NSV--Drowning on turns!

GGDaddy

This week I'm noticing a new swimming-related NSV...

In the past, when I turn and kick off the wall underwater, my internal flotation device (blubber) has gently propelled me to the surface just in time to turn my head and take a breath. Recently, however, my buoyancy seems much more neutral, and I've taken many gulps of water because my head isn't popping up like it used to.

Yay drowning!

--

On a separate note--wanted to ask this group. These days I'm swimming about 30-50 laps a session, freestyle straight through. I'm starting to try flip turns, but it throws me off my rhythm, and so far is a lot slower than just pushing off the wall, which by now I'm pretty efficient with.

I imagine if I work on flip turns, a few weeks/months from now it should be faster and more efficient. When swimming distances, do y'all bother flipping?

Thanks all!

GGDaddy

Macstraw

Keep doing the flip turns, they will get much faster as they become more natural to you. One of the keys is to not take a breath within at least the last 2 strokes before you flip (so that you don't lose momentum into the turn, especially if you tend to pick your head up to breathe) & to take a t least 2 strokes out of the turn before you take a breath (so that you come out of the turn & off the wall smoothly). You will get more used to it & you'll start to snap yourself over with a faster flip instead of just rolling over as you get more used to it.....

JenRunTriHappyGirl

Flip turns are the way to go! I count strokes..... meaning when I see the "T" at the bottom of the pool I know I take 1 more stroke and then flip. Practice doing them while you are not swimming laps. Maybe after a swim Just practive flip turns for 15 minutes. Go out into the middle of the pool and swim to the wall, flip and push off. That way you are not out of breath and you can get more comfortable with the motions before trying it during a swim. Trust me, once you learn it, there's no going back! Good luck!

And, yay for drowning!

ElBence

Always, always, always flip. It's just like any other technicality in a sport: the more you do it, the better you get. You'll find that as soon as you get good at flipping, it will become automatic.

As for your lack of flotation, I have two things to say: 1) yay for not having the body fat to get you to the top, and 2) work on building your lung capacity so that you can hold your breath for longer. Holding your breath for longer will achieve the same result as what the fat used to do, and you'll soon enough find out that a flip turn and glide off the wall can become a little break. The longer your glide, the longer your break. It's certainly my moment of zen at the end of every length.

GGDaddy

Great advice gang, thanks. Swam 30 minutes using flip turns, and can see where it's going. Looking forward to when it's more relaxing/zen, and less think/hope/fight/snort/hope-for-better-next-turn.

What a difference it makes when:

- arms both start and finish pointed toward the other wall (and don't try to help with the turn)
- I'm patient to let my legs come fully around, so I'm pushing slightly upward (versus pushing too early, and pushing myself downward)

Thanks again gang!

Macstraw

Great job, keep at it!!!!!!

Lynn_SD

Hi, I'm a newbie poster here, but...are you wearing a swim cap? I find that it makes an enormous difference in head buoyancy.

GGDaddy

No swim cap, also my swimsuits double for parachute pants... I'm not really trying to streamline; I always swim after weight training to add cardo, and I figure the extra drag makes me work harder. These days I'm doing ~67 seconds per 25m lap without flipturns (or about 80 seconds with flipturns :-) Looking forward to the flipturns improving in upcoming weeks/months...

Macstraw

I make the kids I coach wear 2 suits for the extra drag, you're on the right track with that........

fishgutzy

I never flip turn. Never learned. For my goals (no plans to ever compete), flipping out is of no real benefit. I'm fine with the fuddy duddy push turn. :bigsmile:
Besides, I am no where near swimming fast enough that the second or two that flipping would help.

holly1283

I never flip turn. Never learned. For my goals (no plans to ever compete), flipping out is of no real benefit. I'm fine with the fuddy duddy push turn. :bigsmile:
Besides, I am no where near swimming fast enough that the second or two that flipping would help.

Your my kind of guy! Same with me. At 62 who cares but me and I don't care if I flip or not.

GGDaddy

Hey gang,

Thanks again for all of the awesome advice above. I'm starting to understand how each element of advice above makes a big difference, and is sage experience talking.

Had a neat experience last night. I swam for 30 minutes, and at one point starting thinking about a work problem. I realized a few minutes later I had done 2-3 flipturns without even noticing or thinking it through.

Learned a lesson (courtesy of http://youtu.be/LaKy8Ox1lKE ) that if I hold my legs straight for just a millisecond longer, it keeps me from "turtling" to the bottom of the pool on my back.

My question for you all: after pushing off the wall, I've started turning my head through before my body finishes turning. I discovered it shortens the time I need to blow through my nose, which lets me glide longer, and better bouyancy to surface when I need to. Is this a good idea or a bad habit?

Thanks again!

Macstraw

If it's working for you then it's a good idea. There is no 1 exact way to do a flip turn - some people tuck into a really tight cannonball & flip very close to the wall, others flip more in a pike or jackknife position with the legs out a bit straighter. If turning your head over sooner gets you into a better position, then by all means do it. Ideally try to come up from your glide into your stroke & take at least 2 strokes before your 1st breath - this will help with your momentum going forward by having you already in proper swimming position before you breathe. If you breathe as you come up the tendency is to lift your upper body & it kills all your momentum from the push off the wall.........

zorbaru

ive never been able to flip turn. hell i cant even flip stationary in the pool. but i always wondered why flip turns arent used for butterfly?

Macstraw

Butterfly requires a 2 hand touch on the wall, as opposed to freestyle which just requires that you touch the wall - hand(s), feet, butt, head, it doesn't matter...........

zorbaru

Butterfly requires a 2 hand touch on the wall, as opposed to freestyle which just requires that you touch the wall - hand(s), feet, butt, head, it doesn't matter...........

ah ok, i didnt realise there was rules. i just figured it was hit the wall to turn. i always thought the butterfly turns looked quicker anyway.

matthew_b

Always, always, always flip. It's just like any other technicality in a sport: the more you do it, the better you get. You'll find that as soon as you get good at flipping, it will become automatic.

I totally agree. I had to fight the flip turn for months before it became natural. Now it's totally natural and it seems much slower to no use one.

As for your lack of flotation, I have two things to say: 1) yay for not having the body fat to get you to the top, and 2) work on building your lung capacity so that you can hold your breath for longer. Holding your breath for longer will achieve the same result as what the fat used to do,

My problem is that I use part of my lung capacity to keep my nose free of water when I flip. If I don't exhale, I get water up my nose.

and you'll soon enough find out that a flip turn and glide off the wall can become a little break. The longer your glide, the longer your break. It's certainly my moment of zen at the end of every length.

You don't dolphin kick while streamlining?

I'm cardio limited. I have enough body muscle that my entire swim is cardio limited. If I don't feel like I'm dying for air during that part of the swim, I figure I'm not working hard enough. When I start getting dizzy during that part, I figure I'm swimming too hard.

matthew_b

If it's working for you then it's a good idea. There is no 1 exact way to do a flip turn - some people tuck into a really tight cannonball & flip very close to the wall, others flip more in a pike or jackknife position with the legs out a bit straighter. If turning your head over sooner gets you into a better position, then by all means do it. Ideally try to come up from your glide into your stroke & take at least 2 strokes before your 1st breath - this will help with your momentum going forward by having you already in proper swimming position before you breathe. If you breathe as you come up the tendency is to lift your upper body & it kills all your momentum from the push off the wall.........

Thanks Macstraw, it's great to have a swim coach giving advice!

Interesting advice on the breathing at the end. This is something I need to try and work on. What I notice is that it seems like I'm broaching the surface based on momentum. I'm not trying to pop my head up but it comes up because I gain upward momentum. I think I flip too deep which mean that I have to arch up to come to the surface.

I think it may run in the family though ;-). My daughter does the same thing. I run the console for swim meets, and when somebody misses the pad on a turn I have to add the lap manually. My daughter has done a 500 without touching the pad once except for the finish.

matthew_b

Butterfly requires a 2 hand touch on the wall, as opposed to freestyle which just requires that you touch the wall - hand(s), feet, butt, head, it doesn't matter...........

ah ok, i didnt realise there was rules. i just figured it was hit the wall to turn. i always thought the butterfly turns looked quicker anyway.

Butterfly and breaststroke both require the two hand touch. It's often a hard one to judge because the fast swimmers will only brush the wall with one hand and push hard with the other. Unless you are watching the approach and initial touch, you've got to give the benefit to the swimmer.

Macstraw

Thanks Macstraw, it's great to have a swim coach giving advice!

Interesting advice on the breathing at the end. This is something I need to try and work on. What I notice is that it seems like I'm broaching the surface based on momentum. I'm not trying to pop my head up but it comes up because I gain upward momentum. I think I flip too deep which mean that I have to arch up to come to the surface.

I think it may run in the family though ;-). My daughter does the same thing. I run the console for swim meets, and when somebody misses the pad on a turn I have to add the lap manually. My daughter has done a 500 without touching the pad once except for the finish.

All you need to do is stay tucked for a moment longer, you're probably opening up a hair too soon & this causes you to go deeper when you push off the wall, then you have to fight up to the surface causing you to pop up out of the water. Focus on coming straight out from the wall instead of down, you'll be able to hold enough breaths for the 2 strokes out of the turn which allows you to stay in that good prone position instead of popping up to breathe.....

In one of your other responses you mention using lung capacity during the turn to keep the water out of your nose, you can do this using very little air - it doesn't need to be constantly expelled through the nose to keep the water out, you can just push enough there to create pressure (kind of like an air bubble) to keep the water out. This will also allow you to have enough breath to take the 2 strokes out of the turn.....

As a former 500 swimmer myself - although it creates work for the people outside the pool, just keep your daughter focused on the actual swimming & making sure she hits the pad on the last lap to get a time. If her turn is the same as yours, pass on my advice if you think it will help her. I'm also sure you can find videos on You Tube that would help...........

ElBence

My problem is that I use part of my lung capacity to keep my nose free of water when I flip. If I don't exhale, I get water up my nose.

Slower exhale through the first two thirds of the flip turn, and during the glide, hold what's left. It works for me.

You don't dolphin kick while streamlining?

Not unless I'm racing. During most of my workout sets, my kick and streamline are usually enough to get me 2-3 yards past the flags after I flip. That's good enough for me.