kidney pain -related to paleo /whole 30 and keto?

redheadmommy

I am wondering if anybody experience kidney pain and generally kidney problems on paleo/primal especially in keto? I restarted primal maybe 6-7 months ago after my 2nd baby. As I was breastfeeding I was started with relatively higher carb version 175 g carb and slowly dropped the carbs first to 150 g, than 125 g , than 100 g than 85 g and I am around 65-75g ( net 40-50g) since November 1st when I started Whole 30. Maybe because of breastfeeding, ketostix started to show trace amount around 100-110g carb level, and constantly medium level since I am below 85 g, and now sometimes shows large amount of ketones. I am eating around 100 g (+/-15g) protein, which is really medium and not high level as I am 205lb and LBM is 125 lb, and I eat this or higher level than this for years.

About a week or 10 days ago( 1 week into whole 30), I started to have some minor dull back pain. First I didn't make much of it, as I though uncomfortable sleep or carrying too much my 20+ lb baby or sometimes lift my 45 lb kindergardener is the source. Over the last week the pain became stronger and stronger , and now it is really clear that it is not my back, but actually my kidneys. I used to have lots of kidney troubles as small child, but had a urethra surgery when I was almost 8 yrs old, and never had any problems with my kidneys for the past 30 years not even during pregnancies. In any case initially I was a bit uneasy about the whole ketosis thing due to my past kidney troubles, but weight loss was not really happening, so I went for it. I have a drs appointment tomorrow and I am not sure what to tell my Dr about my eating habits.
We all know that paleo and especially keto lifestyle is not really supported by general practitioners. If I tell my dr about paleo and keto, I am sure she would tell me to stop regardless if it is actually related or not. But actually it may be the cause of my kidney problems.
I would appreciate any advice or experience you can share.

TriLifter

No clue--I hope you get some answers!

Dragonwolf

Some thoughts:

1. Try to find a new doctor. As you stated yourself, she's probably not going to support Paleo/keto and will likely jump to blame that instead of looking for the true underlying cause. Protein is generally the culprit in kidney issues that stem from macronutrients, not fat. As long as your protein didn't increase, it shouldn't really be a factor.

2. Since you have a history of kidney troubles, it is possible the protein amount you're eating is too much for you now that your diet has changed, especially if you're not doing strength training (and actually putting that protein to good use). It might be worth trying to cut down on it. Make sure you're drinking enough water, too.

3. A quick search on keto and kidney pain turns up some comments from people that too much starch aggravates their kidney issues. It might be worth revisiting the source of your carbs and try keeping them to non-starchy sources and maybe dropping them a little more.

4. Kidney pain also has other sources, such as kidney stones. These are often build ups of minerals (most often, calcium). They're painful, but for the most part, can be passed with no long term damage. Just make sure to drink plenty of water. ( http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/kidney-stones/DS00282/DSECTION=causes ) Also, see if you're taking in too much calcium. One of the biggest fears people (especially women) have when going Paleo is the amount of calcium in the diet due to the reduction or elimination of dairy products. Dr. Cordain has mentioned in some of his books that calcium intake isn't as important as calcium absorption and the balance between calcium and potassium, and the Paleo diet removes a lot of the compounds that inhibit calcium absorption, and can increase consumption of potassium. So, it might be worth, again, looking at what you're eating (and supplements) and seeing whether you're eating too much calcium.

5. Are you absolutely sure it's kidney pain? One thing I learned recently is that there's a supporting muscle that runs from the spine, through the pelvic bone, and to the inner thigh. In Yoga at least, it's known as the Psoas muscle and is also the top part of the hip flexors. Mine's injured right now, and lifting anything of enough weight to engage that area is something that aggravates it. The pain, for me, goes deeper than the typical back muscle pain, and isn't helped by the typical muscle pain relief methods, so it's still sometimes difficult for me to believe that it's muscle pain, despite diagnosis from my GP and confirmation from a physical therapist.

redheadmommy

thanks for your thoughts! I really do not think my protein level is high. I dropped my protein a few months ago. I used to eat 125-135g or more prior to baby #2 to support strength training. Now I target 115 g, but based on MFP report, it really fluctuate around 100g , which is far from being high for a nursing women in my size.
Ketogenic paleo lifestyle by default have very little starch, so that can not be a problem. In my case, it is 20-25 g starch per day.
It could be stones , but maybe that would be sharp pain instead of dull pain. I do not know. In any case I do not take any supplements whatsoever. My calcium intake only comes from my diet and very low only 25-35% of DRI because of the minimal or no dairy at the moment . If it is kidney stones, it comes down to my paleo/primal diet

My initial thought was back pain too, but usually muscle pain/back pain is aggravated with lifting or moving or turning or in certain position. My pain doesn't change with movement. My drs appointment is tomorrow, so I will only know for sure what it is after that or probably after she runs some tests. I love my Dr, because she really cares and I am not dropping her even if she disagrees with my lifestyle. I am just not sure if I should hide my diet from her or should come clean and admit it. Or maybe I should wait until she runs some test and knows what it is. I am just frustrated because the whole point of paleo/primal is to improve health and not to deteriorate it.

melba_321

I haven't done Whole30, and I think I fluctuate with keto...my carbs can go as low as 25g or as high up as 100g (I weigh in at 116, and usually I don't go further than 20% carbs, except for the every now and then binge). My first thoughts are fat levels. I go through endometriosis and it's painful flare-ups. When my fat intake is higher than 50%, it helps a great deal and lessens my pain. Maybe try to increase your coconut oil, coconut milk, olives (black & green) and avocados? If you are still breastfeeding, I'd definitely get my fat intake higher...but it looks like your fat intake is very good. Evening Primrose Oil may also be helpful for you.

Another thought is the type of fats used in cooking. I use to use cold press EVOO and EV coconut oil for cooking, but a wee bit more of EVOO. Once I read somewhere how even such a good oil as EVOO reaches a certain heat, the good quality goes down hill and rancid, I switched to all EV coconut oil for cooking and use EVOO only at room temp. --My inflammation went down by nearly 50% after doing that switch. As I've added in butter (from grass fed cows) along with EV coconut oil, I still have the same experience of lower inflammation...but if I start cooking with EVOO again, inflammation does go back up.

With carbs, are you getting any of these from wheat, soy or corn? I rarely do eat grains, but if I choose any of these 3, I will get more flare-ups and especially in my spine...and my arthritis will actually bother me, when usually, without these grains I don't even notice my arthritis. When I do eat grains, I stick with quinoa, millet, amaranth and rice...and sometimes steel cut gluten free oats.

Protein sources can also be questionable. For the most part, it looks like you choose very good ones. Be careful especially with beef. If you don't know where it came from (other than the store), it most likely has added hormones, antibiotics and/or steroids. I seriously cannot eat store bought beef. I will go through major flare-ups.

Personally, I would definitely still go to the scheduled appointment with your doctor. Maybe get some bloodwork done. --I definitely would. When you believe it's a kidney issue, I see it as an important measure to take. I just wouldn't use the words paleo, primal or keto, so you don't go through the ignorant attacks. --Just give an idea of the foods you eat, by listing them and maybe the estimate of percentages of your fat, carbs and protein. Also make note of when you feel these pains the most.

I'd use your current doctor, so you can get on a path of finding out what this is, while also searching for a more holistic type doctor or at least an open minded doctor who will work with holistic and natural medicine for your future visits. Especially with being a mom to young children and the energy required, it's very important for you to be in good health, since you are depended on so greatly. I hope all goes well and it's not kidneys...if it is, or whatever it may be, I hope you find fast relief and the right remedy.

With seeing you are usually low on calcium, I'd most definitely try to get more calcium sources in too. With primal diet, you can at least eat cheeses, yogurt and cottage cheese. If you are uncomfortable with that, maybe add in more leafy greens, fish with bones, bone marrow, bone broth, etc... Breastfeeding will deplete your calcium and even bone mass. I lost enamel strength to my teeth and some bone mass with breastfeeding, and I had high calcium intake.

homesweeths

I'm told you have to be sure to drink a fair amount of water on keto. If I start to get that backache feeling, usually I look at my log and realize my water is way down and I've been satisfying my thirst with too much tea (a diuretic).

Here is a home cure for kidney pain that has worked well for my dh: Every hour, drink a glass of distilled water and take a vitamin C pill. He has a history of kidney stones, including two ER visits and being off work for several days each time. Now, when he starts to get that sick feeling with achy back, he starts the distilled water/vit C and is right as rain within a few hours. I don't know if it dissolves stones or what, but he hasn't had a serious attack in several years since he started doing this.

Prevention: Drink lots of water! And cut down on cheese and almonds, too.

Dragonwolf

My calcium intake only comes from my diet and very low only 25-35% of DRI because of the minimal or no dairy at the moment . If it is kidney stones, it comes down to my paleo/primal diet

On the USDA/SAD diets, calcium absorption is pitiful. You actually don't need as much calcium as we're taught we need. What we need, rather, is the ability to absorb it (which comes from eating more fat to support absorption of Vitamins D and K, which aid calcium absorption, and avoid whole grains and legumes, which inhibit absorption). Dairy actually sucks when it comes to bioavailable calcium, and it doesn't matter how much you consume if most of it is leaving your system, too.

http://www.whole9life.com/2012/02/what-about-calcium/
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55357860/The-Dietary-Cure-for-Acne-Loren-Cordain (pg 85-87 or so)

I am just not sure if I should hide my diet from her or should come clean and admit it.

And that is exactly why you should start looking for a new doctor. Keep your current appointment, but you should be able to work with your doctor, and be able to trust them enough that you shouldn't even have that concern. You shouldn't have to "admit" anything that you're not doing wrong to begin with. As it stands, you fear that she'll blame your diet off hand and not run other tests. That demonstrates a pretty severe lack of trust.

ShannonKirton

I had a kidney infection a few months ago while I was keto. Personally I think it was simply a coincidence. When I went to my local emergency clinic (as I had pain by my appendix versus my back) I mentioned my diet changes to the doctor once we discovered that it was a kidney infection and not appendicitis. He said that it was likely not related. I totally agree with him.

The reason he gave was that it was possibly a UTI that had skipped the initial infection and just graduated directly to a kidney infection.

So personally I do not think that going keto had anything to do with it and even after I did my research just for curiosity's sake, it still was not convincing that ketogenic eating was to blame. Since then I have come out of keto to try and alleviate some cycle issues which I am still working on but I have been fine ever since. If I feel a twinge in my side, I have a glass of strong lemonade which makes me feel much better. Might not be paleo (with the sugar) but my hubby makes it with organic brown sugar so one glass won't be the end of the world. Citrus is great for flushing your system. Personally cranberry juice tastes awful and does nothing for me.

redheadmommy

Well, it turned out I have a kidney infection. By the time I got to the Dr my pain was excruciating and I started to have very high fever too. I have been really sick in the past few days and I ended up staying a night at the hospital as well. I got antibiotics and I am getting better, but I just so didn't needed this right now. The day in the hospital screw over my whole 30, but I think that is the least of my problems now.

ShannonKirton:
Wow, this is exactly what they told me. She asked me about experiencing a UTI prior to the whole thing , but I didn't have . They didn't know why the infection directly went for my kidneys as usually it starts with UTI and gradually spread to bladder first and spread to kidneys later if it left untreated.
I convinced myself that it must have been just a stage coincidence until I read your answer just now . It is kind of a suspicious coincidence...
My dr didn't say the problem arisen because of the keto, but asked me a few questions that made me realized this maybe is not the road for me. I am not losing more weight in deep keto than before and I really miss my fruits. I think I am going to increase my carbs a bit and try not to be so obsessed about my macros. Now I go and eat a banana and won't be feel guilty about it, and I will cook sweet potato for dinner.

ShannonKirton

Well, it turned out I have a kidney infection. By the time I got to the Dr my pain was excruciating and I started to have very high fever too. I have been really sick in the past few days and I ended up staying a night at the hospital as well. I got antibiotics and I am getting better, but I just so didn't needed this right now. The day in the hospital screw over my whole 30, but I think that is the least of my problems now.

ShannonKirton:
Wow, this is exactly what they told me. She asked me about experiencing a UTI prior to the whole thing , but I didn't have . They didn't know why the infection directly went for my kidneys as usually it starts with UTI and gradually spread to bladder first and spread to kidneys later if it left untreated.
I convinced myself that it must have been just a stage coincidence until I read your answer just now . It is kind of a suspicious coincidence...
My dr didn't say the problem arisen because of the keto, but asked me a few questions that made me realized this maybe is not the road for me. I am not losing more weight in deep keto than before and I really miss my fruits. I think I am going to increase my carbs a bit and try not to be so obsessed about my macros. Now I go and eat a banana and won't be feel guilty about it, and I will cook sweet potato for dinner.

Sorry to hear you had to be hospitalized but I'm glad that you're on the road to recovery again. I find actually that coming out of keto and going a bit higher in the carbs has made me feel better and being on the Whole30 has definitely helped me to lean out a bit more, so I'm not against sticking with slightly higher carbs for now and seeing where it will take me.

Keep on mending!!