Madcow or 531 while cutting?

cajuntank

So have been on a cut a long time, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Want to get down another 12lbs or so and reassess to see how much more I will cut or take a break for a few weeks from current deficit. I have been running Madcow for all lifts now for 6 weeks and about 14 weeks for squats while I was finishing up StrongLifts on the others. Lifts are progressing fairly slowly and I might be adding a few lbs a month increases to my lifts, but I can see Madcow really needing a lot of calories to work well. So my question is should I be looking at something like 531 and doing one of the templates with less volume? My thinking is since the program is 4 days a week and spreads the body parts worked out by 2 days (instead of 1 like with Madcow) this would aid in recovery better while cutting. I would not attempt the volume for accessory lifts the program lists, but cut it down to maybe 3x8 instead of 5x10 or something like that. I really like the Madcow program, but I think I am literally being burnt out trying this while cutting for so long.

Sarauk2sf

It is probably me, as its a bit late, but where are you seeing that the body parts worked are spread by 2 days v 1 day on 5/3/1? Are you referring to the 'standard' 5/3/1?

Also, how long have you been cutting for and when was the last time you had a diet and/or training break?

danimalkeys

I found progress to stall out on 5/3/1 during my current (and continual) cut. As my weight drops, so do my lifts. Something I got 5 reps of 2 months ago I was getting 3 reps of more recently. You might find the same issue with 5/3/1, not sure, but I kept trying and it just didn't get me anywhere but frustrated, so I dropped it.

I'm trying something different, it's a 3x5 routine done 2 days a week. The idea is you do 3x5 of each lift, when you can get all 5 reps, you go to 6 reps. When you get 6 reps, you move to 7 reps. When you get 7 reps, you add weight (5lbs upper, 10lbs lower).

Day 1 is bench, row, squat, stiff leg dead
Day 2 is press, chinup, stiff leg dead, squat

You superset bench/row and squat/sldl. Same with press/chin, sldl/squat on day 2.

The workouts are quick but intense. I'm starting my 2nd week of it today and will go for 6 reps on everything, which should be no problem as I dropped way back on all my starting weights to sort of reset and give me room to grow over the next few months. I like the concept because it gives each lift room to grow at it's own pace, there is no tie in to preset weight increases like the other routines give. I think this will help me while on a cut. We'll see...

(not meaning to hijack, just offering my opinion after running 5/3/1 for several months with little to show for it)

cajuntank

It is probably me, as its a bit late, but where are you seeing that the body parts worked are spread by 2 days v 1 day on 5/3/1? Are you referring to the 'standard' 5/3/1?

So if I take the BBB template as an example, I would be working shoulders on say day one with benching as assistance on lighter weight, then on day two deadlifts heavy with squats being light as assistance, rest on day three, day four would be heavy bench and light shoulder assistance, day 5 would be heavy squat with light deadlift assistance. So by my calculations, the main compounds will be worked two days a week for higher frequency, but will have only a heavy day and a light day. And with the separation of muscle groupings and the third day off completely (usually Wednesday), this will give a 2 day difference instead of the 1 day I get now.

So right now, I workout M,W,F... Monday's being Squat, Bench Press, and Rows for a ramped set of 5; Wednesday is light Squat, ramped set of 5 for OHP, and ramped set of 5 for Deadlifts (and even though I am now only doing Deadlifts once a week compared to sometimes twice a week as before when I was running StrongLifts, with the heavy sets of Rows on Monday, there are many times I cannot even get the bar to move when I did 5lbs less for ramped set of 5 the week prior); Friday then back to Monday's workout except with ramped set of 3 at 5lbs more than Monday's workout + the 8 rep back off set. So the way I am seeing it, my shoulders and back take a beating every other day with heavy weights compared to my thought of how 531 would run since there would be the inclusion of both heavy and then light days for those body parts separated by two days instead of 1 day.

Hope that makes sense as this is how I am seeing it in my brain, so I am in need of some wisdom from someone that knows more than myself.

Also, how long have you been cutting for and when was the last time you had a diet and/or training break?

I have been cutting since October 2012 with only the sporadic cheat days thrown in due to holiday situations, business conferences, etc... but no more than eating closer to, or a little above, maintenance than for about a 4-5 days at any given time. It's been a few months (July) since I took a training break for about a week due to having to go out of town.

cajuntank

I found progress to stall out on 5/3/1 during my current (and continual) cut. As my weight drops, so do my lifts. Something I got 5 reps of 2 months ago I was getting 3 reps of more recently. You might find the same issue with 5/3/1, not sure, but I kept trying and it just didn't get me anywhere but frustrated, so I dropped it.

I'm trying something different, it's a 3x5 routine done 2 days a week. The idea is you do 3x5 of each lift, when you can get all 5 reps, you go to 6 reps. When you get 6 reps, you move to 7 reps. When you get 7 reps, you add weight (5lbs upper, 10lbs lower).

Day 1 is bench, row, squat, stiff leg dead
Day 2 is press, chinup, stiff leg dead, squat

You superset bench/row and squat/sldl. Same with press/chin, sldl/squat on day 2.

The workouts are quick but intense. I'm starting my 2nd week of it today and will go for 6 reps on everything, which should be no problem as I dropped way back on all my starting weights to sort of reset and give me room to grow over the next few months. I like the concept because it gives each lift room to grow at it's own pace, there is no tie in to preset weight increases like the other routines give. I think this will help me while on a cut. We'll see...

(not meaning to hijack, just offering my opinion after running 5/3/1 for several months with little to show for it)

Also as an FYI, I have also started to look at a Heavy Light Medium style program styled around 3x5 or even 5x5 as the sets can be across or ramped as the main point is the three loads across the week. So kinda like Madcow in most of its form, so Heavy day would be 100% of training max, Light day would be 10-20% less training max, the Medium day would be 5-10% less training max. OHP on Light day would still be 100% training max and only 1x5 on deadlifts instead of 4 ramping sets of 5 like now, but still 100% training max just less volume on deads.

cajuntank

Bumping as its been a few days.

haroon_awan

I'm just finished week 5, workout C of Madcow 5x5 this afternoon and I have to say I absolutely love it. I'm only 144lbs and I'm trying to get my squat, bench, deadlift etc up before I move on to 531. Like yourself, I am cutting for the last few lbs of fat but my main concern is getting my strength up. The light squat in workout B is genius as 3x heavy with StrongLifts and Starting Strength was getting to me in terms of fatigue as I was also running track occasionally at the time. Even though I don't run track any more and I have no plans of going back to SL or SS.

The way the program is set up is going very well for me. At my intake level, I'm unsure I would get my numbers up lifting heavy 4x a week on Wendler and I have grown very much accustomed to hitting each body part 2-3x a week.

cajuntank

And a Merry Christmas bump.

cajuntank

Bumping again since its been a few days.

Sarauk2sf

A couple of suggestions:

1) take a 'proper' training/diet break...2 weeks eating at maintenance, one of them also being a training break

and/or

2) stay on Madcow but limit to 3 ramp up sets to decrease the volume (which would make it a bit similar to 5/3/1) and add in some higher rep assist if you have the time/energy.

cajuntank

I understand the reasoning behind the first suggestion, can you expound a little on your suggestion for sticking with Madcow but with less volume? Does it relate to the first suggestion to try and eek out more linear progress weekly since eating more?

Sarauk2sf

I understand the reasoning behind the first suggestion, can you expound a little on your suggestion for sticking with Madcow but with less volume? Does it relate to the first suggestion to try and eek out more linear progress weekly since eating more?

It's for a couple of reasons, including.

- 5/3/1 can get hard on a cut and I am not sure that you will really see much benefit from it
- I believe that you should try to tweak programs you are on rather than changing them totally if you can
- when you are ready to change programs, it is often better to do it while not at a deficit - you are close to your goal weight so imo it makes sense to wait to change.

cajuntank

Ok, will give it a shot. I know my TDEE and so the worst that can happen will be I'll put on some water weight due to the added carbs, but that should go pretty quick once I go back to my normal cut.

Thanks.

Sarauk2sf

Locking the thread so we can track active ones better. Please feel free to PM either myself or SideSteel, including a link to this thread and we will be happy to unlock if you have further questions.