Deficit Breaks
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@NovusDies Appreciate your input and the thread links!
Yes, I have (and use) a food scale and I am thinking of getting another to keep at my office. The "eyeball postulate" for measurements is more often wrong than right, lol. That being said when I said tighten up my food entries I intend to actually weigh an apple, not enter "medium, 2 1/2" diameter" as the entry. I typically weigh things like meat, cheese, etc. due it's calorie dense nature. I rely on measuring cups for liquids (milk, wine, etc.) but am proficient in utilizing the fl oz setting on my scale, so I will switch that up, too.
Bottom line: The math doesn't lie, I need to troubleshoot where my CICO logging is not accurate, including using the food scale and ensuring that I am truly logging everything.2 -
@hansep0012 Don’t underestimate the value of increasing your consumption of high quality foods, such as nutrient dense raw foods like spinach, kale, asparagus, broccoli, chard, cauliflower, zucchini, yellow squash, bok choy, cabbage, carrots, beets, and sweet potatoes.0
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@Satisfiedwithbetter Good tip about raw foods, I have a tendency to think I eat a lot of fruit and vegetables but the logging doesn't lie, I could use a few more entries each and every day!1
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@hansep0012 I asked a few of the questions to try to pinpoint a few things to try to dial in what may be the source of the stall. At this point I'm inclined to think it's a varity of issues, one being the measuring, that was addressed. I noticed you had some high days each week, which is why I asked when you weigh, those in combination with loose measuring could be enough to stall progress without realizing it. The last is that the stall started at about four months in, which would be consistant with when there starts to be the first signs of trouble with eating at a calorie deficit. Again this doesn't happen to everyone, but that's the common time for a stall to occur.
If you can really get the weighing/logging tightened I think you'll see some progress again once your break is done. If not we're here to try to help figure it out. Hang in there.1 -
Thank you, @ConfidentRaven for your observations, they make sense to me (which is really, really helpful!). I'm going to go for the most obvious path, as I mentioned in my reply to @NovusDies to really tighten up that tracking and keep at it.
I also will keep reminding myself it literally took me ten years to gain 100 pounds, yup, just ten a year, year after year after year. This current situation is a blip on my health journey and I'll push through - no giving up!3 -
hansep0012 wrote: »Thank you, @ConfidentRaven for your observations, they make sense to me (which is really, really helpful!). I'm going to go for the most obvious path, as I mentioned in my reply to @NovusDies to really tighten up that tracking and keep at it.
I also will keep reminding myself it literally took me ten years to gain 100 pounds, yup, just ten a year, year after year after year. This current situation is a blip on my health journey and I'll push through - no giving up!
You're welcome.
I know all about the ten pound creep, it's what I did for years, minus of course the occasional half *kitten* try at losing a little along the way.
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September has been a pretty frustrating month for me, weight-wise. I'm starting to consider one of these breaks. If I don't see some downward momentum by the end of the month, I'll likely give it a try.
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September has been a pretty frustrating month for me, weight-wise. I'm starting to consider one of these breaks. If I don't see some downward momentum by the end of the month, I'll likely give it a try.
Your results may be influenced by your new running program. It can make you retain water and mask results.1 -
I wouldn't doubt that's true. I really haven't changed much diet-wise. I think in the whole month I've only gone over budget once, and that's only by 100ish calories.
I'll try to take some solace in the fact that I've made some major strides (heh) in my running over the past month.2 -
I wouldn't doubt that's true. I really haven't changed much diet-wise. I think in the whole month I've only gone over budget once, and that's only by 100ish calories.
I'll try to take some solace in the fact that I've made some major strides (heh) in my running over the past month.
You may be in for quite a number of trips to a restroom in the near future. Watch those electrolytes. I lost over 17 pounds in 9 days... NO FUN!0 -
@merph518 It looks like a plateau to me, but I have been lulled into thinking this before by my primal brain (old habit brain), and in reality, it was a slow creep in not following MY actions and MY plan. Once I recognized it by answering the following questions, I was able to correct the process and start losing again. However, it could mean small changes are necessary.
Questions...
1. Is YOUR plan clearly defined?
2. Are you 100% committed to YOUR plan?
3. Are you following YOUR plan 100% of the time?
If you answered yes, a small change may be needed. I would try to eat more variety of nutrient rich non-starchy vegetables for a couple weeks before I went back to eating at maintenance, or taking a diet break. Sometimes just increasing the quality/nutrients in your food can correct an imbalance in your body and put you back on the path to losing weight.
Remember our primal brain at difficult times like these, is telling us, “it’s not working, you should quit.” The primal brain motive is to go back to your old habits.
If you do take a diet break, make sure to define the differences between your maintenance eating and your old bad habits to keep the primal brain under control.
Also, increases in physical activity causes a surge in water retention.
You got this!0 -
Yes/Yes/Yes.
My diet hasn't changed this month. Running for longer distances has been a new thing this month though, graduating from August's 1-3 minute jogging intervals up to 5, 8 and now 20 minute intervals in September. Likely Novus has the right of it, and I'm seeing water retention due to exercise and maybe some muscle added in there somewhere too.
While it does get frustrating not seeing the results my brain would like to see, mainly the scale number dropping, there's no danger of me quitting.
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Excellent! Your muscles will retain water when you tear the muscle fibers as you exercise and workout. You could easily see 3-4% swing in typical water weight.0
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Satisfiedwithbetter wrote: »@merph518 It looks like a plateau to me, but I have been lulled into thinking this before by my primal brain (old habit brain), and in reality, it was a slow creep in not following MY actions and MY plan. Once I recognized it by answering the following questions, I was able to correct the process and start losing again. However, it could mean small changes are necessary.
Questions...
1. Is YOUR plan clearly defined?
2. Are you 100% committed to YOUR plan?
3. Are you following YOUR plan 100% of the time?
If you answered yes, a small change may be needed. I would try to eat more variety of nutrient rich non-starchy vegetables for a couple weeks before I went back to eating at maintenance, or taking a diet break. Sometimes just increasing the quality/nutrients in your food can correct an imbalance in your body and put you back on the path to losing weight.
Remember our primal brain at difficult times like these, is telling us, “it’s not working, you should quit.” The primal brain motive is to go back to your old habits.
If you do take a diet break, make sure to define the differences between your maintenance eating and your old bad habits to keep the primal brain under control.
You got this!
I am not aware of any imbalance other than potassium deficiency that actually causes water retention. Fat weight loss cannot be stopped because of a deficiency. If it did no one would ever starve to death.
Eating a different way, and especially a way that reduces carbs, could hurt his running performance. He needs his glycogen.
ETA: Also a starchy vegetable - potato - is one of the better sources of potassium.
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@NovusDies who says I’m talking about water retention with regard to nutrient deficiencies? I’m talking purely about weight loss resistance and related deficiencies! Sorry for confusing you.0
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Satisfiedwithbetter wrote: »@NovusDies who says I’m talking about water retention with regard to nutrient deficiencies? I’m talking purely about weight loss resistance and related deficiencies! Sorry for confusing you.
Can you clarify this further? How would it ever be possible to resist weight loss if you were in a calorie deficit?0 -
IMHO, First, foremost and unfortunately - CICO is a empirical theory, not unlike almost everything else in life, except Math, Death & Taxes. Not all calories in the human body are created equal. Not all humans utilize the calories in food the same either. Again, it’s my understanding that nutrient deficiencies can actually cause your body to go into a pseudo starvation mode, where hormones that regulate our ability to digest and utilize food are adversely affected. Our guts ability to accept the nutrients can play a huge role in the efficiency or inefficiency of the effort. Anyway, don’t take my word for it, do your own research.0
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Satisfiedwithbetter wrote: »IMHO, First, foremost and unfortunately - CICO is a empirical theory, not unlike almost everything else in life, except Math, Death & Taxes. Not all calories in the human body are created equal. Not all humans utilize the calories in food the same either. Again, it’s my understanding that nutrient deficiencies can actually cause your body to go into a pseudo starvation mode, where hormones that regulate our ability to digest and utilize food are adversely affected. Our guts ability to accept the nutrients can play a huge role in the efficiency or inefficiency of the effort. Anyway, don’t take my word it, do your own research.
If someone starves to death they are in very bad need of nutrients. There is no starvation mode other than starving. While TEF can mean that the cost of processing things like protein can be higher than carbs that is majoring in the minors. Also despite what the internet might have us believe the human body is quite good at adapting to get what it needs from a variety of sources.
A calorie deficit must end with stored fuel in the body being consumed to make up the difference. When that stops we die.
The bodily process of weight loss is simple and it is best to keep it that way because losing weight has enough other challenges without muddying the waters.
You might want to take the theory to the main MFP Diet and Fitness section. There are people there smarter than me that can discuss this with you and help get to the bottom of it.0 -
We live and learn. I wish it all were simple math, unfortunately it’s not.0
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Satisfiedwithbetter wrote: »We live and learn. I wish it all were simple math, unfortunately it’s not.
Until I see peer-reviewed human studies that says otherwise I will stick to simple math and science. There are plenty of internet blogs that make good sounding arguments but they are there to sell advertising.
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It’s pretty easy. I’m sure everything adds up for you in your journey right now. Some way or another. It has for me in the past. Eventually, something may not add up for you and you’ll begin to question why. At first you’ll say, it falls somewhere between what’s in your stomach, intestines, bladder and water retention, and then you might start blaming the calories that your eating to be wrong, and then ultimately it will just be different, or you’ll just accept it to be different. But what do I know, having lived it myself several times. I’m probably different than everyone else, and of course, I’ve never suffered from the effects of perfectionism, and the process of being so anal about something like CICO.
@NovusDies I honestly wish you the best with your own experiment. It’s really nice when results add up, but can be very disappointing when they don’t. I’ve been disappointed enough by it in my life to understand there is more involved than CICO, at least for me.
I’m not saying a deficit in calories isn’t important and more importantly learning how not to overeat, I’m just saying there is a lot more to the equation for me.1 -
Satisfiedwithbetter wrote: »It’s pretty easy. I’m sure everything adds up for you in your journey right now. Some way or another. It has for me in the past. Eventually, something may not add up for you and you’ll begin to question why. At first you’ll say, it falls somewhere between what’s in your stomach, intestines, bladder and water retention, and then you might start blaming the calories that your eating to be wrong, and then ultimately it will just be different, or you’ll just accept it to be different. But what do I know, having lived it myself several times. I’m probably different than everyone else, and of course, I’ve never suffered from the effects of perfectionism, and the process of being so anal about something like CICO.
@NovusDies I honestly wish you the best with your own experiment. It’s really nice when results add up, but can be very disappointing when they don’t. I’ve been disappointed enough by it in my life to understand there is more involved than CICO, at least for me.
I’m not saying a deficit in calories isn’t important and more importantly learning how not to overeat, I’m just saying there is a lot more to the equation for me.
This isn't a peer-reviewed human study. This is actually just some cryptic post in which you are essentially patting me on my head for my naïveté. When I grow up maybe I will have all the answers that you do.
The thing is many people have come through MFP making claims at special requirements to lose weight and not one of them has ever proven a thing. The reason is people add 2+2 and get 22. Some people have a oddly suppressed NEAT when in a caloric deficit that throws off their numbers. Others can have odd water retention. I am one of them. I have waited almost 2 months before to get a new low weight. When it arrived I had lost everything I was suppose to lose at around 3500 calories per pound. Still others lack the patience to trust and wait. Many people fall in the last category. I was once one of them. They do something slightly different and then by coincidence or by a change that causes some water retention to release they believe the "something" is the plateau buster they needed.
If there was a true loophole to the basic energy equation of CICO it would be in a peer-reviewed human study.
One thing that is true is that while online TDEE and NEAT calculators work for the statistical majority of people they get some people wrong. Those people can go on to lose weight like everyone else but they have to manually correct their calorie goal with a deficit from their own numbers.3 -
Again, I’m glad CICO works for you. Further, if I had all the answers I wouldn’t be using MFP. I do have personal experiences with what has and hasn’t worked for me, and resemble all of the above results, failures and successes, but mostly failures. I have learned that not all calories are created equal as far as our body is concerned. I may not be a peer-reviewed study as you so expect to consider, but I am confident and committed to this truth, my truth. Again, we live and learn. Your experience can be different from mine. I am not a doctor, a nutritionist, a dietician, or anything that resembles an expert in the field of weight loss. I am a morbidly obese person with 20 year of failures under my belt, currently size 50.1
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Satisfiedwithbetter wrote: »Again, I’m glad CICO works for you. Further, if I had all the answers I wouldn’t be using MFP. I do have personal experiences with what has and hasn’t worked for me, and resemble all of the above results, failures and successes, but mostly failures. I have learned that not all calories are created equal as far as our body is concerned. I may not be a peer-reviewed study as you so expect to consider, but I am confident and committed to this truth, my truth. Again, we live and learn. Your experience can be different from mine. I am not a doctor, a nutritionist, a dietician, or anything that resembles an expert in the field of weight loss. I am a morbidly obese person with 20 year of failures under my belt, currently size 50.
Even if you were a doctor, a nutritionist, a dietitian, or an expert you could come to the wrong conclusion. Everyone is fallible. This is why I keep things very simple and stay within the confines of peer-reviewed human scientific studies. Even if one of them came to a new miraculous revelation that a few of us can manufacture energy in a way that is less ordinary I would wait for a confirmation study to back it up.
I do believe you can find success even with an alternate theory. People do it all the time. The internet is full of myths that have been "confirmed" by real results. I have certainly read many testimonials.
I personally believed in genetics determining your ability to lose weight and in weight set points. I have battled my weight since I was a teen and everything kept backing up my personal beliefs. Scale results and the fact that when I lost weight I would gain more because my "set point" would be reset confirmed it for over 30 years. When I did settle on a new weight it seemed to stay there for years. I was sure I was right. I was sure my body worked differently. I was not and it did not work differently. It held me back. CICO cuts through all the noise, biases, misinterpreted results, myths, etc. My spreadsheet shows me the truth time and time again. I have eaten a number of different ways in the last 18 months and they all balance the same.
Here in this group the conversations are limited to keeping it simple with a calorie deficit. I do not want people doubting the process each time the scale goes the wrong way... it is not helpful... for me it was not sustainable. Real proof is needed to change that rule.3 -
@Satisfiedwithbetter
Personally, I'm fine with people believing whatever they want to believe. But you should probably hold back when it comes to offering advice to others based on your personal theories. That said, your positivity has been contagious since you joined, please continue to share that. 4 -
@Satisfiedwithbetter
Personally, I'm fine with people believing whatever they want to believe. But you should probably hold back when it comes to offering advice to others based on your personal theories. That said, your positivity has been contagious since you joined, please continue to share that.
Well said.0 -
I have changed the title from Diet Break to Deficit Break to be more sensitive to people who are not happy with the word diet.
Since I am taking a break I should also document my experience.
Until October 14th, when I will reassess my progress, I will not be in any type of intentional deficit. The goal is to heal and to end the weight loss fatigue I have been experiencing.
During my 3 months of "hurry up" weight loss I have grown to really despise the process. Normally I allow myself to have a maintenance day whenever I feel the need. This usually keeps me from needing one at all. I respond better to knowing I spend so much time in a deficit out of choice not because I am forced to do it. It sounds like I am splitting hairs and I suppose I am but it works for me. I also respond better to my normal 6 day deficit system:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10735146/the-six-day-calorie-deficit-aka-banking-calories/p1
When I started my hurry up process I cut about 200 calories from my day and instead of having full maintenance on Sunday I had half deficit. Still more food but less satisfying.
I knew I could keep myself disciplined because so much was riding on me accomplishing everything but I also knew it would be no fun.
This is the thread I created about it:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10762903/how-i-went-from-sustainable-to-unsustainable/p1
I am a big believer in only using discipline and willpower to seal the cracks in the dam. I think if you use it to hold back all the water it gets exhausting and unsustainable. You need to like what you do and you need to take it easy on yourself and always put sustainability as a priority over speed. However sometimes things do not work the way it would be easiest and we have to dig deep. I can tell you right now if I had tried doing what I did during my "hurry up" for the entire weight loss I would have never lost the 230 pounds. I would have broken. I know because I recognize how I felt in many of my previous failures.
With the skin removal weight I can only guess at my TDEE but I believe it is at 2350 while recovering and sedentary. I am shooting for a daily goal of around 2600 because I would rather be in a slight surplus than in any type of deficit. I am not afraid of regaining a little weight. I am more afraid of stalling my healing and prolonging my mental fatigue.
I think the core of my fatigue is that I didn't have enough treats because I cut my calories and I never felt I could let "loose". I began having a less optimal relationship with food. Last night at 11:30 I raided the fridge for about 800 calories of leftover pizza. I will count it in today's calories. It felt so good to be relaxed.
What I have decided to do is eat my core calories inside my normal routine. This means filling up my nutritional requirements with nutrient dense lower calorie food. It also means it gives me a LOT of calories to play with each day for treats and whims. I am trying to play it smart on a few things. For instance I had a piece of a chocolate silk pie that whole was 510 calories. I ate half one day and half another. So my deficit break will still require smart decision making and calorie control but I do intend to have some fun too.
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@NovusDies Thank you for your insightful update! Continue to “do you”.... I’m sending good thoughts your way.0
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I thought I would do a check in and follow up on how things have gone post deficit. I had a little trouble getting fully back on track, very similar to what I experienced when I first started. I’m back fully on track and I’ve been eating at less of a deficit than before the break. However, I’m now losing at a healthier and more consistent pace, with far less binge moments.
I’ve set my calorie goals to lose a pound a week, but often eat to lose two a week. I’m enjoying having this flexibility and wish that I had done it this way from the start.4 -
ConfidentRaven wrote: »I thought I would do a check in and follow up on how things have gone post deficit. I had a little trouble getting fully back on track, very similar to what I experienced when I first started. I’m back fully on track and I’ve been eating at less of a deficit than before the break. However, I’m now losing at a healthier and more consistent pace, with far less binge moments.
I’ve set my calorie goals to lose a pound a week, but often eat to lose two a week. I’m enjoying having this flexibility and wish that I had done it this way from the start.
The same thing happened to me after my first diet break but since I was coming into the home stretch it turned out to be a good thing. In the end the whole thing was a great experience and I finally got to goal because of it. Congratulations on your progress! You are an inspiration to others.
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