards along the way just in case she forgot. I could be fairly strong with "no I don't want one" so long as I didn't go inside and get the pleasant giant whiff of the biscuits baking. Then of course there is always the factor of socialization. Why should I feel guilty that I don't want to eat a cinnamon biscuit to "make memories" of our beach trip? "Oh come on. It's just a cinnamon biscuit". And yes, I'd sometimes have a piece because the smell was throughout the car and I was being tempted by the smell. And if my memory were better, I bet there were times she bought an extra knowing I "really wanted one".
I've written before that I no longer "struggle" but I always have to pay attention. Just a bit ago I opened the refrigerator door to get some half and half for my coffee. The smell of the leftover smoked pork ribs really had me wanting some even though I'm not hungry.
Old habits die hard. 5 -
Thanks for sharing this video that moves beyond just the calorie aspect of over eating. We must learn WHY so we can address the root issues we over eat.3
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Watch it. He's spot on.1
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It's interesting, the awareness that is created, (tapping onto @tcunbeliever's comment above). During weight loss and the couple years following I really never paid attention to eating frequency for myself or others. Enter 2016 and the year I trialed Keto and have continued to eat LCHF, I became overly aware of both my eating habits and the habits of others regarding frequency. I attribute this to my lack of hunger and attention to not eating when not hungry.
I've used golf excursions/vacations as an example before. Eat a big breakfast in prep for the long day. Pack snacks for the course "for energy". Bad shot. Eat a snack. Great shot. Celebrate with a snack. Grab something to eat at the turn. Cue of the "Halfway House" and general habit. Snack and drinks afterwards at the clubhouse. Cuz that's what we do. Routine. Return home and freshen up. Begin eating a smorgasboard of appetizers pre-dinner. Eat dinner. Stuffed. Sit around and play a few board games, cards, etc. Have some dessert. Go to bed. Start all over the next AM.
So unnecessary. All learned eating behaviors. Acceptable norm. It's food.2 -
My 8th grade history teacher back in '90 told the class. "The American past time is not baseball it's eating. Think about it, When you go to a sporting event what's the first question you ask "Where/What are we going to eat" When you go to the movies "Wanna eat before or after? What snacks are we going to have" If you go on a date dinner is usually included. When you get together with friends or family food is involved."
She was right. Our culture is more centered around food than it is anything else.6 -
I suppose I've been aware of my cues the past several years but it wasn't until making this my lifestyle that it started to make sense. And reading the discussion above feels like a revelation or awakening about my hunger vs. eating. Recently I have been packing less for my worktime meals and snacks. I thought I'd be hungry and feared buying extra. Actually the opposite is happening, I realize I still have a snack in my bag still when I get home.
I need to build on that on the weekends.
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tmoneyag99 wrote: »My 8th grade history teacher back in '90 told the class. "The American past time is not baseball it's eating. Think about it, When you go to a sporting event what's the first question you ask "Where/What are we going to eat" When you go to the movies "Wanna eat before or after? What snacks are we going to have" If you go on a date dinner is usually included. When you get together with friends or family food is involved."
She was right. Our culture is more centered around food than it is anything else.
This is my wife's 'thing'... she is the nurturer and food is always involved when people/family get together. She spent the weekend with friends (girl's w/e out) where all she had to do was show up and everything would be provided, but she just HAD to bake cookies and take a small brisket just because that's who she is.2 -
This is my wife's 'thing'... she is the nurturer and food is always involved when people/family get together. She spent the weekend with friends (girl's w/e out) where all she had to do was show up and everything would be provided, but she just HAD to bake cookies and take a small brisket just because that's who she is. @ccrdragon
This is a tough one to break. Many of us were socialized to believe that food = love. Therefore, cooking for family and friends is they way to show your loved ones how you feel about them. Adopting this WOE has helped me to break this cycle, not that I've totally conquered it.
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I read a book last year called "Salt, Sugar, Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us" by Michael Moss and another book about uncontrollable eating I just can't remember the name or Author of that one. One thing that stood out to me is how precarious food companies are in some sense and that they have designed food to hit a bliss point which encompasses different combinations of salt, sugar, and fat with thoughts on maximizing shelf life and other things. The food companies have tapped into an evolutionary trait where humans used to eat as much as they could when the food was available because the next meal was unknown or something like fruit is only available at certain times of the year. It's difficult to put down those designed foods and they can be addictive as well because they stimulate the reward centers in the brain. LCHF has helped me break that cycle although I have made mistakes now and then but this WOE has made me conscious of those mistakes, before I would mindlessly eat and then wonder why I was gaining weight...its sounds silly but it is what it is.5
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I read a book last year called "Salt, Sugar, Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us" by Michael Moss and another book about uncontrollable eating I just can't remember the name or Author of that one. One thing that stood out to me is how precarious food companies are in some sense and that they have designed food to hit a bliss point which encompasses different combinations of salt, sugar, and fat with thoughts on maximizing shelf life and other things. The food companies have tapped into an evolutionary trait where humans used to eat as much as they could when the food was available because the next meal was unknown or something like fruit is only available at certain times of the year. It's difficult to put down those designed foods and they can be addictive as well because they stimulate the reward centers in the brain. LCHF has helped me break that cycle although I have made mistakes now and then but this WOE has made me conscious of those mistakes, before I would mindlessly eat and then wonder why I was gaining weight...its sounds silly but it is what it is.
So here is the thing, while I don't know about all food companies, I did work for a company that developed food products for it's customers. They had food trials with their employees. It was kind of cool because you could effectively get free lunch every so often if you participated in the taste tests. They would have a battery of products that you had to fill out a questionnaire on how the food tasted to you.
I don't think by evil design they are trying to get us hooked. The fact of the matter is that they are competing with other companies to sell their products so they attempt to develop something that is desirable to most people and would elicit a purchase over their competitor. Lets face it, if you are a vegetarian you aren't in the target market for chicken tenders. (I also had to sit in market presentations. They provided food offerings based on the demographics of the people that shopped at each store) Part of this is on us. Creating habits and choices that don't support that behavior. The giant food companies can OFFER us their cookie, but we can choose to eat a homemade one or a piece of fruit. How often have you had your mother's home made deserts and they tasted so much better than what the food corporations provide.
They offer convenience and we are choosing to accept that convenience. Often times we choose the more convenient option when we are distracted with work deadlines, family obligations, or stressful events. Unfortunately, those things have become a common staple in our lives.
I think this conversation is much akin to the "Which came first, the chicken or the egg" analogy.1 -
@tmoneyag99, I agree that it's not really an evil plan as such... but it is "maximize profit for shareholders in the cheapest way possible for the company." Make people want your product more than the other company's, and more than they actually need.0
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Evil is an adult abusing s 4 year old for their own sick needs.
We as adults have to become responsible for we eat. Setting here at McDonald's I see some children being set up for future health issues but I don't see any evil intent. McDonald's is selling the customers what they order. They take my LCHF order without questioning it's validity as a WOE.
Food companies are like car companies. They produce what sells and stop producing what doesn't sell.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Evil is an adult abusing s 4 year old for their own sick needs.
We as adults have to become responsible for we eat. Setting here at McDonald's I see some children being set up for future health issues but I don't see any evil intent. McDonald's is selling the customers what they order. They take my LCHF order without questioning it's validity as a WOE.
Food companies are like car companies. They produce what sells and stop producing what doesn't sell.
Classic capitalism. The mighty dollar reigns supreme. So this isn't shocking holding that in mind. No conspiracy.
Whether or not it's good for people is another issue. So it's up to the consumer to put their dollars in the products in their best interest.
Easier said than done though, right?
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"Pure" capitalism doesn't subsidize polluters and manufacturers of other socially-costly products through a crazy quilt of friendly regulation and tax. Also, the long-term costs of what they produce, like cleanup, medical care, etc. (assuming everyone could agree what they are..) are not incorporated in the price of the products and set aside to deal with the fallout....1
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I have no personal battles with the "Big Food" industry (Kraft, Unilever, Kellogg, etc). I simply choose to not purchase their products unless they fit into my food plan. Shortens my time spent in the grocery store.
While I acknowledge their use of fat/salt/sugar to develop highly palatable food, I also acknowledge that the use of those ingredients is for purpose of increased market share resulting dividends to their shareholders. That is why companies are in business. @GaleHawkins ' last sentence of his post above is perfect sense and a truth.
My interest lies more in the ability to recognize and alter my response to the multitude of food cues that are ever present in my environment while 2) reflecting on the answer to why if I do not what to be fat, would I engage in the action of eating those foods that result my over eating behavior? It's not something I lose sleep over. My awareness aids in remedying the "problem". A TV commercial (of ooey-gooey cheese dripping pizza being enjoyed by a happy, laughing group of friends/family) during a football game, no longer prompts me to go to the kitchen to find something to eat. Most of the time.
I like "tasty food" as much as the next person and I cook daily. I can ignore the boiled eggs in my refrigerator. Unless I am hungry, they'll remain in the refrigerator. Given an urge to eat for the sheer joy of eating, I'll add fat (mayo), sugar (artificially sweetened relish) and salt. Suddenly they become deviled eggs or egg salad and I am more inclined to eat them...when not hungry. I doubt I am the only person who makes highly palatable low carb/keto food only to then...unfortunately eat it in excess.2 -
^^^^cheese^^^^
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baconslave wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Evil is an adult abusing s 4 year old for their own sick needs.
We as adults have to become responsible for we eat. Setting here at McDonald's I see some children being set up for future health issues but I don't see any evil intent. McDonald's is selling the customers what they order. They take my LCHF order without questioning it's validity as a WOE.
Food companies are like car companies. They produce what sells and stop producing what doesn't sell.
Classic capitalism. The mighty dollar reigns supreme. So this isn't shocking holding that in mind. No conspiracy.
Whether or not it's good for people is another issue. So it's up to the consumer to put their dollars in the products in their best interest.
Easier said than done though, right?
Would you rather have a system where the gov't tells you what you are allowed to eat and how much? Ever see images of the Native American, Cuban or Russian food lines? No thank you.
The key is education, education, education and information. I'm 100% okay with restaurants being required to provide calorie and ingredient information on their food. BUT the ultimate choice falls on the consumer. I imagine if everyone started ordering burgers with no buns, McDonalds would gladly toss the buns to reduce costs and increase margins.
Maybe we should all start requesting that they serve Broccoli or Green beans as a veggie option. Capitalism is a demand based system with consideration to available supply.2 -
In theory.....0
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Run amuck capitalism or a Soviet Style over controlling governments are NOT our only options for an economic food system.
I am an organic farmer and the reason I sell at the farmer's market is because the huge corprate food giants have taken over almost all the other markets. I can't sell to grocery stores because they want tons, delivery to far distances, at rock bottom prices, food that look better than they taste, and have contracts with corporate vendors. I can't sell to the schools that feed our children because the Ag. Department requires they buy from huge corprate farms they have contracts with. To compete for those contracts you have to meet criteria that are way beyond the abilities of small organic farmers. I can't sell to hospitals and other institution because those markets are tied up with contracts with huge corporate farms from out of state. I can't sell to most chain restaurants because they have abusive annimal requirements (Farmers are required to raise the poor farm animal in horrible conditions) and they have contracts with out of state corporate farmers.
So, yes I have problems with our giant corporate run crappy food system. Why can't you get an organic, humanly raised burger at McDonalds? Why can't our kids have healthy organic salads from local small farmers? There are over 400 local farmers at my farmer's market. Yet most of them can't sell their fresh, organic foods to most of the outlets people buy food from.
It's not about going to McDonalds and asking for organic broccoli. They wont carry it without huge pressure from politicians and citizens. Because it is more expensive for them to do that and it cuts their profits. They feed you pink slime hamburgers and abused chicken meat not because they have to but because they want to make more and more profit. Nothing else but profit matters in captalism. And profit should NOT be our only yard stick when it comes to feeding our bodies.
Ok rant off, sorry but people really don't know how our American food system runs and how dangerous Round Up laced, pesticide covered foods really are until they stop eating them and start feelig better.
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We as individuals vote with our wallets in a capitalist system. As long as we continue to buy pink slime from abused animals, they will continue to sell it to us. If we stopped buying their nasty food, they would absolutely stop producing it.
It's not as if the people eating there are unaware what they are eating, the information is quite publicly available.
I'm a huge farmers market shopper and I cook at home almost all the time, I pack my lunches, I don't really do breakfast, but I find that I'm way in the minority among my peers...I tell people at work that I don't eat out much and they inform me that they don't eat out much either, only like twice a week...except then they start talking and I realize that they mean twice a week for dinner and five or six days a week for lunch and two or three times a week for breakfast...my version of not eating out much is like once a week for lunch and once a month for dinner...They never even realize that they are eating ten meals a week that someone else is preparing and much of it is fast food with little nutritional value, it just doesn't even hit their radar. And ten meals a week, that's generally accepted by most people as not eating out much. Lots of people eat out even more often.3 -
What about the issue of not having many dollars to spend. And if you are paycheck-to-paycheck with multiple mouths to feed, are you going to follow your principles and let your kids go hungry because you can't afford organic? Food insecurity is a big problem.
Feed them with pink slime vs. hunger with organic but not enough food?
As things are now and in context with poverty and the way the economy is, organic vs. Big Farm is a "First-World Problems" argument.
50 Shades of Gray isn't just a book title. 1 -
LOL. Never thought the video focusing on (to me) the "whys" of overeating would result a discussion regarding capitalism, organic versus no, etc. What I took from the video was how I might be "wired" (ancestral) for certain tastes, so not totally within my control...I can be in control and need to learn to be aware of my responses and behaviors within my environment.
But carry on. The discussion is interesting too. @cedarsidefarm, 400 is a big Farmers Market. Are you at the NC State Farmers Market in Raleigh or elsewhere? My husband works with a vendor there and I frequent it often. I previously used the closer to me "satellite" market (I could walk to it) but since they've moved across town I go to Raleigh (sounds like an episode of Andy Griffith
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My locals farmer's markets are cheaper than my local grocery stores...so I don't get the money angle as a valid argument for not eating pink slime unless there are really areas where buying food from farmers is more expensive than buying it from a chain store. I suspect that is not really the case anywhere. It's just more convenient to eat pink slime than to get up early on a Saturday and shop directly with farms and plan a menu based on what is in season and available and cook all week.0
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tcunbeliever wrote: »My locals farmer's markets are cheaper than my local grocery stores...so I don't get the money angle as a valid argument for not eating pink slime unless there are really areas where buying food from farmers is more expensive than buying it from a chain store. I suspect that is not really the case anywhere. It's just more convenient to eat pink slime than to get up early on a Saturday and shop directly with farms and plan a menu based on what is in season and available and cook all week.
I agree with you on cost...WHEN a farmer's market is available. Sadly, food deserts are a real phenomenon.
I live on the outskirts of a rural town. We are 45 minutes from the nearest chain grocery store with fresh produce. Our single local market is small and, by necessity, expensive. Parts of our town are LCOL for California, so a lot of those residents are low income. For those that are not able to make the drive into one of the larger cities, their choices are Dollar General (limited, low quality canned, boxed and frozen foods) or whatever local fast food place will take their SNAP card.3 -
I'm in VA, our farmers markets do take the SNAP card, though I think that only started within the last year or two.1
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tcunbeliever wrote: »I'm in VA, our farmers markets do take the SNAP card, though I think that only started within the last year or two.
Our nearest Farmer's Market is 45 minutes away. The travel limitation still applies for us and for other rural/urban areas. I have no idea if the Farmer's Markets take SNAP cards. It would be awesome if they did...I love that your area does.1 -
I understand the limitations of being able to buy locally produced organic foods. That's what I'm complaining about. Why should you have to be rich to get the healthy good foods? Why do you have to be rich to get a vote in our food system? Dollars are NOT equally distributed based on hard work or merit. Many people are born into wealth like royalty, do they get more of a vote? I know farmers who work their butts off to raise amazing delicious and healthy foods but make little money off their produce. Yet dollars are the only thing that counts when we want to change our access to healthy food. It should NOT be that money is equal to votes or access to healthy food. By the way, I take SNAP and actually give people who buy with SNAP a small discount (especially after congress cut back on how much SNAP they give to hungry Americans).
We in the US subsidize grain producers. I have applied for grants from the US but almost ALL grants go to corporate farmers. It started with Nixon. That's why you have carbs and high fructose corn syrup in just about every processed food. It is cheap because our tax dollars go to supporting growing all those GMO, Pesticide and Round Up covered grains.
Why should you be importing tomatoes from Mexico, when I live right here and could raise better tomatoes for you? Why not take some of those give aways to grain farmers and give them to vegetable farmers or local organic farmers? Then you could get low carb healthy foods for a whole lot less. I could pack up a truck and go sell my produce in food deserts areas or poor neighborhoods. I can't do that now because I can't make ends meet by selling cheaper so poorer people can afford it. But if I had a grant or was subsidized like our US grain producers and large corporate farms are, I could make healthy food available to everyone.3 -
tcunbeliever wrote: »My locals farmer's markets are cheaper than my local grocery stores...so I don't get the money angle as a valid argument for not eating pink slime unless there are really areas where buying food from farmers is more expensive than buying it from a chain store. I suspect that is not really the case anywhere. It's just more convenient to eat pink slime than to get up early on a Saturday and shop directly with farms and plan a menu based on what is in season and available and cook all week.
I agree with you on cost...WHEN a farmer's market is available. Sadly, food deserts are a real phenomenon.
I live on the outskirts of a rural town. We are 45 minutes from the nearest chain grocery store with fresh produce. Our single local market is small and, by necessity, expensive. Parts of our town are LCOL for California, so a lot of those residents are low income. For those that are not able to make the drive into one of the larger cities, their choices are Dollar General (limited, low quality canned, boxed and frozen foods) or whatever local fast food place will take their SNAP card.
It is ridiculous how little is available in rural areas in some places. I live in the TN Appy's. Our farmer's market is tiny and in town, usually with only produce. It's not any cheaper than the store in some cases. The time and location are both very inconvenient for us personally. "In town" is as long a drive for some as the grocery store. We do have 3 little produce markets in the area, but I know at least 2 of them aren't set up to take SNAP cards either. And we have no public transportation. Some people have a hard time affording transportation when their car dies on them. Nearest grocery is 20 min from us, but we are closer than many many folks who have to drive 35-45 min for anything better than a gas station or a Dollar General. We get organic meat and eggs only thanks to the in-laws who have chickens. Just eggs as they don't butcher birds. And they have a cow butchered every couple years. The cost to feed one and then butcher is no cheaper than store-bought and sometimes it is more. Between all of us, there are many mouths to feed and even the garden only goes so far for so long.
We get lots of people from NC who drive into here to get to a Walmart. I'm pretty sure that's an hour drive for them. They have a bit of a drive to groceries as well. IIRC. I haven't been to the NC side in awhile.
In winter, there is no produce market. We rarely can get enough to grow to have enough left over to can at our place. We grow rocks really well here. Other things don't do near as well, as they say here. My FIL usually can get enough green beans to grow to can some. And he cans some salsa and kraut. But he's retired now, so he has the time to do all that. And he isn't on the mtn in a valley, so he gets more sunlight and more warmth. I plan to have a bigger garden. It didn't do well last year. The feral cat hoard (fed by an elderly guy across the street) comes over and wrecks our garden. Ruined our zucchini/squash bed.
If I worked, maybe we'd have enough to frequent little produce markets and buy organic. But I doubt it because this is Appalachia, and we get paid half here for the same job you'd find elsewhere. DH gets paid about $20k to $30k less here than he would elsewhere. Except he's devoted to the house he built and his family here so he puts up with it. And I'm a Librarian. Not a profession that pays the big bucks. And not a lot of positions here either. Also I have 4 ravenous kids, and I also feed my elderly father for part of the day. I do my best to cook as least processed as I can for supper for everyone. We pay a LOT for groceries as is. Even organic canned goods can be as much as $.50 to a full dollar (or more) than regular. I eat a whole regular can of greens by myself. For one meal.
Don't get me started on how little we have left after we pay premiums for health insurance with a $7000 deductible.
In Appalachia, there is a lot of poverty. It is a regular thing here in the summer now for churches and organizations to provide breakfasts and lunches for school age children, because they aren't getting fed when they aren't in school. We have food banks that get a workout constantly. There's a Meals on Wheels that takes food to communities in other Appy areas. None of that is organic. That's just subsistence. Right before school lets back in, churches hold Fairs where they give out school supplies, backpacks, hair cuts, and school clothes. In winter people donate coats. My best RL friend had her school give one of her daughters a new pair of shoes when they noticed that hers were worn out. They are lucky. Her husband has work. And she gets paid part-time to be a full time teachers' assistant in a middle school special ed class (even though she's had a teaching degree for 3 years, there's no full time jobs. Or should I say, not enough jobs for those who need work.)
TL;DR:
So all those words to say, that I believe that if you are able (as in it is cost effective or even available) to buy organic and/or from small farms you absolutely should. If not, do the best you can as you can. 2
This discussion has been closed.