Balancing intake and macros - endurance & strength training

Rayman79

OK here is an area I have fallen into, and have to admit not having a great handle on how best to balance things at the moment.

I'll give a bit of detail below - but to save you reading on unnecessarily here's the synopsis: Balancing road bike riding with weight training, figuring out total cal intake (is meal timing more important now?), my body responds to low/moderate carb to lose fat but this is not optimal for endurance work.

So on to the detail...

As many of you know, I have been resistance training for a while now and am probably hovering close to the intermediate level in most lifts. Things had been going along reasonably well until a friend of mine finally convinced me to give cycling a go, and unexpectedly I quite enjoy it *(enough to sign up for a 100 mile ride in about 6 weeks time).

Diet:
My issue comes in balancing the macro needs and calorie intake for what are not really complementary goals/exercises. My short term goal is to get through this 100 mile ride, and I dare say there will be more events to come. My overall goals are more aligned to improved body composition, strength and better aesthetics

I have been really hungry with the extra training too, having not done a lot of cardio for a while I get ravenously hungry, and always craving carbs (d'uh, obvious I know). My best success in fat loss to this point has been when I keep my CHO at around 100-150g per day but there is no way this is sustainable for endurance training.

Is this a situation where meal timing starts to take on more importance or is it still negligible? Should I stick to my normal diet but just increase my CHO intra and post workout, or is this unnecessary micro-management?


Training:
How do I get enough time on the bike to allow me to ride these sort of distances and still hit the gym with enough intensity - and not blow my legs into oblivion.

In the short term I have cut back on my leg work, only doing SLDL and Squats 1 x week each until the big ride. The volume of 3x week was getting too much when I'm also averaging 100 - 150kms per week as a beginner cyclist.

I have a schedule I have worked up which has 3 days riding and 3 days weight training (with my rest day after my biggest ride of the week). The weight training still follows the standard program I've been using for a while now (icecream fitness beginner program), but with less leg volume for the time being. I'll probably work back up to 2-3 leg sessions per week once my body gets used to the volume.


The bottom line is I'm enjoying the riding, it's a good social activity, buys me a bit of time out of the house and is a good challenge. Unfortunately it does seem a little incongruent with my overall goals of body recomposition, strength and better aesthetics. For the sake of performance I'm happy to put the fat loss on hold and focus on making sure my body has enough energy for both tasks in the short term, I think this might be the best option for the next couple of months while my body gets used to the increase in volume.

Has anyone juggled these things before? Most cyclists I've spoken to or the research I have done has people squarely in one camp or the other, and most cyclists still don't see the benefit of a barbell. :huh: .

Sorry for the long winded post, and I know there's a fair chance I'm asking this question in a group that'll likely tell me to get off the stupid bike and focus on lifting :laugh: , but hey - don't ask, don't get.

Thanks.

SideSteel

Before going further into this:

You mention your ideal range of carb intake has been 100 - 150g for fat loss. Is this BEFORE you started adding in lots of cycling?

I would have to assume that as your activity levels increase significantly, you should be able to bring carbs upwards and still lose fat provided you're balancing that out properly.

Aside: I think nutrient timing is important for performance reasons so in that regard I'd say yes, it absolutely matters. Since most of the research shows that there isn't an optimal nutrient timing for fat loss, people then twist that into "nutrient timing is irrelevant" which is a reductionist statement that is basically false.

Rayman79

Thanks SS.

Yes the CHO intake was based on a caloric deficit (usually hovering around or just under 2000cal/day) and only strength training. To be honest I've eaten like a mofo since Ive started riding, In this time I have been pretty slack with my nutrition, and have pushed the intake up to an average of around 2700 and have just started to notice a slight increase in weight.

I think cutting back on the crap and aiming for around 2500 might be the sweet spot, the appetite has settled back down now that my body is adjusting. I've only been riding for around 6 weeks now.

As for my activity levels, I'm riding about 80kms total during the week (commuting to & from work twice a week) and one long ride on Sunday, at the moment that's about 80-90kms. Conservatively, I'd say this is about 6hrs total riding time, and at least 3000 cals over RMR.

SideSteel

I'd really just suggest that you track intake accurately, consider reducing slightly from 2700 and monitor change in weight and performance and adjust from there. Chances are quite high that you'll be losing fat on more than 150g CHO considering your activity.

I don't think it's realistic to keep that number (100-150) in your head as "where you need to be" to drop fat now that your activity is cranked up.

Regarding programming, may want to chop some volume as well. If I recall correctly Jason's program is on the high-ish end for volume. Consider 3x5 instead of 5x5 just during the heavy biking periods.

You might also want to see if you can squat 2/week with reduced volume. Might not be possible but it's something to play around with.

I think you have the right idea re intra/post carb intake. You're just generally going to have to be more mindful of nutrient timing for recovery/performance purposes.

What is your schedule as far as lifting/cycling? Specifically as in which days/times do you do which activities?

Rayman79

I can only workout at night (after dinner) so my schedule is a little limited. Juggling work and two young kids doesn't give you a lot of play time... as you know!

The plan is to hit the gym Monday & Wednesday night, and during the day on Saturday most weeks.
I commute to and from work on Tuesdays and Fridays (40km/25mile round trip each day) and have a long ride on Sunday mornings starting at 6:30am.

You're right that Jason's program is close to full body 3x week, just hitting the muscles differently between workout A and B. It seems manageable when I reduce the volume of squats & DLs but I'm definitely open to alternatives re programming.

DopeItUp

SS is giving you great advice, especially RE: intake so I'm not gonna touch that. I just wanted to relay a little of my experience.

For starters, making cardio gains, strength gains AND losing weight all at the same time is going to be VERY difficult. Or at least slow. I have been in the same boat. I have found two angles of approach that have worked decently well.

If you're going to do all three things at the same time, work with a MINIMAL deficit. As minimal as possible while still losing weight. The last year or so I have only averaged .4lbs/week lost. That's excruciating, because it means only about 20lbs lost for the entire year. It's still 20lbs but it can be hard to go that slow!

If you really want to make good progress, you have to sorta focus on one thing at a time. If you want to get stronger as a priority, you have to dial back on the fat loss and on the cardio. If you want to really focus on fat loss, you have to dial back on both workout volumes. If you really want to work on your cardio, your deficit and strength training has to scale back a bit. You get the idea. I have shifted around several times in the past two years or so. All I can tell you is that it's a balancing act. And balancing all three at the same time is nearly impossible. At least, for me it is.

Just some anecdotal thoughts.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging

EvgeniZyntx

There are few world class level riders that do not see the benefit of weight training. However, it also becomes a question of type of exercise and recovery.

Extra mass on a cycle is always considered a trade off from cycling performance so cyclists see weight training as a means to go to power and endurance. Historically it was a larger part of winter training, see here, and has evolved a bit:

http://spokepost.com/news/?articleID=12&catViewAll=4
http://ashwinearl.blogspot.fr/2005_10_01_archive.html

If cycling performance is a priority consider something like the Morris Plan with periodized training and non-hypertrophy work (lower weight, higher speed to develop total power and endurance).

sijomial

I did the same thing this year - juggling fat loss/recomp, strength training and my first century ride in June.
Here's my experience in case it helps....

It is a compromise so you have to accept that although all elements (fat loss, strength gain, endurance/speed improvements) can be done together none of them are going to be optimal.

I trained by alternating 3 cardio sessions (mix of cycling, rowing and elliptical) and 3 upper body strength sessions a week, hardly any leg strength exercises at all to allow recovery and keep my legs fresh. Still saw increases in leg power and quad measurements though.

Very small calorie deficit (only lost 4lbs from Jan to June).
Had the same minimum protein and fat goals whether on cardio or strength days and followed the MFP method of eating back exercise calories. Leads to a bit of a carb frenzy on the day of long rides.

BTW - there is a world of difference in "just" achieving the completion of a century ride and being a fast or elite cyclist. So my particular compromise is that I'm happy being a brisk cyclist who apparently has the aerodynamics of a brick out-house.

Chieflrg

I did the juggling act this summer.

I had to tame down my running to just over 100 miles a month from my 160-170mi, while lifting heavy 3 times a week, with some 10-15mi cycling days, along with a 500 deficit. I also suffer from a autoimmune disease that attack my joints causing them to swell and pain is always 24/7. So its quite the juggling act to keep my body mobile.

It was a drain on me for sure when I dropped my carbs for a few weeks. When I upped them back to 35% from 27% I think it made a huge difference.

The trick was for me to do my lifting in the morning and my running/cycling in the afternoon/night. It gave me enough strength gains and allowed me to work up my miles without totally draining my energy.

Then I listened to my body as well as document my energy level as well as gains with the lifting. I made adjustments from there.

I'm currently just low bulk. Running 6 days a week instead of 7. No biking as the snow has slowed that to a stand still. Still seeing the gains in the weight room, although my tendons are flared up from the disease so I had to curve some of my exercises do to the pain of the joints.

Its definitely doable although, not for everybody.

jacksonpt

You and I have VERY similar goals. I'm not as knowledgeable as SS, so I don't want to clutter up this thread with a bunch of "this is what's worked for me" crap, so I'll keep it short. Feel free to ask questions if you want more info.

Regarding macros...
Regardless of the type of workout (lifting, biking, or running), they are ALL better when my macros are pretty evenly balanced. I'm not hardcore enough about it to have things really figured out, but a good day ending with a pint of ice cream ALWAYS yields a great workout the next day. I don't know if it's the fats or carbs or both, but whenever my macros get too far out of balance I seem to struggle with intensity, endurance or both.

Calorie intake...
Assuming we're talking about somewhat normal numbers, the more the better for me, but again, the day before. With the exception of caffeine, nothing helps me before/during a workout like the calories I ate the day prior. I eat more or less at maintenance during race season, and bulk/cut during the off season for body comp. Sounds like you know about where you need to eat when you're lifting, but you need to figure out a new calorie intake goal given the increase in cardio.

Training...
I lift through the race season, but I cut way back on leg volume, generally to only once a week depending on my race schedule. I keep up with my upper body work, but more to keep from losing strength than to advance my lifts. There's no reason you can't lift multiple days per week and ride multiple days per week (assuming adequate cals and sleep), but you might have to dial back your leg work some.

As for cycling, lifting, and body comp "competing"...
Again IME... they don't compete on the dietary side. Regardless of how you're training, you need your macros, and you need plenty of them. Keep total cals in check, but get your macros. Obviously when it comes to end results, they can indeed compete. Cycling counteracts strength training FAR less than does running, but they are still competing goals, which you know. Even so, the average person will benefit from body comp goals as it usually translates well to strength to weight ratios which will help on the bike.

Hope that helps.... it seemed a lot clearer in my head than it does as I reread this post, lol.

.

Rayman79

Thanks everyone, some good stuff in there. If nothing else, its good to know others have been where I am and found something that worked for them.

I'm certainly finding some common themes in what you guys have experienced, and I think in the short term cutting back on leg volume is the right call.

As for nutrition, I think I'll try cycling my calories a bit. Sticking to around 2000-2100 on lifting/rest days, and upping the cals on ride days (and probably Saturday night before my long ride on Sunday). I'll keep the P & F consistent throughout the week, but just vary the CHO intake (primarily) based on the amount of riding - sound sensible enough?

I'll monitor my weight but I really don't want to lose too much. My short term goal needs to be around increasing my endurance and performance so I need adequate fuel... add to that the Christmas holiday food and its a good enough justification to eat a decent amount!

Thanks guys!

chrisdavey

I think the question has been answered very well so #in4rayinlycrapics

Rayman79

I think the question has been answered very well so #in4rayinlycrapics

Careful what you wish for bud!