Keto, insulin and inflammation question
rfrenkel77
Posts: 103 Member
Hi folks, so I have been keto for a year since the talking heads convinced me that high insulin is the cause of arterial inflammation which is causing calcification. Today I come across an insulin index chart “https://i0.wp.com/optimisingnutrition.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/food-insulin-index-for-all-foods-tested.png”
Which tells me that beefsteak is same ballpark as apple and oatmeal. So why have I eliminated Apple and oatmeal from my diet if these items don’t drive insulin thru the roof? Can someone splain the logic to me. Can someone with a keton meter eat an apple vs steak and tell me that their ketones dropped. Thanks.
Which tells me that beefsteak is same ballpark as apple and oatmeal. So why have I eliminated Apple and oatmeal from my diet if these items don’t drive insulin thru the roof? Can someone splain the logic to me. Can someone with a keton meter eat an apple vs steak and tell me that their ketones dropped. Thanks.
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Replies
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Interesting. That Snickers Bar is right there around the beef steak. Maybe "beef steak" is reference to the brand that comes in a box named "Beef Steak" versus a ribeye? I've never jumped on the "insulin thing". I just stay away from added sugar as in pastries and candy. I had an apple yesterday and stayed under my 50 total carbs for the day. I don't monitor BG.2
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My inflammation body wide dropped like a rock when I started keeping my carbs <50 grams daily is all that I know. My struggles with weight regains for 40 years have be gone for 3 years now on LCHF because I stopped even having a desire to binge on high carb/high fat foods.
It seems like insulin concerns are of NO concern as long as I am keto/lchf macros wise.1 -
The action of insulin on protein is entirely different than the action of insulin on glucose.
Glycation, is the problem with arterial damage and the action of insulin storing excess glucose as triglyceride.
Insulin being put to use on amino acids is productive. Not storage.8 -
Being insulin resistant, I’ve been on keto and 20:4 IF, which seems to be the only combatant angainst my resistance. All foods cause a rise in insulin, including protein. The only thing that doesn’t is fat, which is why I eat as much fat as possible.4
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The action of insulin on protein is entirely different than the action of insulin on glucose.
Glycation, is the problem with arterial damage and the action of insulin storing excess glucose as triglyceride.
Insulin being put to use on amino acids is productive. Not storage.
You saying insulin rise from the steak protein is less inflammatory then identical insulin rise from oatmeal because of carb presence? Interesting. I’ll look into this. Post links please if you already have them bookmarked.
I found that the index chart was generated off https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/11945
Check 2nd pdf, it has all the tested foods, and “beef streak” is not a brand name, but a real grilled Australian steak.
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GrokRockStar wrote: »Being insulin resistant, I’ve been on keto and 20:4 IF, which seems to be the only combatant angainst my resistance. All foods cause a rise in insulin, including protein. The only thing that doesn’t is fat, which is why I eat as much fat as possible.
I’m not insulin resistant, but have Artery calcification, which is counter diagnosis to dr Krafts proclamation that all heart disease is IR undiagnosed. I’m very lean. My friend who is fat, recently diabetic and smoked 10 years longer then me has a calcium score 0. So it’s a real murder mystery as what’s driving what. Meanwhile I’m IF 23:1 sometimes 20:4 like you, my purpose to to keep insulin minimum while I research. I don’t want to drop dead at 55 on a treadmill.
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I'm diabetic and have been doing a lot of research on how to fix myself. It is my understanding that the damage to arteries and many other diabetic complications are caused by high blood sugar, not necessarily the high insulin. Maybe they just tell us this because it is easy to track blood glucose levels with fingertip blood, but the ability to track insulin levels in the blood is not readily available to test frequently at home.
I've been watching Dr. Bernsteins videos about diabetes (look for the episodes about insulin), and he does say that carbs cause a huge fast rise in blood sugar, but protein causes a slower rise. The problem is the body's basal (constant) insulin level isn't strong enough to prevent that sharp rise in blood glucose from refined carbs and the damage that causes, but in a normal person, the basal insulin prevents too high of a spike, and that peak blood sugar will cause a large amount of insulin to be released to bring down the glucose levels. An insulin resistant person, may still have a large rise in insulin but it isn't enough to bring down glucose levels because the cells aren't processing the signal, so more damage occurs. In a type 1 diabetic, they inject insulin prior to eating to cover the protein and carbs consumed (he also recommends very low carb diet for diabetics). since the rise is so much slower with protein, a normal person (or the basal insulin injection for a diabetic) provides enough insulin to cover the protein in meat without a sharp rise in blood sugar. He does say that different sources of protein can affect blood sugar differently and recommends his new patients spend a couple weeks of consistently eating the same quantity of the same thing every day to work out exactly how much fast acting insulin they need for a serving of that food.
I've tested my personal glucose levels after eating carbs, and in the beginning, would often see readings over 180 mg/dl after a dinner with 60-70g carbs. now, more cautious, lower carb eating, moderate to high protein and moderate fat. I'm typically 140s after meals now. I'll let you know after our next steak night if that creates a rise in my glucose levels.
Dr. Jason Fung talks a lot about insulin. He recommends a combination of keto diet and IF or extended fast (3-5 days with medical supervision) to lower insulin.3 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »GrokRockStar wrote: »Being insulin resistant, I’ve been on keto and 20:4 IF, which seems to be the only combatant angainst my resistance. All foods cause a rise in insulin, including protein. The only thing that doesn’t is fat, which is why I eat as much fat as possible.
I’m not insulin resistant, but have Artery calcification, which is counter diagnosis to dr Krafts proclamation that all heart disease is IR undiagnosed. I’m very lean. My friend who is fat, recently diabetic and smoked 10 years longer then me has a calcium score 0. So it’s a real murder mystery as what’s driving what. Meanwhile I’m IF 23:1 sometimes 20:4 like you, my purpose to to keep insulin minimum while I research. I don’t want to drop dead at 55 on a treadmill.
Have you read up on how some claim they are using vitamin D3 and K2 along with magnesium to lower heart calcium scores? While my score last May was only 9.8 I am hoping to lower it a bit more on the next test results. All things being equal the score typically increases by 15-30% annually. Last year (my first CAC scoring) at the age of 66 I came in as one age 56. I was obese (in the 250 pound range for years) but never smoked, drinked or did drugs.
I am too interested in what makes CAC scoring numbers increase/decrease. Perhaps the reasons are not the same for everyone. I was Keto or LCHF for 2.7 years before my first and only scoring was done last May.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The action of insulin on protein is entirely different than the action of insulin on glucose.
Glycation, is the problem with arterial damage and the action of insulin storing excess glucose as triglyceride.
Insulin being put to use on amino acids is productive. Not storage.
So I have taken a look at the chart. Are there implications for me? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to chicken -vs- beef?0 -
@GaleHawkins
Taking d3 and k2 and omega3. Stopping all nuts today because of high omega6. Highly doubt that calcium can be reversed just hoping to assist my body from depositing more. I’m 40, GAC score 20. There is definitely a genetic component to this also. Just don’t know what my body is reacting to.1 -
You guys might want to read the posts on Marty Kendall's site Optimising Nutrition. He talks a lot about protein, gluconeogenesis, protein's effect on blood sugar and insulin.
https://optimisingnutrition.com/category/protein-and-blood-sugar/
This is just one post. You can view his other posts and his references once there if you want to dive more deeply.4 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »@GaleHawkins
Taking d3 and k2 and omega3. Stopping all nuts today because of high omega6. Highly doubt that calcium can be reversed just hoping to assist my body from depositing more. I’m 40, GAC score 20. There is definitely a genetic component to this also. Just don’t know what my body is reacting to.
I just lost my long reply about my limited calcium deposit reversal experience and will retype it when I get time. I am positive that reversal is doable but I do not know if it is meaningful.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The action of insulin on protein is entirely different than the action of insulin on glucose.
Glycation, is the problem with arterial damage and the action of insulin storing excess glucose as triglyceride.
Insulin being put to use on amino acids is productive. Not storage.
So I have taken a look at the chart. Are there implications for me? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to chicken -vs- beef?
I don’t know for sure. I have read about the differences in amino acid profiles of chicken and beef and different animal protein will illicit a different response. I think there’s a reason the carnivore community eats primarily ruminant animals. It’s probably more related to total nutrition and appetite satisfaction than it is insulin related though.
If I recall correctly, didn’t you make a dramatic increase in your protein consumption a while back and end up seeing more improvement in your fasting blood sugar and throughout the day as well?0 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The action of insulin on protein is entirely different than the action of insulin on glucose.
Glycation, is the problem with arterial damage and the action of insulin storing excess glucose as triglyceride.
Insulin being put to use on amino acids is productive. Not storage.
You saying insulin rise from the steak protein is less inflammatory then identical insulin rise from oatmeal because of carb presence? Interesting. I’ll look into this. Post links please if you already have them bookmarked.
I found that the index chart was generated off https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/11945
Check 2nd pdf, it has all the tested foods, and “beef streak” is not a brand name, but a real grilled Australian steak.
This covers so much information, I don’t know of what you’re looking for is in here or not but insulin does more than store fat and glucose. Insulin in and of itself isn’t the problem. It’s what it’s busy doing that creates issues.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=10 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
So I have taken a look at the chart. Are there implications for me? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to chicken -vs- beef?
I don’t know for sure. I have read about the differences in amino acid profiles of chicken and beef and different animal protein will illicit a different response. I think there’s a reason the carnivore community eats primarily ruminant animals. It’s probably more related to total nutrition and appetite satisfaction than it is insulin related though.
If I recall correctly, didn’t you make a dramatic increase in your protein consumption a while back and end up seeing more improvement in your fasting blood sugar and throughout the day as well?
I made some intentional increases in protein more in line with the recommended from the keto gains site. I got slightly improved results with the meter in terms of BG after the change, but it is hard to know if that was just the trend anyway or related to the protein. I can say with some confidence that I discovered that (for me), a meal high in protein to meet my goal (say 60 g or so), did not have any negative impact on the readings 1 and 2 hours after eating.
My A1C on 1000 mg of Metformin once a day was 5.3 after probably 3 months of eating the higher protein. My doctor took me off the Metformin. The numbers have crept up and seem to be stable now after 2 months off the Metformin. Now my fasting is about 120-125, and an hour after eating, I will have 130-135. At 2 hours, I will be back to 120(ish). I have stuck with the higher protein since going off the Metformin, and I have been very good about keeping carbs under 20 (net) per day.
I get another A1C in early April, but I don't like the higher numbers. I am wondering if there is another piece of the puzzle for me in all this. If my average glucose reading is 130, that gives me a predicted A1C of 6.1-6.2, and that is a little discouraging for me.
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Also Google Dr. Shawn Baker.1
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
So I have taken a look at the chart. Are there implications for me? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to chicken -vs- beef?
I don’t know for sure. I have read about the differences in amino acid profiles of chicken and beef and different animal protein will illicit a different response. I think there’s a reason the carnivore community eats primarily ruminant animals. It’s probably more related to total nutrition and appetite satisfaction than it is insulin related though.
If I recall correctly, didn’t you make a dramatic increase in your protein consumption a while back and end up seeing more improvement in your fasting blood sugar and throughout the day as well?
I made some intentional increases in protein more in line with the recommended from the keto gains site. I got slightly improved results with the meter in terms of BG after the change, but it is hard to know if that was just the trend anyway or related to the protein. I can say with some confidence that I discovered that (for me), a meal high in protein to meet my goal (say 60 g or so), did not have any negative impact on the readings 1 and 2 hours after eating.
My A1C on 1000 mg of Metformin once a day was 5.3 after probably 3 months of eating the higher protein. My doctor took me off the Metformin. The numbers have crept up and seem to be stable now after 2 months off the Metformin. Now my fasting is about 120-125, and an hour after eating, I will have 130-135. At 2 hours, I will be back to 120(ish). I have stuck with the higher protein since going off the Metformin, and I have been very good about keeping carbs under 20 (net) per day.
I get another A1C in early April, but I don't like the higher numbers. I am wondering if there is another piece of the puzzle for me in all this. If my average glucose reading is 130, that gives me a predicted A1C of 6.1-6.2, and that is a little discouraging for me.
I know Dr Bernstein encourages people to stay on metformin if it gives them more consistently normal blood sugars.
It’s more important to achieve the low A1c than to be off meds. If it were me, and I tolerated the metformin, I think I would ask to go back in it.
It’s not going backward. The lower A1c is a step forward. Doesn’t matter how you get there in my opinion.2 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
So I have taken a look at the chart. Are there implications for me? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to chicken -vs- beef?
I don’t know for sure. I have read about the differences in amino acid profiles of chicken and beef and different animal protein will illicit a different response. I think there’s a reason the carnivore community eats primarily ruminant animals. It’s probably more related to total nutrition and appetite satisfaction than it is insulin related though.
If I recall correctly, didn’t you make a dramatic increase in your protein consumption a while back and end up seeing more improvement in your fasting blood sugar and throughout the day as well?
I made some intentional increases in protein more in line with the recommended from the keto gains site. I got slightly improved results with the meter in terms of BG after the change, but it is hard to know if that was just the trend anyway or related to the protein. I can say with some confidence that I discovered that (for me), a meal high in protein to meet my goal (say 60 g or so), did not have any negative impact on the readings 1 and 2 hours after eating.
My A1C on 1000 mg of Metformin once a day was 5.3 after probably 3 months of eating the higher protein. My doctor took me off the Metformin. The numbers have crept up and seem to be stable now after 2 months off the Metformin. Now my fasting is about 120-125, and an hour after eating, I will have 130-135. At 2 hours, I will be back to 120(ish). I have stuck with the higher protein since going off the Metformin, and I have been very good about keeping carbs under 20 (net) per day.
I get another A1C in early April, but I don't like the higher numbers. I am wondering if there is another piece of the puzzle for me in all this. If my average glucose reading is 130, that gives me a predicted A1C of 6.1-6.2, and that is a little discouraging for me.
It's worth noting that for some people, especially those with insulin resistance, have slightly higher fasting blood sugar readings on very low carb, but actually have a normal (or nearly normal) A1C. The exact mechanisms and reasons are a little fuzzy, but it's basically that the cyclical glycogen release is still dealing with the insulin resistance input. Your A1C might actually be a bit lower than you're predicting, because staying low carb eliminates the spikes and allows the blood sugar to go lower more often, bringing down the actual average.
I had the same issue a couple of years ago and despite me getting FBG readings in the pre-diabetic range, my A1C was actually on the normal side. That said, I was able to bring even my glucose readings down to normal levels with full carnivory and intermittent fasting (I have issues with insulin resistance and danced around the line of pre-diabetes, but have never officially been diabetic), even when Metformin didn't work for me, so it is possible.3 -
This article on optimisingnutrition.com seems like it might have something to add to this discussion.... https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/ Lots of 'real science' references at the end of the article.3
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The answer to original question is both steak and apple will spike equal insulin and stop ketosis ie fat furn. I learned some pathology especially from the last link. that was a very readable article, canadjineh.
Still amazing that there is notable difference between animal protein from chicken bacon and fish and beef.0 -
I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
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I don’t own a ketone meter, I just hear folks on podcasts talking about keeping protein lower, to avoid higher insulin response, which raises insulin and drops ketones. If yours are not dropping you probably less sensitive or not eating nuff steak:)Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
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The thing they don't mention is the duration/speed of the insulin spikes. The difference btw a glucose spike vs a protein spike is speed. Glucose spikes faster. Protein processing takes more time and the insulin released is over a longer period of time from what I understand.
Dropping ketone output doesn't necessarily mean you drop out of ketosis. It's just a lower level of ketones, which will change again once the protein/insulin round is over. Unless you require a very high ketone level for a neurological therapy, "in ketosis" is "in ketosis." High or low doesn't matter. From my studies, protein is only converted to 2g glucose per 60g protein. For chicken, that's like close to 12oz of meat or something. And since the body needs to have a healthy amount of glucose (synthesized or eaten) to function day-to-day, I think we're safe with eating a little more protein.4 -
If you haven't listened to this yet or read my synopsis in the thread... It's 2 researchers talking about diabetes and the protein. Very interesting.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10638849/ir-diabetes-ketosis-protein-and-gng-topics-low-carb-podcast#latest1 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »
I don’t own a ketone meter, I just hear folks on podcasts talking about keeping protein lower, to avoid higher insulin response, which raises insulin and drops ketones. If yours are not dropping you probably less sensitive or not eating nuff steak:)Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
I use ketosis mainly to manage my BG. I tend to have a higher morning BG reading so if I eat I will eat protein. It helps bring my BG down, possibly due to resulting the rising insulin.
I don't need high ketones for any health reason, low ketones is fine, so protein works well for me.0 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »
I don’t own a ketone meter, I just hear folks on podcasts talking about keeping protein lower, to avoid higher insulin response, which raises insulin and drops ketones. If yours are not dropping you probably less sensitive or not eating nuff steak:)Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
Podcasts are just one way medical myths turn into medical 'facts'.
We do not even know 1% about what we are talking about most all of the time. Just over the past 3-4 years I have had to toss out a lot of medical "facts" because they have since been proven less that 100% factual.
No we do not need to through up our hands just because the full truths can not be known. When I am the 1 of n=1 those are the only 'facts' that I am willing to act on or stop acting on.
At the age of 67 I am coming to realize there are few or less absolute facts at apply everywhere and to everyone. 4 -
The sites mention the gluconeogenesis is a demand driven process. Ok. So in a keto adapted individual glucose demand is not high, but still the body is not going to dump excess protein but convert it into energy/glucose, just because it has it. That is now available to burn instead of your own fat storage. Seems like limiting down protein still still a good idea to get more fat burn. Just brainstorming. What you all think? The only way to force body to tap into fat storage is the force a drastic calorie drop from all sources. Fasting that is.1
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My recent personal experience would support the suggestion you just made. I'm trying some different macro's to establish whether the amount of protein I'm eating is slowing my fat burn down (probably just a little)
Just quickly, that chart in the OP seems to contain some irregularities, like multiple entries for choc chip cookies for example. Made me wonder how reliable the data is, or if perhaps some of the terms used were a little vague.0 -
Why do my blood sugars rise after a high protein meal:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
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Freischuetz wrote: »Why do my blood sugars rise after a high protein meal:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
Really good summary!1
This discussion has been closed.