Carb levels for runner

NitaCB

Hi, I've just joined the group. I've been eating Paleo or Primal off and on for about 6 months in total I guess. I started early this year then dropped it as I started marathon training and I found it hard to keep up with enough food that I could grab easily enough when I needed it. I also have Hashimotos, an autoimmune form of hypothyroidism which is why I gained wight in the first place.

Straight after I did my marathon I dropped gluten again and slowly got back to eating Primal. I lost about 4 kgs, which is totally remarkable for me as nothing seemed to help me lose any weight until then. Now though I've slowly put most of it back on and I can't figure out why! I was running less then, but still plenty of time on the bike, plus 3 weights workouts per week. I recently tried 10 days ketogenic, that didn't make any difference, I was just hungry and couldn't get in ketosis.

I don't feel any different whether I have dairy in my diet or not, so I have kept it in. Nor do I actually feel any different if I slip up and have some gluten or legumes.

I've been looking back at my food diary over the period when I was losing successfully and one big difference is I was eating a lot more carbs. But I thought its generally better to have less? Some days over 200g, which at the moment seems huge I me. I was also eating rice with either lunch or dinner, and rice flakes in a protein pancake for breakfast. Does anyone else find they do better with a higher carb intake? I'm marathon training again, but not huge mileage yet as I'm getting back not it. Would you be trying to eat wha I did when I was losing? Even if it's not as strict Primal/Paleo and much higher carb than what most Paleo research says?

joybedford

I am quite new to paleo but I do run. I don't eat rice etc but i eat lots of sweet potatoes, squash and fruit. The first time i ran after converting to paleo I felt very dizzy but I have adapted. I still eat quite high carb but this works for me. My diary is open if you want to take a look. I am not running to marathon distance but have done half marathons but not while paleo I am currently training for a half marathon hopefully this will workout.

Golightly17

I run and have hypothyroid. I do around 3-5 miles up to 5 days a week but it's primarily HIIT versus marathon style. I personally am grain free and stay under 30 g carbs per day. I feel good this way and being fat adapted has helped my athletic performance.

I think that you should do what you feel best at and will help you to attain your goals. You did state that you lost weight after dropping the gluten and have Hashimotos. I would suggest dropping the wheat, you may have an allergy that you are not aware of (especially common in those of us with thyroid issues).

Dragonwolf

Paleo doesn't have to be low carb, so don't worry too much about that. If higher carb works for you, go for it. Fruit is great for "grab and go" type of carbs, and even squash and potatoes can be "grab and go" when cooked right (french fries, anyone?). Primal recommends low carbs generally, because its target audience usually start out obese, and therefore with metabolic syndrome (for which low carb is generally the best solution), and probably pretty sedentary. That said, marathon runners don't need to have a lot of carbs, either (check out Timothy Olsen, a low-carb ultra marathon runner - http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/7302/642-ultramarathon-runner-timothy-olson-thrives-on-a-low-carb-diet/ ).

When did you try ketosis? Finding a 10 day span in six months is a little difficult, but it appears that it may have been at the end of October, beginning of November. Is this right? If it is, then one of the reasons you may not have gotten into ketosis is because your carbs were too high. Some people can get into ketosis with as high of levels as 100g, while others need more like 20g. To really do keto and actually get into ketosis, you have to do it for long enough to reduce your carbs to the point that you get into ketosis. Once you reach that point, you should fall into it within a couple of days, but you need to reduce your carbs to the point that your body has to make ketones.

Additionally, the days that you were lowest in carbs also had a significant deficit - 200 to as high as 850+ calories. No wonder you were hungry. And dropping carbs will often result in feeling hungry for a while, because your body is craving carbs and doesn't feel satisfied with the new level that you're giving it. Once the body adapts (usually within one to two weeks, when fed adequately, depending on how much you've dropped your carbs), the hunger should go away. What a lot of guides recommend is that you eat whenever you're hungry during the transition period, regardless of calories, as long as you keep your carbs limited to your goal amount.

A note about the gluten thing - not everyone has GI issues that manifest immediately upon eating something with gluten in it. For example, my reaction is eczema, and it's on a somewhat delayed response (I have to be eating some for a couple of days to cause a new reaction, though it does seem to prolong any remaining/old reaction's healing time). Just something to keep in mind.

NitaCB

I don't really know if it does work for me, but from looking back at when I was dropping weight that's the biggest difference.

I know runners don't have to have a lot of carbs, I've looked into it quite a bit. I read 'The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance' and that was at the start of my ketogenic trial. I felt stuck on foods to eat to actually fill me up, or get enough food in. I found it really hard sticking under 50g, and that didn't get me into ketosis. I had ketostix and it only ever showed up very minimally. I didn't like avoiding fruits or certain vegetables, I found it unsustainable. I don't know how someone does when they're highly active. I never got to a point where I wasn't hungry.

I don't think I've gotten to a point where I'm fat adapted, which I find frustrating. I really like eating Paleo (with dairy) but when my activity levels really go up I find it challenging. Like today I hadn't had a proper post run meal in (85 min run) and even shortly after my lunch I was starving. By the time my shift at work finished at 4.30 I was feeling drained and lethargic from hunger. There was some of a leftover cooked rice meal in the fridge, thankfully, which saved me when I got home. It's times like that, or if I've had to rush off to my other work without lunch that it's better to eat sushi or something, than starve.

Any suggestions?

NitaCB

Most of the time I manage alright, but I find it really hard to not have a little bit of something which has gluten in it, as I don't notice any reactions. But of course I get all annoyed at myself for slipping up. It would be much easier to avoid it completely if I felt a strong response to it.

Dragonwolf

I don't really know if it does work for me, but from looking back at when I was dropping weight that's the biggest difference.

I know runners don't have to have a lot of carbs, I've looked into it quite a bit. I read 'The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance' and that was at the start of my ketogenic trial. I felt stuck on foods to eat to actually fill me up, or get enough food in. I found it really hard sticking under 50g, and that didn't get me into ketosis. I had ketostix and it only ever showed up very minimally. I didn't like avoiding fruits or certain vegetables, I found it unsustainable. I don't know how someone does when they're highly active. I never got to a point where I wasn't hungry.

I don't think I've gotten to a point where I'm fat adapted, which I find frustrating. I really like eating Paleo (with dairy) but when my activity levels really go up I find it challenging. Like today I hadn't had a proper post run meal in (85 min run) and even shortly after my lunch I was starving. By the time my shift at work finished at 4.30 I was feeling drained and lethargic from hunger. There was some of a leftover cooked rice meal in the fridge, thankfully, which saved me when I got home. It's times like that, or if I've had to rush off to my other work without lunch that it's better to eat sushi or something, than starve.

Any suggestions?

For fruit, stick to the low sugar stuff, like berries and avocado (yeah, it's a fruit), that will get you the benefits of fruit without all the sugar that things like citrus and banana have. Keep in mind, too, that dairy often has quite a bit of sugar in it, and you can probably get your sugar down by cutting that out (I know, it sucks; I enjoy dairy, too). That said, being omnivores allows us to do without things like fruit even for extended periods of time (keep in mind that even in places where local fruit is abundant, it's still often seasonal, and some places don't see fruit for months on end; this whole thing of a huge variety of fruits available year-round is new to the point of being within the last 70 years or so). Most of the vitamins and minerals that are in fruits can be obtained through vegetables and animals.

As for hunger, like I said before, the dates that I found that appear to be your attempt at keto also showed a significant deficit. The biggest reason you were hungry was because you simply weren't eating enough. When you're trying to track your macros in a keto manner, it often helps to go into the advanced settings for MFP and set the macros accordingly, that way you know how much of what macros you need to obtain. Set your carbs to the percentage that gets the closest to your goal number of grams, set protein to the percentage that gets the closest to about 1g/lb of lean body mass, and fat takes up the rest.

I think one of the biggest hurdles to the lower levels of carbs, especially keto, is shifting your mental state about what foods are "good" and when they should be eaten. Eat the fat from that grass-fed steak or roast. Eat the steak for breakfast. Slather stuff in butter, bacon grease, coconut oil, or lard. That kind of thing.

There's a slight difference between being in ketosis and being fat adapted. Ketosis is the state when your body starts making ketones, while being fat adapted is the point when your brain and hunger signals accept that they're not going to get much in the way of dietary glucose. The former only takes a couple of days, while the latter can take up to two weeks, depending on the level and abruptness of your transition to the lower carb levels. The Whole 30 Timeline helps illustrate the process most people go through when dropping their carbs in general - http://www.whole9life.com/2013/08/revised-timeline/

TriLifter

I agree with the above--Primal/Paleo is only low carb if you want/need it to be.

I ran a marathon a couple of months back while in ketosis. I've since lessened my running and am lifting heavy and bulking. I'm carb-cycling right now, so low fat/high carb on lifting days nad high fat/low carb on non-lifting days.

Golightly17

A thought on gluten- sometimes we crave things we are allergic to, almost a high glycemic effect. Just a thought.

Below are some resources that I have found helpful in relation to diet and training:

http://www.dietdoctor.com/category/exercise
http://eatingacademy.com/category/sports-and-nutrition
http://marksdailyapple.com