Ideas for low carb and low protein foods
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
First off regarding your 120g-130g glucose statement: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-carb-ketogenic-diet-brain#section2
This article conflates "dietary carbohydrate" with what your brain needs. As explained before, the only thing that reduces glucose needs for your brain is ketone bio-availability. As your article alludes (but is very poor at explaining clearly), you do not need to eat 130g of carbs daily. Where the article fails is that your brain still uses glucose even when you eat 0g of carbohydrates because your body can make it.
My entire point is that your bodies are clearly making some glucose via gluconeogenesis. Do you dispute this?2 -
FTR, I'm one of those that eats 0g of carbs. This month, I ran 2 marathons and 1 ultra-marathon and don't consider myself to be unhealthy... nor am I arguing that you are unhealthy. I'm also not saying that you need to eat 120g-130g of carbs daily.
I'm saying that your brain requires either glucose or ketones. If you don't eat enough carbs and you don't have enough ketones bio-available, your body will need to make glucose. Primarily, glucose is made from protein. This can be dietary protein or it can be body protein (i.e. muscles and other lean tissue). Most of us would prefer to keep our lean tissue and that is why it is a bad idea to skimp on dietary protein. I hope this more clearly states my point.
ETA: And my original point is that you are likely in ketosis if you eat 20g of net carbs daily. Is it possible to make all 100g-110g glucose deficit up with gluconeogenesis and not make ketones? Sure... but unlikely. Our bodies will try to use both methods to make up the deficit.2 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »"0.5 mmol/l blood ketone levels would only replace about 6g of glucose (of 120g-130g needed). If she is eating as little glucose as you say, then most of her glucose deficit is made up by making her own glucose and extremely little from ketones. This is the part that confounds me, as it seems to be atypical based on my own experience and based on all studies I've read to date.
First off regarding your 120g-130g glucose statement: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-carb-ketogenic-diet-brain#section2
Hers, mine, everyone in our groups GKI (Glucose Ketone Index) are perfectly normal for body function/fat loss metabolism function. Everyone ranging from 2 to 6..
More info on how to calculate that here: https://perfectketo.com/track-your-glucose-ketone-index/
When we think we understand it all I can suggest from my own findings that none of us do... See what happens with your own metabolism, talk to doctors, dieticians, ketogenic specialists, research etc..
Your ketogenic metabolism vs glucose etc. Some explanation here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74l-ecOi_8
I've been under 12 gr net myself daily for a couple months now steady while upping my protein levels substantially. I'm usually around the 15 g net level with a couple days going higher but I've dropped it a lot last couple months to see my body's response to adjusting macros again. And I work out a lot. My own ketones range from around .7 to 3 daily.... Sure doesn't seem like my brain is dying and my health is deteriorating.. the complete opposite actually.
He never suggested a person needs to EAT 120g of carbs a day. You have totally misunderstood the point.
You’re relatively new here I noticed. Many of the people you suggest to do some research have been in this group and living this life for 5+ years.1 -
"This article conflates "dietary carbohydrate" with what your brain needs. As explained before, the only thing that reduces glucose needs for your brain is ketone bio-availability. As your article alludes (but is very poor at explaining clearly), you do not need to eat 130g of carbs daily. Where the article fails is that your brain still uses glucose even when you eat 0g of carbohydrates because your body can make it.
My entire point is that your bodies are clearly making some glucose via gluconeogenesis. Do you dispute this?"
Did you read the whole link? The article specifically talks about gluconeogenisis.
Do I dispute gluconeogenisis??? Why in the world would you ask me that? I have spent a lot of my own time talking about it, mentoring others about it, and living it. Maybe spend some time reading back around the forum, reading my weight loss story thread etc also may clear some things up for you about other similar things.
Can't quite determine if you are confused, don't quite grasp what's been explained or have mis read certain things in my posts or things I've linked etc..Maybe you can clear this up more.
You are the one that has claimed that my wife doesn't produce ketones or glucose lol. Here's your exact words in your previous post: "We are talking about someone who supposedly has neither glucose nor ketones available, and I find that very hard to believe. She would need one or the other. " Completely false. Where did you get that idea from? Read all my posts. She is in ketosis full time and obviously is producing glucose as well. I went further to show her ketone levels, her GKI levels and blood glucose levels.
"I'm saying that your brain requires either glucose or ketones. If you don't eat enough carbs and you don't have enough ketones bio-available, your body will need to make glucose. Primarily, glucose is made from protein. This can be dietary protein or it can be body protein (i.e. muscles and other lean tissue). Most of us would prefer to keep our lean tissue and that is why it is a bad idea to skimp on dietary protein. I hope this more clearly states my point."
No kidding really? (That's sarcasm sorry lol) I'm the one that posted the video explaining that because you seemed to be confused about understanding that point specifically. Everyone I know in our group is successfully losing fat and increasing our health markers by being in ketosis full time and while accessing needed glucose by gluconeogenisis. That's just science that can't be avoided if you eat the right ratios of macros and your metabolism functions properly. Doing it all on an athletic level things need to be manipulated for that function but it's all relative. Some with insulin resistant, diabetic people etc..
"ETA: And my original point is that you are likely in ketosis if you eat 20g of net carbs daily. Is it possible to make all 100g-110g glucose deficit up with gluconeogenesis and not make ketones? Sure... but unlikely. Our bodies will try to use both methods to make up the deficit. "
No kidding. Who said otherwise? Sure as heck wasn't me. Where are you thinking I think otherwise??? (but your body's demand for that amount of glucose is very disputed by professionals regarding not just the number, but by the bodies ability to get that from different methods) watch the video, and tons of other ones out there. Lot's of new studies going on daily regarding this as it's very interesting science. But there is no dispute regarding that gluconeogenisis is needed and happens obviously.
Also your words "likely in ketosis if you eat 20 g of net carbs daily" is a dangerous statement to make in my opinion on an open forum for people who "think they are in ketosis" just by eating under certain numbers of carbs a day in my opinion. As I know for fact that some people have to be under those numbers to get into and STAY in full time ketosis. If you haven't seen that first hand and been part of that then I could see most people thinking otherwise from a lot of misinformation regarding this all over the internet.
This doctor explains some of those things very well if you have the time to watch the whole thing I highly recommend it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=3zX3tfuKIlo
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He never suggested a person needs to EAT 120g of carbs a day. You have totally misunderstood the point.
You’re relatively new here I noticed. Many of the people you suggest to do some research have been in this group and living this life for 5+ years.
?? What makes you think I thought it was eating/and not just the carbs needed for brain/body function?? And regarding advice that people do their own research... Well sorry but it's a fact that there are a lot of people (not just on this forum) that have been on diets, or WOE for years and don't lose fat or get healthier or both. I have done both and I provide proof of that to anybody and everybody. Do you think otherwise because I'm relatively new here lol? If so, that's unfortunate for you, not me.
Everyone should not only seek their own information, research etc but they should learn from experience from their own bodies/metabolisms while being under supervision of professionals.1 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »No kidding. Who said otherwise? Sure as heck wasn't me. Where are you thinking I think otherwise???PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Giving advice like "IMO as long as you are limiting your carbs, you will get in to Ketosis." Is really counterproductive to people who want and need to know that they are in ketosis. A guessing game is no certain way to ensure you are doing what you set out to do. And sorry but it just isn't true that eating "limiting your carbs will get you into ketosis" Every metabolism is different and things written online about it like eat under 50 grams or 20 grams a day is just a very very basic guideline. No one will truly know they are in ketosis without testing for it. Why do it if you don't know you are truly converting your metabolism to burn off it's fat stores??PaulChasinDreams wrote: »(but your body's demand for that amount of glucose is very disputed by professionals regarding not just the number, but by the bodies ability to get that from different methods)
Which is it?
Are you saying we don't need a certain level of glucose?
Or are you saying that we have the ability to get it from different sources? (Something I pointed out and we seem to agree upon.)PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Also your words "likely in ketosis if you eat 20 g of net carbs daily" is a dangerous statement to make in my opinion on an open forum for people who "think they are in ketosis" just by eating under certain numbers of carbs a day in my opinion. As I know for fact that some people have to be under those numbers to get into and STAY in full time ketosis.
You can have whatever opinion you want to have. When you go on to state that it is fact that what I'm saying is correct, I have a hard time understanding why you opine that stating an acknowledged fact "is a dangerous statement" - not that I really care about your opinion, as I'm interested in facts. If you were an expert, I might be interested in your opinion formed on the basis of a conglomeration of facts from research and experience. Even then, I would question any value of continuing to listen if you stated an opinion and immediately followed that opinion with acknowledgement of a contradictory fact.
Since you:
a. Are clearly less knowledgable than me about this subject.
b. Are obviously not an expert.
c. Contradict your own opinions with facts.
I question what value exists in continuing this discussion. In so doing, I've concluded that you are not worth any more of my time.
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I honestly can’t make any sense out of any of it.1
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Lol you didn't answer or reply to a single point I showed how YOU not only continued to contradict yourself, but you also are chasing your own tail around trying to make it look like you made points that I made. I'm sure people can read back and see that lol. Not only that but in order for you to avoid answering direct questions where I called you out on your misinformation you just reply with questions instead of answers. Very typical of "know it all's" who get corrected and called out on this forum though which is a very sad thing actually.
And actually again, quite contrary. No you are not more knowledgeable, (like a teenager thing to say too lol) are not an expert, contradict your own stuff over and over again even after I point it out and ask you to explain yourself, but of course how could you explain it when you are now seeing how you messed up in the first place.
But yes I do agree with your very last sentence.... this discussion with you has zero value because you are very confused lol.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »"0.5 mmol/l blood ketone levels would only replace about 6g of glucose (of 120g-130g needed). If she is eating as little glucose as you say, then most of her glucose deficit is made up by making her own glucose and extremely little from ketones. This is the part that confounds me, as it seems to be atypical based on my own experience and based on all studies I've read to date.
First off regarding your 120g-130g glucose statement: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-carb-ketogenic-diet-brain#section2
Hers, mine, everyone in our groups GKI (Glucose Ketone Index) are perfectly normal for body function/fat loss metabolism function. Everyone ranging from 2 to 6..
More info on how to calculate that here: https://perfectketo.com/track-your-glucose-ketone-index/
When we think we understand it all I can suggest from my own findings that none of us do... See what happens with your own metabolism, talk to doctors, dieticians, ketogenic specialists, research etc..
Your ketogenic metabolism vs glucose etc. Some explanation here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74l-ecOi_8
I've been under 12 gr net myself daily for a couple months now steady while upping my protein levels substantially. I'm usually around the 15 g net level with a couple days going higher but I've dropped it a lot last couple months to see my body's response to adjusting macros again. And I work out a lot. My own ketones range from around .7 to 3 daily.... Sure doesn't seem like my brain is dying and my health is deteriorating.. the complete opposite actually.
He never suggested a person needs to EAT 120g of carbs a day. You have totally misunderstood the point.
You’re relatively new here I noticed. Many of the people you suggest to do some research have been in this group and living this life for 5+ years.
How timely:
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Are you familiar with the work of Ben Bikman?
He would really help you understand how it’s the process of GNG to provide the necessary 130g glucose each day that prompts ketogenesis.
Anyone eating so little carbohydrate as to not supply all of that need, and whom also has minimal glycogen storage, will be in Ketosis. Testing methods and human error or simple lying is a much greater likelihood than some genetic defect that ultimately lead to death if a person could not make their own glucose. If a person is indeed making their glucose then they are also in Ketosis according to Bikman.
Imma trust him over your wife’s lax record keeping.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU
Also, Ketosis doesn’t make a person lose fat or burn fat. It’s not necessary to lose fat or to achieve health. Unless someone is treating a neurological condition, which they would be guided by a doctor, remaining in Ketosis above 0.5mmol full time isn’t an issue.
Also, you seemed to think Midwesterner had suggested that people need to eat carbs or something. You made comments about how your brain isn’t dying on 15g carbs. Nobody ever suggested any such thing.
Half the time you seem to be opposing statements that no one even made.2 -
"Are you familiar with the work of Ben Bikman?" Yes, do you visit the Low Carb and Keto sub forums regularly? If so you would see that I have posted his videos. And if you visit the Success main forum threads you would also find I have posted his videos there as well. Here's a link to another thread where I posted one of his videos which I suggest you watch and learn some stuff from: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10737990/info#latest
"He would really help you understand how it’s the process of GNG to provide the necessary 130g glucose each day that prompts ketogenesis." Did you even watch the video you linked lol? No where in the video does he mention anything at all about 130 g/day of glucose. I think you need to research some of the terms used in ketogenic lifestyle
Research the hormone Glucagon. In may help you in some ways with the info you seem to need more than others. Further you are very off here. I don't think you took in any of that video if you even did watch the whole thing. To make it simpler for you here ya go; start watching it at 21min 26 seconds where he describes the insulin:glucagon ratio declines as it's need for endogenous glucose increases. Nothing to do with "prompting ketogenisis" as you stated. He goes on further to say people would go on to become hypoglycemic without this metabolic occurrence. Something I have stated several times on this forum and is also why everyone In our group including my wife tests our blood ketones, our blood glucose, and gets regular blood and urine lab tests to see if our health is not only good but improving as we do this lifestyle and WOE. Further, the Dr goes on to say at 22:12 to 22:43 of the video that there is only one known cell in the human body that 100% needs glucose (nope not brain cells--(I know that's what you and your buddy Midwesterner would have guessed)---It's Erythrocytes lol.. He goes on to school you on more stuff you should actually watch and listen to. Man oh man.
"Anyone eating so little carbohydrate as to not supply all of that need, and whom also has minimal glycogen storage, will be in Ketosis" You are only partially right here and in fact you back up my information I stated where not every individual is the same. Look in to that further to learn more. Science, not opinion. Lot's of things come into play here like genetics, organ function, age/health, insulin resistance, diabetes etc etc... In fact your own video you linked by Dr. Bikman states this himself (he covers some of those things) at 30:25 to 35:45of the video; explaining how the carb level will have to be adjusted by the INDIVIDUAL himself for his/her metabolism and life factors.
"Testing methods and human error or simple lying is a much greater likelihood than some genetic defect that ultimately lead to death if a person could not make their own glucose. If a person is indeed making their glucose then they are also in Ketosis according to Bikman." Why are you even saying any of this kind of stuff? Where did I say anything anywhere about a person not being able to make their own glucose???!!!! LOL Please Sunny quote me quote me!!! You must be able to find that somewhere on one of my posts right in order for you to take the time to write this. Seriously by statements like this I am starting to wonder if you and your buddy are just trolling here. For real how else would you explain this?
"Imma trust him over your wife’s lax record keeping." Lol if you are gonna trust him (I certainly do) then you should practice what you say he preaches cause I don't really think you know anything about his teachings from your writings. Sorry but you showed that by how you didn't really even know what you posted the video about.
Further you don't have to trust anything about my wife's "lax record keeping" I could care less what you think about her record keeping lol. But if you actually want to learn more about things I welcome you to come for a visit and meet some people who would gladly help you out with "not lax record keeping" Like a years worth of doctor/dietician/specialists record keeping. They may be able to help you learn how to do strict record keeping
But they must all be lying like your statement above where you say "human error or simple lying" right Sunny?
Also, Ketosis doesn’t make a person lose fat or burn fat. It’s not necessary to lose fat or to achieve health. Unless someone is treating a neurological condition, which they would be guided by a doctor, remaining in Ketosis above 0.5mmol full time isn’t an issue." WT_!!!!!???? LOL ya right ketosis doesn't burn fat??? Are you for real? If the body doesn't have enough glucose it will burn body fat. If you don't know that please go find some information or just do a simple definition search of Ketosis man on man lol. Here ya go: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/180858.php. NO *KITTEN it's not necessary!! Who said it was?? Please Sunny go find a quote where I said it WAS necessary!! Anyone on this forum knows CICO deficit will also burn fat but who cares? Why are you here preaching that on this sub forum?? Cause you are a troll right?? This sub forum is for Keto folks who either want to burn their body fat by KETOSIS or to use ketosis for an athletic performance reason, or just for lifestyle. But for you to make a horribly false statement that it wont burn fat man oh man who are you trying to be? Keto (ketosis) is done to restrict glucose in order to make the metabolism BURN FAT FOR FUEL. But nowhere did I ever say it was necessary. Good god. I didn't realize you were that uninformed but now that does explain some of your other previous comments.
"Also, you seemed to think Midwesterner had suggested that people need to eat carbs or something. You made comments about how your brain isn’t dying on 15g carbs. Nobody ever suggested any such thing.
Half the time you seem to be opposing statements that no one even made. " No lol. He made the statement that my wife was neither producing ketones nor glucose. Read everything and quote me please!!!! I even quoted him as such and he stated I had said so. NOPE lol. Get your facts straight. That's why I quote y'all lol. He made the statements about the brain needing glucose.... hence my comment about my brain not dying. Good grief lol. This thread is very entertaining with the B._. In it.
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WOW!!!! Nothing about Ideas for low carb and low protein foods here. I started to read some of this but then got Nauseous half way threw.
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Giving advice like "IMO as long as you are limiting your carbs, you will get in to Ketosis." Is really counterproductive to people who want and need to know that they are in ketosis. A guessing game is no certain way to ensure you are doing what you set out to do. And sorry but it just isn't true that eating "limiting your carbs will get you into ketosis" Every metabolism is different and things written online about it like eat under 50 grams or 20 grams a day is just a very very basic guideline. No one will truly know they are in ketosis without testing for it. Why do it if you don't know you are truly converting your metabolism to burn off it's fat stores??
And your comment "I'm not really a fan of all of the fancy monitoring devices." Well if what you are doing without one is working then good for you but a scientific device created to give people accurate factual readings about their ketone levels is the most necessary item anyone trying to get into ketosis should have. Or you could just be spinning your wheels "hoping" you are in ketosis and guessing when and if you are in it.
Our brains (and CNS) need about 120g-130g of glucose daily. Unlike skeletal muscles, our brains cannot directly oxidize fat. However, our brains can use ketones in place of some carbs. After glycogen stores have been sufficiently depleted, glucose comes from only food and gluconeogenesis. Our livers will make ketones to feed our brains when insufficient glucose is available. So to say that 20g of net carbs will put someone (any human with a functioning brain) into ketosis is a fair statement. Is it possible that an outlier exists... someone who has such a high level of gluconeogeneis that they are not in a state of ketosis? Sure, it's scientifically possible. It's quite unlikely, though.
"quite unlikely" Nope not at all. My wife is one, and so are several people in our doctor supervised control group of 20. And if you do some research there are lot's and lot's and lot's of folks all over the world that struggle to get into ketosis simply by "trying" to eat under 50 or 20 grams of carbs a day.
Here is where you state your wife eats 20g of carbs and does not produce ketones.
Relevant sections:
"Is it possible that an outlier exists... someone who has such a high level of gluconeogeneis that they are not in a state of ketosis?"
"My wife is one, and so are several people in our doctor supervised control group of 20."1 -
Okay, all. ***MOD HAT HERE***
Please, everyone take a deep breath and step back. Aside from the fact that personal attacks are being made at this point, which is a violation of MFP's policies, in general you are all arguing the same basic points.
Semantics, wordplay, and perspective, as well as interpretation as to other's intentions are skewing perspective here.
No, everyone is not the same. No, a single set of experiment on a small test group does not an expert make. No, personal experience of 5-10 years in ketosis does not an expert make, either. Let's please be respectful.
There is also a huge difference between Medical Ketosis, which is how a ketogenic diet was initially developed - for management of neurological conditions -- and Nutritional Ketosis - for management of weight or health conditions like diabetes, etc. These two things cannot be used interchangeably.
Specific arguments made are taking items out of context. I am closing this post for comments at this time.
I would strongly suggest that everyone who reads this post to go back and reread the information here with a more open point of view. Much of the information is similar, even when two people stated what they saw as opposing points. Being rude and argumentative is not helpful, particularly with an air of superiority. It will not be tolerated in this group. Please go back to constructive sharing of information.
Also, please remember that they call the subject "practicing medicine," because no fact that we discover anywhere along the way is 100% proven. We can all always learn more, and sometimes what we learn down the road was correlation, not causation was the source of a specific reaction. Also, as even identical twins can have varying reactions to the same situational experiment due to environmental differences that cannot be controlled 100%, let's remember that just because something works for 1 person or 1,000,000 people - it does not guarantee that it will work for you, and the reverse is true, as well. Just because something doesn't work for you, it does not guarantee that it will not work for someone else.
Have a good day, all.2
This discussion has been closed.