Is it possible to do Paleo without high-protein consumption?

shuki_cotren

I did some research today about high-protein diets. I have been doing paleo off and on since August, and am doing a serious Whole 30 right now. My research, at first, was relieving. What I read said that if your kidney is normal, and you eat mostly lean meats, high-protein is fine. One person that was quoted basically said there's nothing wrong with eating high-protein, it's just an expensive way of eating and most of the protein is wasted because your body doesn't need that much.

Then, I looked into some other articles claiming that high-protein diets were linked with a bunch of health issues:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets

This makes me want to look at my Whole30 in a completely different way. I'm not sure if this is possible, but maybe I'll try to eat the recommended amount of protein for a person of my gender and weight. I'll eat plenty of fruits and veggies as I am doing now, and see if I can make it to a good calorie range of at least 1200-1500 eating this way.

I already don't eat processed meats (sausage, bacon, deli meats, canned soups with meat, frozen meats with meat, hot dogs, etc), but now maybe I need to eat less red meats and more poultry & fish?

I don't know, what do you all think?

lrmall01

Paleo doesn't really mean high protein. Paleo is more about eating real food. Going by your profile, you should eat around 100 to 150 g of protein (more if you lift weights, less if you don't).

Is that in-line with what you are planning or do you think 150g protein is too high?

If you need ideas of meals to help you hit those levels, then there are plenty on the forum.

Hope this helps.

shuki_cotren

Eating too much protein seems like wasted money to me. I'm hoping I can still do my whole 30 and consume the recommended amounts of protein instead of extra protein that my body doesn't need and just gets wasted.

I was looking at this source:
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein

It says that adult women need 46g of protein and lactating women need 71g.

This website says the same.
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html

This website says that "high-protein" is over 60g if you are eating 1200 calories/day, or over 100g if you are eating 2000 calories a day.
http://forums.webmd.com/3/food-and-cooking-exchange/tip/13

This website is for low-carb"ers and says
" the standard minimum amount of daily protein recommended is .37 gram per pound of body weight (or .8 grams per kilogram of body weight). However this is a minimum - it has been shown that up to 1.2 grams of protein per kg of body weight could be even better for health, and up to 1.8 grams for athletes. "
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/library/blproteincalculators.htm

For me, that would be between 46-137g of protein, but I'm not an athlete and I hardly exercise (I'm trying to work on that).. so really 46-92 grams would be best for me I think.

shuki_cotren

Paleo doesn't really mean high protein. Paleo is more about eating real food. Going by your profile, you should eat around 100 to 150 g of protein (more if you lift weights, less if you don't).

Is that in-line with what you are planning or do you think 150g protein is too high?

If you need ideas of meals to help you hit those levels, then there are plenty on the forum.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, that does help. I'm going to try to stay paleo without over-consuming meat.

Dragonwolf

Eating too much protein seems like wasted money to me. I'm hoping I can still do my whole 30 and consume the recommended amounts of protein instead of extra protein that my body doesn't need and just gets wasted.

I was looking at this source:
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein

It says that adult women need 46g of protein and lactating women need 71g.

This website says the same.
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html

This website says that "high-protein" is over 60g if you are eating 1200 calories/day, or over 100g if you are eating 2000 calories a day.
http://forums.webmd.com/3/food-and-cooking-exchange/tip/13

This website is for low-carb"ers and says
" the standard minimum amount of daily protein recommended is .37 gram per pound of body weight (or .8 grams per kilogram of body weight). However this is a minimum - it has been shown that up to 1.2 grams of protein per kg of body weight could be even better for health, and up to 1.8 grams for athletes. "
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/library/blproteincalculators.htm

For me, that would be between 46-137g of protein, but I'm not an athlete and I hardly exercise (I'm trying to work on that).. so really 46-92 grams would be best for me I think.

The .8g/kg number is the bare minimum and assumes that you're sedentary and basically maintaining weight. If you're actively trying to lose weight, and exercising at all, you should be eating more. This is especially true if you're doing endurance cardio, which is known to be catabolic (muscle-eating). Calorie restriction prompts the body to get fuel wherever it can. Inevitably (especially with large deficits), this is going to be some amount of protein (because protein actually takes less energy to convert to usable fuel than fat). The body has to get that protein from somewhere, and ideally, you don't want it to be coming from your muscles.

Mark Sisson has a pretty good breakdown of who should eat how much and why (though his numbers use bodyweight, which I don't personally agree with; in my experience, the .5-1g/lb of lean body mass formula works better, since it's your muscles that need the protein, not the fat, but whatever). He also provides some samples of what protein sources his days consist of, to illustrate how little it actually takes to get about 100g of protein.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-much-protein-should-you-be-eating

On a side note - is it the protein amount you're concerned with, or the fact that Paleo's only significant source is from animals?

Akimajuktuq

Depending what you mean by "high protein" it can actually be BAD for health, that's why our ancestors favoured the fattiest meats available.

Personally, I do not adhere to the 0.8-1g per pound of body weight advice, but it may be applicable to people with a demanding work out routine and who are trying to build muscle. But, if you look at my diary, my diet IS meat based but I don't eat a lot of it. Funny how that works.

To answer the question: YES, absolutely, easy! I eat a high FAT diet and it's been awesome for my health, weight loss and I even save money because, while my individual food items are more expensive, I eat so much less and am properly nourished. It's awesome.

Please do more research though because meats are NOT unhealthy, and especially grassfed meats. Grassfed beef (eat the fat!) is one of the best sources of omega 3 (unless you eat seals like some people do where I live!). It really bothers me to see people that recognize the merits of Primal/Paleo still believing that eating animals (or red meat) is something to avoid. Avoid CAFO meat of course, but search for other options and support your local ethical farmers.

Dragonwolf

Depending what you mean by "high protein" it can actually be BAD for health, that's why our ancestors favoured the fattiest meats available.

Personally, I do not adhere to the 0.8-1g per pound of body weight advice, but it may be applicable to people with a demanding work out routine and who are trying to build muscle. But, if you look at my diary, my diet IS meat based but I don't eat a lot of it. Funny how that works.

She seems to be under the impression that 60g or more for women is "high" protein. I certainly agree that too much protein, particularly without much in the way of fat or carbs, is unhealthy, but the liver, when healthy, can handle something like 250g or more of protein, with few carbs or fat, before it has issues. That's not to say that I think everyone should eat that much, but it's also a far cry from the 60g her links suggest as "too much protein."

And, to be fair, most of the numbers that use .8-1g per pound is per pound of lean body mass, not total body weight. Personally, I'm of the opinion that basing it off of LBM is better, because it's the muscle that needs the protein, not the fat, so it'd be closer to what the body actually needs, especially for people who still have a high body fat percentage.

Akimajuktuq

Depending what you mean by "high protein" it can actually be BAD for health, that's why our ancestors favoured the fattiest meats available.

Personally, I do not adhere to the 0.8-1g per pound of body weight advice, but it may be applicable to people with a demanding work out routine and who are trying to build muscle. But, if you look at my diary, my diet IS meat based but I don't eat a lot of it. Funny how that works.

She seems to be under the impression that 60g or more for women is "high" protein. I certainly agree that too much protein, particularly without much in the way of fat or carbs, is unhealthy, but the liver, when healthy, can handle something like 250g or more of protein, with few carbs or fat, before it has issues. That's not to say that I think everyone should eat that much, but it's also a far cry from the 60g her links suggest as "too much protein."

And, to be fair, most of the numbers that use .8-1g per pound is per pound of lean body mass, not total body weight. Personally, I'm of the opinion that basing it off of LBM is better, because it's the muscle that needs the protein, not the fat, so it'd be closer to what the body actually needs, especially for people who still have a high body fat percentage.

Wow, 60 grams, yeah not "high protein" for sure. I'm at about 80 grams and I find that pretty adequate. Absolutely, it would be very hard to eat enough protein to cause health problems, but I do see people doing it, even here at MFP. I've seen some diaries where people are avoiding carbs AND fat and the resulting protein level is frightening indeed. It's interesting to me that people assume that Paleo is high protein because it's the one macro goal that I often have a challenge reaching, but of course my Paleo lifestyle is modified from most.

I'm really not sure what my LBM is but I'm currently 164 and getting 80grams, give or take. When people fire off the 1 gram per pound they are not always specific about it. However, I do enter it by percentage. I'm also learning to listen to my body and eat things when I legitimately crave them and not just when it's sweet or habit. Lately, it's been oysters and I don't even like them.

I wouldn't consider a little extra protein a "waste" and I would never avoid healthy meats for any reason. However, if one did start eating a heck of a lot of chicken breasts and avoided fat, I just can't get behind that.

shuki_cotren

Thanks for all of the responses! Those websites I looked at to find out what high-protein really is were soooo confusing!

I changed my macros to 25% carbs, 25% protein, and 50% fat. Apparently, according to MFP, my goal for protein is 83 grams if my calorie goal is 1330 without exercising. I guess I trust MFP? (On a side note, I know exercising is good, but I'm still working on it... I also know that if you eat strict paleo you don't really have to track your calories, but I'm doing it for the drive and motivation I get from doing it.) I weigh about 170 lb, and I want to get down to at least 150 lb before I have another baby (the healthy way!)

shuki_cotren

On a side note - is it the protein amount you're concerned with, or the fact that Paleo's only significant source is from animals?

It's the protein amount. I feel like all I'm eating is animal meat. It's expensive, and according to some sources, just wasteful and unnecessary. I need to stick with the "palm" sized protein portions and instead make up the calorie difference with added fats. I just haven't been doing that. But now I will.

lrmall01

I wonder if you are measuring your meat calories properly. If you weigh it after cooking but enter the raw weight in MFP (or vice versa) you can end up tracking incorrectly. Double check how you are doing it.

I've heard it said that a paleo diet is mostly fat and protein when measuring calories but mostly carbohydrate by volume.

In other words your plate should have a lot of vegetables but the number of calories from those will be low.

fruttibiscotti

I use 1.5 g protein per kg lean body mass to calculate protein needs.

Also, a point a lot of people miss is that a low carb diet (Paleo being one of them) doesn't necessarily mean high protein. The other crucial macronutrient is fat. But, lots of people freak out with high fat ratios. I had to get over that paradigm shift myself, as the low fat propaganda was deeply seeded in my brain.

I now eat grass fed, free range beef, pork and lamb. Also, I consume pastured eggs and pastured poultry meat. I am more concerned about the QUALITY of meat than the leanness of meat. I'm not understanding why some paleo diets call for lean meats...the fat from an animal that has been out in the sunshine, eating grass, and never once munched on soybeans, grains or corn, is so much different from the standard variety. For example, I buy grass fed beef straight from a farmer which produces the upmost high quality 100% grass fed beef, and their analysis of the fats contained in their beef products contain as much omega 3 as fish. My opinion on this matter is to buy free range, grass fed meat, and don't be concerned if the cut is considered lean or not. Also, don't consume the same part of the animal - experiment with trying out snout to tail eating. Liver, bone marrow, shank, tongue, etc. Ground meat is good too because many cuts of meat are ground up - so you get various parts of the animal. Don't be afraid of fat. By not being afraid of fat, you will naturally eat less protein when you consume fattier parts of the animal. And like that, you will be closer to consuming a more ancestral diet, which I think is healthier.

My two cents...

ETA: change micronutrient to macronutrient

Akimajuktuq

Thanks for all of the responses! Those websites I looked at to find out what high-protein really is were soooo confusing!

I changed my macros to 25% carbs, 25% protein, and 50% fat. Apparently, according to MFP, my goal for protein is 83 grams if my calorie goal is 1330 without exercising. I guess I trust MFP? (On a side note, I know exercising is good, but I'm still working on it... I also know that if you eat strict paleo you don't really have to track your calories, but I'm doing it for the drive and motivation I get from doing it.) I weigh about 170 lb, and I want to get down to at least 150 lb before I have another baby (the healthy way!)

I think you could eat more than that, perhaps at least 1500-1600. No do not trust MFP defaults which spit out a number based on our sometimes unhealthy/unrealistic weight loss goals.

Read what fruttibiscott has to say about meat. I absolutely agree with everything said. Get to know your local farmers. Eat the whole animal. Do not avoid fat!!! Dr. Cordain, who founded the Paleo Diet, was focused on "lean meat only" but even he has gone back on that advice. I actually found his book first when I was researching this lifestyle and unfortunately the "low fat" attitude kept me away for another 3 years, until I found Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint. I've known for a long time that low fat is a complete fail for me. Get healthier meats, buy in bulk, or go in with a friend or two to purchase a whole animal, buy cheaper cuts, whatever. Learn to hunt wild animals, if that's a possibility in your area. To find healthy food takes effort. It's worth it.

I already mentioned that even though this lifestyle seems more expensive, there can be savings because we just naturally eat less (because we are fully nourished!) and are not sick. Fat is the most filling macro; eat more fat and you will eat less overall. The only thing I'm finding expensive right now is that I keep needing smaller clothes.

Nutmeg76

I'm not understanding why some paleo diets call for lean meats...the fat from an animal that has been out in the sunshine, eating grass, and never once munched on soybeans, grains or corn, is so much different from the standard variety. For example, I buy grass fed beef straight from a farmer which produces the upmost high quality 100% grass fed beef, and their analysis of the fats contained in their beef products contain as much omega 3 as fish. My opinion on this matter is to buy free range, grass fed meat, and don't be concerned if the cut is considered lean or not. Also, don't consume the same part of the animal - experiment with trying out snout to tail eating. Liver, bone marrow, shank, tongue, etc. Ground meat is good too because many cuts of meat are ground up - so you get various parts of the animal. Don't be afraid of fat. By not being afraid of fat, you will naturally eat less protein when you consume fattier parts of the animal. And like that, you will be closer to consuming a more ancestral diet, which I think is healthier.

Some, like Cordain, have changed their stance on lean meat, vs. fattier meats. His book came out at a time when he didn't want to rock the boat too much but wanted to get the message out there. Generally, most people adhere to the idea that if you can't afford or don't have access to grass fed meats, then you should eat lean cuts of meat and supplement fat intake with good fats. If you routinely eat grass fed meats and pastured eggs and chickens then eating the fatty meat is good. We can't afford grass fed, so we eat lean ground beef and add grassfed butter or coconut oil.

Dragonwolf

Some, like Cordain, have changed their stance on lean meat, vs. fattier meats. His book came out at a time when he didn't want to rock the boat too much but wanted to get the message out there. Generally, most people adhere to the idea that if you can't afford or don't have access to grass fed meats, then you should eat lean cuts of meat and supplement fat intake with good fats. If you routinely eat grass fed meats and pastured eggs and chickens then eating the fatty meat is good. We can't afford grass fed, so we eat lean ground beef and add grassfed butter or coconut oil.

When he originally wrote the book, he actually still believed the crap about saturated fat. So it wasn't so much rocking the boat, but rather writing about what he knew at the time. His republish in 2010/2011 revises his stand on saturated fat. I don't know the details, since I haven't read it (I just happened to find it in the books section at my local Kroger and read through the preface, where he mentions this).

greenhudler

I've heard it said that a paleo diet is mostly fat and protein when measuring calories but mostly carbohydrate by volume.

In other words your plate should have a lot of vegetables but the number of calories from those will be low.

This! Sometimes 3/4 of my plate is full of veggies (less than 100 calories) and then my small portion of meat may be 200 calories or more even though it's the smallest part of the plate