Thinking of switching to 5/3/1

firstsip

So I've been weight training for over a year now, more strictly StrongLifts for maybe 8 of those months, something like MadCow the last few months (not upping weight as aggressively). I've done at least two full deloads, in the middle of a small deload now, because I'm reaching a point with lifting + deficit where I'm not quite getting any gains.

Should I expect any sort of strength gain switching programs if I'm at a deficit? I'm slowly upping my calories every several weeks, since I had some boo-boos in training (my thyroid levels went ultra-hypo, and I had some weeks of lots of undereating stupidly).

The program seems appealing for how it's split: I like the 4x a week strength training in the winter as my cardio drops off outside. I'm hoping doing a 5/3/1 with BBB accessory work helps me achieve a bit more strength.

Ultimately, my "main" goal is more aesthetic (body recomp, lower body fat %), but strength is still important, and I worry that the level caps I keep getting in SL despite proper form, accessory work, deloads, etc. might end up not helping me down that road.

In general, also, how have people's experiences with 5/3/1 gone?

Looking for discussion, input... whatever!

(Side note: Using this site, http://www.strstd.com/, my lifts are considering Intermediate... except for my nemesis, bench, which is considered novice).

da_bears10089

I'm almost done with my 2nd wave of 5/3/1 and I love it. I was doing SL 5x5 as well, and then i got to a point where i couldn't progress with my squats anymore, and decided to change it up. The accessory work is awesome as well, that is where you could get some variety in if you wanted, but i typically stick with the same 2 exercises for those.

ETA: One of my friends on here told me that I will see big changes in my body from this program. Now if only i would stop eating like my inner fatty wants me to..

catfive1

Interested in the responses to this.

kirabob

I moved from SL to Texas to Wendler - I'm only in my first cycle, but I am enjoying it. Recomp and strength is only going to happen if you are eating enough for your body to make muscles with - but even that kind of change takes a lot of time. And progress on Wendler is slow (1x a month). I moved because my hips couldn't stand heavy squats 3x a week anymore, and I needed a little more variety for my particular goal set. So it depends on your patience/nutrition/goals.

DopeItUp

Seems only logical to me. I started with SL, then Madcow, and will be going to 5/3/1 next too. Also all in a deficit like you. My gainz have slowed to a crawl too but I'm trying to wring every last pound out of Madcow right now as I recover from my hip flexor tweak. Once I get back to full strength with my squats (at least match my previous PR) I will switch over to 5/3/1. Probably in 4-6 weeks.

firstsip

Thanks everyone!!

Sarauk2sf

How much longer do you expect to be at a deficit for? Have you had your form critique'd on your lifts?

firstsip

How much longer do you expect to be at a deficit for? Have you had your form critique'd on your lifts?

For the latter, yes.

For the former... er, indefinitely? BAD ANSWER. I intend to stay at a deficit pretty much until I have lost more belly fat (which is the the last area on my body to hold any, as the rest of my body parts are pretty firm, small, etc.)

tomcornhole

I switched to 5/3/1 from SS. I'm in my 3rd cycle and making good gains. Recovery was too difficult in a cut on SS and I wasn't progressing. I really like 5/3/1 and all of my lifts are going in the right direction and recovery is much better. I feel strong most days that I lift, although I still have the occasional day where I just don't feel it. Not many of those on 5/3/1 where on SS I felt that way every lift day. I am going to stick with 5/3/1 for a while and see where it takes me.

BarbellApprentice

I was doing mostly dumbbell lifting since Jan. of this year. I made progress. However, I am now in my 4th week of 5/3/1 (as directed by SS) and LOVE IT. Moving to 5/3/1 heavy BB lifts has been so enjoyable, and I can see changes in my body already.

Shyloh1

I think I'm going to switch to 5/3/1 after I finish Strong Curves....

I looked on Amazon for the book,which one do I get first??

I never thought I'd say this,(from a former cardio junkie)....I actually enjoy lifting more than ever!

tomcornhole

5/3/1: The Simplest and Most Effective Training System for Raw Strength (2nd Edition) by Wendler, Jim (Dec 5, 2012)

Troublemonster

One more chiming in in favor of Wendler. I am finishing up cycle 6 and have not missed a strength goal yet. I love the way it steps up then steps back and approaches it progressively to break through the next goal. I have added some volume in the form of extra sets/pyramid sets in order to add in some hyper trophy aspects of the workout.

I don't know much about doing 5/3/1 on a deficit but I will be trying it starting today as I have decided to get leaner again. I would recommend going at it until you can't keep up with it then either adjust the maxes in the program to suit your ability and carry on. I am amazed every cycle that I am able to hit the target weights in every exercise when the max weight seemed heavy last month.

Shyloh1

5/3/1: The Simplest and Most Effective Training System for Raw Strength (2nd Edition) by Wendler, Jim (Dec 5, 2012)

Thank you!:)

Phoenix_Warrior

I would love updates from those who started 5/3/1. I just started today. It seems to be the most time efficient way to make gains and that's perfect since my lifting time is restricted to when my kids take naps.

danimalkeys

I'm at the deload week of the 2nd cycle, on my 2nd pass thru the whole routine. I started it in May, went thru 5 full cycles. I changed my diet up to a lower carb thing, started dropping weight, and felt like I was getting weaker. This is pretty common, that your lifts will go down as you lose weight, so while I was hitting the weights and reps, I felt I wasn't getting as many reps on the last set as I thought I should. Like I thought I should get 6 reps of a squat weight that I had done earlier in the cycle, and only got 4. I figured I'd lost enough weight to regroup and retest my lifts and start the routine over. I took my last cycle's weights/reps and plugged those into the spreadsheet to start over. I actually found that I was using more weight than I had in the 1st pass thru the routine. So, while I thought I was getting weaker, I was getting stronger.

I don't do a 4 day routine because of my schedule. I do the squat workout Monday, bench Tuesday, and then combine deadlifts and presses on Thursday. I also do limited assistance. On squat day I only do 1 assistance lift, wide stance box squats for 5x10. Bench day I do close grip bench, bent rows, and curls for assistance. Deadlift/press day, I do a couple extra sets of deads, hit the press workout, and then finish up with 2 sets of as many chin-ups as I can get.

I like the routine, it's pretty quick, you can mix up the assistance lifts if you get bored, and the ramp up/ deload process lets you continue to increase your weight without burning out.

firstsip

I'm at the deload week of the 2nd cycle, on my 2nd pass thru the whole routine. I started it in May, went thru 5 full cycles. I changed my diet up to a lower carb thing, started dropping weight, and felt like I was getting weaker. This is pretty common, that your lifts will go down as you lose weight, so while I was hitting the weights and reps, I felt I wasn't getting as many reps on the last set as I thought I should. Like I thought I should get 6 reps of a squat weight that I had done earlier in the cycle, and only got 4. I figured I'd lost enough weight to regroup and retest my lifts and start the routine over. I took my last cycle's weights/reps and plugged those into the spreadsheet to start over. I actually found that I was using more weight than I had in the 1st pass thru the routine. So, while I thought I was getting weaker, I was getting stronger.

I don't do a 4 day routine because of my schedule. I do the squat workout Monday, bench Tuesday, and then combine deadlifts and presses on Thursday. I also do limited assistance. On squat day I only do 1 assistance lift, wide stance box squats for 5x10. Bench day I do close grip bench, bent rows, and curls for assistance. Deadlift/press day, I do a couple extra sets of deads, hit the press workout, and then finish up with 2 sets of as many chin-ups as I can get.

I like the routine, it's pretty quick, you can mix up the assistance lifts if you get bored, and the ramp up/ deload process lets you continue to increase your weight without burning out.

Thanks! Do you have a link to the spreadsheet you use? Or did you create one yourself?

danimalkeys

I downloaded it from here:
http://www.diystrengthtraining.com/workout-spreadsheets-links/wendler-5-3-1-workout-spreadsheet/

DopeItUp

I downloaded it from here:
http://www.diystrengthtraining.com/workout-spreadsheets-links/wendler-5-3-1-workout-spreadsheet/

Thanks for that. Lots of links to other spreadsheets too. I will try them all!

danimalkeys

It's pretty easy to use. Before you start, test for something like a 3 to 5 rep max on the 4 lifts, plug those numbers in, and it takes care of everything. Don't use more than 5 reps or it'll skew your 1RM estmates, at least it does for me. You'll need to add in a % for your assistance lifts to increase each week. I use 3%, that comes out to 5lbs or so for the weights I'm using. Also, it doesn't round well, and you'll get a lot of "232lbs" that if you do 230, it's too low, but 235 is too high if you look at the jumps from the prior or next week. I happen to have a pair of 1.25lb plates so I can get 2.5lb increments if I need to, but if you are working in a commercial gym, it might not be possible. Maybe get a set of those wrist or ankle weights that you can hang over the bar to get those smaller increments. Also, when it lists weird weights like 189lbs", just round up to 190, etc.

Also, on the warmups for bench and overhead press, I always start with the empty bar and do a 10-20 rep set to get things moving. It's just something I've done for years and it works for me, so I keep doing it. For squats I always start with bodyweight and get everything stretched out, then do 135x8 regardless of what the warmups show. Same for deadlifts.

Sarauk2sf

I downloaded it from here:
http://www.diystrengthtraining.com/workout-spreadsheets-links/wendler-5-3-1-workout-spreadsheet/

Nice link - thanks

rjmudlax13

Tagging.

I am going to start 5/3/1 in January.

haroon_awan

Any update on this thread? Interested in responses.

DopeItUp

Started 5/3/1 BBB this week. It's pretty brutal. And awesome. Results to be seen in a year or two.

tomcornhole

I have an update. In cycle 3, I started to do joker sets on 5/31/ days to see what my 1RM was doing. That was awesome. My 1RM was much higher than my max lifts in 5/3/1 just as Jim said it would be. My max working weight on DL was 1x305 and I was able to joker up to 1x390. My max working weight for squat was 1x215 and I was able to joker up to 1x280. Life was good.

Then I got stupid in cycle 5. I skipped the deload week at the end of cycle 4. I started to joker up to 1RM every week. I compressed the schedule by doing 2 weeks of lifts in 10 days thinking I could accelerate my gains. That did not work. Injured my shoulders (again) and my right knee. I could not bench, squat or press. Anything. Life happened and I stopped lifting for 20 days. My knee is healed but my shoulders are still giving me issues.

I did a deload last week and this week was spent finding my new 1RM's. The good news is my DL and squat strength are still there. Who would have thought you could hit a PR on DL after 20 days off? Bench and press are still limited by shoulder issues.

So, I reset all my lifts to numbers I can hit with good form. I will follow the program to the T. I will still do joker sets, but only on 5/3/1 days. And I will do the deload week. I learned a lot from going too far. 5/3/1 works.

Tom

danimalkeys

Pushing for a 1rm week in and week out is a plan for disaster, as you found out! I hope everything that isn't healed heals up for you!

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Sarauk2sf

I have an update. In cycle 3, I started to do joker sets on 5/31/ days to see what my 1RM was doing. That was awesome. My 1RM was much higher than my max lifts in 5/3/1 just as Jim said it would be. My max working weight on DL was 1x305 and I was able to joker up to 1x390. My max working weight for squat was 1x215 and I was able to joker up to 1x280. Life was good.

Then I got stupid in cycle 5. I skipped the deload week at the end of cycle 4. I started to joker up to 1RM every week. I compressed the schedule by doing 2 weeks of lifts in 10 days thinking I could accelerate my gains. That did not work. Injured my shoulders (again) and my right knee. I could not bench, squat or press. Anything. Life happened and I stopped lifting for 20 days. My knee is healed but my shoulders are still giving me issues.

I did a deload last week and this week was spent finding my new 1RM's. The good news is my DL and squat strength are still there. Who would have thought you could hit a PR on DL after 20 days off? Bench and press are still limited by shoulder issues.

So, I reset all my lifts to numbers I can hit with good form. I will follow the program to the T. I will still do joker sets, but only on 5/3/1 days. And I will do the deload week. I learned a lot from going too far. 5/3/1 works.

Tom

Sounds like something I would do/have done.

I was PR'ing all over the place when running The Frequency Project (a 5/3/1 program) while bulking and got a little carried away and threw my shoulder out setting a 1RM PR on bench. Set me back months for bench and OHP and I am still not at 100% with the strength in my upper body.

It is really hard for me to reign myself back when things are going so well, so I *try* and focus on PRs for reps now. I am not always successful, but at least it means I am not going for 1RMs all the time like I was.

Sarauk2sf

Also, on the warmups for bench and overhead press, I always start with the empty bar and do a 10-20 rep set to get things moving. It's just something I've done for years and it works for me, so I keep doing it. For squats I always start with bodyweight and get everything stretched out, then do 135x8 regardless of what the warmups show. Same for deadlifts.

I add in a couple of sets for warm ups now, as I was finding I was getting niggles here and there which I did not want to turn into full blown problems.

Like you, I warm up with the bar for all my lifts (except deads) with a set or two of 10. I have 15lb bumper plates so I use those for deadlifts. I was doing 165lb on deads for my first warm up set for a while until I was getting the stern disapproving fatherly look from SS! My groin thanks him as I have less recovery issues taking it slower warming up and my session goes better.

haroon_awan

My groin thanks him

I built my own spreadsheet because I found errors in ones you download, I also found that people make them overly complicated. I'm sure they make sense to them, but I hugely distrust others excel abilities. So, I made my own. The reson that I am saying this is because you should make your own spreadsheet. When you do that, you will absolutely and fully understand the program. It's a little complex and I think many people misunderstand the fact that you never ever hit your max. You always work from 90% of your 1RM. I see so many people miss that point. There are also small details that you learn when you are building the spreadsheet.

Also, make sure you read the latest edition. So, there are two books you HAVE to read. The first book, 2nd edition. And, his latest book, Beyond 5/3/1. His latest book adds things like less deload. one every 6 weeks instead of every 4. He admits that a deload every 4 weeks is probably over-doing it. I TOTALLY AGREE. Every 6 is over-doing it too, IMO. But, whateves. It also adds lots of alternatives, which is nice. The latest book is NOT a stand-alone book, however. It is a compliment to the first. You can't just pick up the latest book and go to work. You'd be so confused. Lol.

I see so many people at the gym working to failure all the time, like it used to. It's amusing because I don't have to do that anymore. And, I break personal records every single month. I'm killing it on OHP, bench press, and Deadlift. My squats are blowing wind, but I'm working on it. Anyway, it's a cool way to work out. It's my favorite program ever. I absolutely love it.

That's my $.02

Do you mind sharing your spreadsheet for when I start, I would be interested in seeing it.

Sarauk2sf

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