Full body vs split routine, cut and bulk cycles etc.

JustSammi

Hi. I'm fairly new to lifting, I've only been doing it since January but have seen great results. I started doing a body weight program then progressed to a dumbbell routine and then onto Stronglifts 5x5 which I'm doing currently.

I'm focused on doing a full body strength routine right now to preserve muscle mass whilst I'm losing fat on a deficit. However, I'm pretty close to my goal now and I've started considering what I'm going to do with my training once I'm there. I'll probably want to do a cut and bulk cycle and I have a few questions about what I should do for body recomposition.

I'm thinking doing a heavy, fully body strength routine on cuts as I'm doing now would be good for preserving muscle, but I'm considering a split hypertrophy routine doing more reps at a lower weight for when I bulk, making use of the extra calories. Is this optimal? I hear a lot that strength, low reps, high weights is best but then I wonder why bodybuilders do split routines if this isn't the best way to grow muscle?

I've done research and I can't get a clear answer because there's so many people who are insistant on strength only and then there's people who never lift heavy and only ever do split routines.

I would like to think doing a mix of both would be best but I'm not exactly an expert. :laugh: If someone could break this down for me it would be really useful for deciding on my goals.

Thanks!

tomcornhole

Great question. Tagging to follow.

Hendrix7

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-frequency-for-mass-gains.html

This sums up my thoughts on the subject......I run an upper/lower split 2x per week most of the time.

cajuntank

Tagging.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging (however, I expect Hendrix has it covered).

ssaraj43

Tagging to follow.

SideSteel

Read what Hendrix posted, but I'll add in some general thoughts here. Still on my first cup of coffee though....

I'm thinking doing a heavy, fully body strength routine on cuts as I'm doing now would be good for preserving muscle, but I'm considering a split hypertrophy routine doing more reps at a lower weight for when I bulk, making use of the extra calories. Is this optimal?

Here's my take on this. This is just my opinion based on what I've read and my current experiences.

I don't know that you need to arbitrarily switch routines when going from cutting to bulking.

That being said, if you are cutting and you're having issues recovering, removing some volume is a reasonable step. As calories come back up it would therefore make sense to add volume back in.

But I don't know that I would immediately remove volume from the program or immediately switch things as calories change, unless you're at a level where you know what needs to be done through training experience/etc. To clarify: I would anticipate that most beginners through intermediates can probably still make solid progress in a reasonable energy deficit, and they may not have the same recovery issues.

I hear a lot that strength, low reps, high weights is best but then I wonder why bodybuilders do split routines if this isn't the best way to grow muscle?

This is one of those things where I think people get wrapped into black and white mindset where the middle is entirely excluded. Speaking of Lyle, read this:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

Having said that, as far as "what bodybuilders do" I'm not sure I'd use that as a basis for what you should do. There's plenty of bodybuilders who are on a very isolated body-part split who would probably make significantly better progress doing a higher frequency program. Conversely there are probably many people who primarily want hypertrophy who are training primarily for strength, and this probably isn't optimal either.

As a general comment/observation --my belief is that training at a higher frequency and lower volume will tend to be superior for beginners. Your lifts go up faster, you train the movement patterns more frequently, and your need for training stimulus is lower in the beginning. All of these things would seem to point towards a full body routine being a better match for someone in the beginning. At some point, the weights you are working with are going to get quite heavy and recovery is going to become an issue so you may need to space out the training days a bit further to increase recovery. Additionally, you get to a point where minimal volume is no longer sufficient -- these things would point towards something like an upper/lower routine for example.

So what I'm basically getting at is that I think there's a lot of people who might be on a split routine because that's what random bodybuilder A is doing and he wrote about it in the latest issue of Muscle Weekly, and if a pro bodybuilder is doing it, then first-time-in-the-gym-Bob should do it too!

Finally, regarding heavy vs light, and high reps vs low reps, I still think that's context dependent. As a generalization I think that becomes more important once you're no longer a beginner. And as a massive point of clarity I'm not implying that you are a beginner, I'm just making some generalizations here. EDIT: I see you did say that you are fairly new to lifting, so this probably does apply to you.

One approach that I've recently taken with my training is to make sure I'm training in multiple rep ranges. Since my goals are both strength and hypertrophy, I'm training the main barbell movements using 5/3/1 and I'm training my accessory movements in a higher rep range. I'm also using some of the main bb movements as accessories. So for example, I'll squat heavy in a low rep range and I'll also squat at moderate load in a higher rep range.

My opinion on this is subject to change, but my current overall training philosophy is that if my goals are both strength and hypertrophy but I spent the entire time training in a very low rep range, even if I'm getting stronger it stands to reason that I'm probably missing out on adaptations that may occur in a higher rep range. From a "moderation" standpoint, it seems logical to me that training (and getting stronger) in multiple rep ranges is likely to "cover my *kitten*" so to speak.

If someone could break this down for me it would be really useful for deciding on my goals

I would state your goals and then match the program to it, and to your training experience.

Are you concerned about how strong you are? Are you concerned strictly with hypertrophy? Are you concerned about any performance metrics outside of strength?

And I'd also be curious about the following which are quite important:

Are you making progress on your current routine?
Do you ENJOY your current routine?

JustSammi

Thank you Hendrix and SideSteel. I have a lot of reading to do thanks to your replies so I will let you know when I've had a good think about what I want.

I'm definitely still a newbie when it comes to lifting. I think it has taken me quite a long time to master proper form so I've recently deloaded and started Stronglifts again, hoping to do it properly this time. I do enjoy this routine and don't have any issues with recovery but I'm not lifting heavy at all at the moment. It's taken me quite a long time to get my form right, especially on squats. I think this is because I didn't feel confident doing them even inside a squat rack. I also had issues getting parallel in the beginning but I've sorted this out now by doing goblet squats for a few weeks. Perhaps I'm asking this question too soon as I've still got around 15-20lbs of fat to lose before I even start thinking about bulking.

My goal right now, for this last 15-20lbs of fat I have to lose is to maintain as much muscle as possible and to get as strong as I can on a calorie deficit. This is why I chose Stronglifts. From my research, a progressive loading program is definitely what I need and doing compound lifts appears to be safer for beginners. The program fits very well into my lifestyle as I don't think I'll ever want to work out more than 3/4 times a week.

I guess my goals after I've lost this fat are kind of hypothetical as I actually have no idea what I'll look like and if I'll be happy with my body. I am probably asking this question too soon. Maybe I'll be completely happy and will just want to maintain my physique and carry on making strength gains. But to be honest, I think I'll still want to improve myself, I think that's just human. :laugh:

To simplify, my main goal is strength but I do want some definition which I know will also come with being lean.

Also, in regards to 5/3/1. I've researched that program a little before and I'm very interested in it. Though I'm thinking it might be better for me when I'm eating at maintenance or above, because of doing the accessory work in high rep ranges.

SideSteel, mind if I ask what sort of exercises you do for accessory work and in what rep ranges?

I think you've given me the answer I was looking for to be honest. I thought I'd need a mix of both and that seems to be true but you're doing it in the same workout instead of in cycles like I thought about.

Thanks for your time.

darkestdayz

tagged

elly1979

By no means am I an expert or as smart as the folks running this group.

I did full body for about a year. I had a ho e gym and maxed out on my capacity to squat and bench higher. Heavier DLs (in SS 5x5) were killing my knee.

And I needed to cut.

I switched to Cathe STS, a 3-day split, and have been on it for 3 weeks. One day a week. i add in a full body if I feel adequately rested. Her split is like: 1. Shoulders, chest, biceps. 2. Legs 3. Triceps, back.

This routine helps me sustain a cut. With the split, I find I'm not as famished as I was full body. The energy I do have finds a better home with the splits.

But because I love/miss full body so much, I threw in the Cathe STS total body routine 1x a week.

Note I decrease weight on my split leg day, and watch my fatigue levels during the full body. I go lighter on some moves so I don't overtax my CNS.

Now this could be a totally bunk plan, and I am open to hearing that feedback, but it works nicely so far. Oh, I don't cardio besides walking.