Metabolic capacity

MACnificence

Ok so just wanting your guys opinions on this
I think alot of us are familiar with the term metabolic adaption and reverse dieting
Here's the dilemma ,

Say someone is losing at a consistent rate over a period of time with a similar energy output then suddenly it stalls and they are unable to lose any more fat automatically people assume if you aren't losing/gaining you have reached maintainance

But Dr layne norton discusses reducing intake further/increasing activity is not always the answer
He actually recommends the opposite reduce cardio and slowly increase calories and often bam people are able to lose fat again

So which leads me to the question is this whole phenomenal actually down to when you increase calories your energy levels increase so your able to preform better in and outside the gym which in turns leads to better calorie burns which in turns helps break that fat loss plateau

Would love to hear yer thoughts on this

SideSteel

Tagging

BarbellApprentice

*bumping*

Also... Armi Legge interviewed Norton on a recent episode of Evidence Radio podcast and this was discussed.

_TastySnoBalls_

In for answers. I did see one of his vlogs on metabolic adaptation/reverse dieting. Lots of good stuff.

Sarauk2sf

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andeey

Tag.

SideSteel

So let me preface this post with the claim that I'm no Layne Norton in terms of qualifications or education or experience on this topic. However, that doesn't stop me from having an opinion or reading other sources.

With that being said, here's what I currently believe. Subject to change as I learn more, as I do my best to remain open to other possibilities.

I think that metabolic adaptations to dieting occur with most people in some varying degree. It's commonly referred to as Adaptive Thermogenesis and it is the additional decrease in energy expenditure beyond what would be expected from weight loss. I think the term "metabolic damage" was unfortunate in that it really implies that people have something wrong with them.

Now, can you take steps to prevent this from happening? The answer is, I don't know. However, if I WERE to take steps to attempt to either prevent this or minimize it, those steps would be resistance training, the use of periodic diet breaks, and at a certain level of leanness the use of refeeding.

I've heard various theories and had discussions with individuals whom I respect a great deal, and they're not quite aligned with each other. I've heard that metabolic downregulation is strictly tied to fat mass and not tied to acute caloric intake ---

--- example: If you lose 50lbs in 5 months vs losing 50lbs in 2 years, this theory states that you wouldn't see a difference in end metabolism because the adaptive response to dieting is associated with total fat mass and not the state of energy intake.

and I've also been told that caloric intake may play a role OUTSIDE of it's effects on weight reduction, indicating that slower rates of weight loss can potentially put you in a better place metabolically when you're done dieting.

Not much of a helpful reply, is it?

But in addition to the above, I would also add the following opinion:

Lean athletes, especially petite female atheletes, who are dieting on really low intakes (because they have to in order to get leaner) and doing a lot of cardio (because they have to in order to get leaner) probably have hormonal issues up the wazoo. Cortisol gets elevated, water retention is beyond control, adherence probably goes in the tank and when you're someone who doesn't have a large energy expenditure to begin with, the combination of all these factors can easily result in lack of weight loss.

Now there's a big difference between this demographic, and an obese person who under most circumstances probably isn't going to have the same set of hormonal issues or the same downregulated energy expenditure to cause massive stalls in weight loss.

In this regard, I think the concept of "Metabolic Damage" has unfortunately spread quite far and wide to people who probably don't match the conditions under which it would happen. Without posing this in an offensive manner to anyone and just to make a comparison, diet books that blame obesity on things outside of energy balance and exercise tend to appeal to the masses because it's their way of saying "you don't have to eat less, it's not about your diet or exercise, it's about XYZ".

In a way I think this metabolic damage concept is doing exactly the same thing to non lean, non athletic people who generally speaking are primed for weight loss. It just seems like there are a lot of people who claim to have metabolic damage who aren't lean, aren't athletic, and haven't lost much weight (so the adaptive effects wouldn't likely be there anyways). I'm going to guess that wasn't Layne's intent. My belief was that he was aiming this at a specific demographic, but I could certainly be wrong on that.

Now, does this mean that I don't think ANYONE who is obese could have a messed up metabolism? No. I just think that it would be pretty rare, and I believe that most often when dealing with an obese person who has a stall in weight loss the issue primarily revolves around accuracy of intake tracking (they're eating more than they think) or overestimation of expenditure or a combination of both.

Now finally as it pertains to building a better metabolic capacity, I can only rely on anecdote again, and I'm not sure if anything has been done researching the validity of reverse dieting. Speaking from personal experience, I was surprised at how high of an intake I was able to maintain on when I reversed out of a cut and into a bulk. Can I say this is how it always works? No, this is just an n=1 example.

So far, today, this is my opinion on this topic. It wouldn't surprise me if that changes as I learn more, but this is where I stand on it now.

MACnificence

Great answer sidesteel!

So can I pick your brain a little bit more ?

If you have a article that refers to this feel free to link it

But while reverse dieting you make small changes to your calories needs i.e slowly increase calories but I haven't came across a good article on what you should do in terms of exercise , should all exercise changes be slow and minimal aswell
I see the benefit of this as too many changes can make it difficult to track trends

This is where I'm going to be cheeky and turn it on myself
I have been doing alot of cardio ( an hour a day ) generally , 3 days lifting (all pro)
But I'm starting to have adherence issues and quiet simply feeling burnt out

The way I was tracking my cardio was by monitoring calorie burnt on my HRM and now that I'm quiet abit lighter than before its becoming increasingly hard to hit them calorie burns

My weight has been abit erratic recently but I'm putting that down to cortisol being more or less constantly elevated and the fact I was on painkillers, seen a bit of an usual jump on the scale so I'm putting it down to water weight

My main performance issues in the gym is lifting - progression is minimal very minimal and its making me a cranky biisshh
My sleep is also crap so not helping the situation

What's your thoughts on this ?

I have cut one cardio session a week so from 6 to 5 late December but haven't made any other changes because of weight being so erratic

SideSteel

Great answer sidesteel!

So can I pick your brain a little bit more ?

If you have a article that refers to this feel free to link it

But while reverse dieting you make small changes to your calories needs i.e slowly increase calories but I haven't came across a good article on what you should do in terms of exercise , should all exercise changes be slow and minimal aswell
I see the benefit of this as too many changes can make it difficult to track trends

This is where I'm going to be cheeky and turn it on myself
I have been doing alot of cardio ( an hour a day ) generally , 3 days lifting (all pro)
But I'm starting to have adherence issues and quiet simply feeling burnt out

The way I was tracking my cardio was by monitoring calorie burnt on my HRM and now that I'm quiet abit lighter than before its becoming increasingly hard to hit them calorie burns

My weight has been abit erratic recently but I'm putting that down to cortisol being more or less constantly elevated and the fact I was on painkillers, seen a bit of an usual jump on the scale so I'm putting it down to water weight

My main performance issues in the gym is lifting - progression is minimal very minimal and its making me a cranky biisshh
My sleep is also crap so not helping the situation

What's your thoughts on this ?

I have cut one cardio session a week so from 6 to 5 late December but haven't made any other changes because of weight being so erratic

When was your last diet break of two weeks or more?
When was your last training break?
How long have you been in a deficit continuously and has your change in weight reflected this?

MACnificence

Ehh ,

Never took a diet break since September '12
Took a week off from weights during the Xmas break not by choice but my gym was closed so had no other choice
Kept running throughout that period though
Have been in a deficit since sept '12 and have dropped a significant amount of weight (90Ibs)
Ya never really plateaued throughout that period , if I was to follow trends the weight loss always more or less was on a downward trend

Seen a low weight of 104 Ibs on December 21st and was sitting at 105.6 then up till last week when my weight decided to take a leap up to 110Ibs ( again I'm presuming the anti inflammatory painkillers has something to do with that because that was the only change)
It's still working its way down from that 107 yesterday , stopped taking tablets Friday

So I don't presume I can call that a plateau either because water seems to be altering results


ETA: small confession aswell , I had been reversing my calories up before Xmas per yourself and Sara's recommendation got a fear of the whole Christmas extra food weight gain dilemma and dropped to compensate so I've had to restart reversing my calories back up again ,
So most likely this brick wall is self induced and I'm probably just not eating enough for my goals!
TECHNICALLY I should be losing weight on my intake at the moment and it stirs me away from upping calories then again because I'm nervous ill overshoot maintainance

MACnificence

Bump

Just want to know how should I go from all this cardio to really focusing in on strength

I feel like I'm a runner who try's to lift now , I want to be a lifter who can run if needs be

I definitely feel like my routine is based more around cardio and F that , I wana be able to lift all the stuffs
I need to get some shape back into this body

heybales

I love how an admitted LCD of 890 is called "modest caloric reduction".

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004377

Forty-eight (36.8±1.0 y), overweight (BMI 27.8±0.7 kg/m2) participants were randomized to four groups for 6-months;
Control: energy intake at 100% of energy requirements;
CR: 25% calorie restriction;
CR+EX: 12.5% CR plus 12.5% increase in energy expenditure by structured exercise;
LCD: low calorie diet (890 kcal/d) until 15% weight reduction followed by weight maintenance.

Body composition (DXA) and total daily energy expenditure (TDEE) over 14-days by doubly labeled water (DLW) and activity related energy activity (AREE) were measured after 3 (M3) and 6 (M6) months of intervention.

Weight changes at M6 were −1.0±1.1% (Control), −10.4±0.9% (CR), −10.0±0.8% (CR+EX) and −13.9±0.8% (LCD).
At M3, absolute TDEE was significantly reduced in CR (−454±76 kcal/d) and LCD (−633±66 kcal/d) but not in CR+EX or controls.
At M6 the reduction in TDEE remained lower than baseline in CR (−316±118 kcal/d) and LCD (−389±124 kcal/d) but reached significance only when CR and LCD were combined (−351±83 kcal/d).

In response to caloric restriction (CR/LCD combined), TDEE adjusted for body composition, was significantly lower by −431±51 and −240±83 kcal/d at M3 and M6, respectively, indicating a metabolic adaptation.
Likewise, physical activity (TDEE adjusted for sleeping metabolic rate) was significantly reduced from baseline at both time points.
For control and CR+EX, adjusted TDEE (body composition or sleeping metabolic rate) was not changed at either M3 or M6.

Conclusions

For the first time we show that in free-living conditions, CR results in a metabolic adaptation and a behavioral adaptation with decreased physical activity levels. These data also suggest potential mechanisms by which CR causes large inter-individual variability in the rates of weight loss and how exercise may influence weight loss and weight loss maintenance.

SideSteel

1) I'd like to see you set your caloric intake to the following for the next two weeks.

1600 calories
190 carbs
45 fat
110p


2) Cut your cardio sessions from 5 to 3 for the next two weeks and DO NOT increase the intensity or duration or caloric output of your 3 sessions to compensate for this.

MACnificence

Ok perfect im on it!

just one more thing i mentioned in my previous post with ye that i have a weekly "treat meal" so to speak , really i just dont log on a sunday ive done this all along on this journey mainly for a mental break and for adherence

So do i still keep calories at 1600 during the week and continue to have my treat meal as usual , (the meal consists of the same thing weekly)

Thanks Again

SideSteel

Ok perfect im on it!

just one more thing i mentioned in my previous post with ye that i have a weekly "treat meal" so to speak , really i just dont log on a sunday ive done this all along on this journey mainly for a mental break and for adherence

So do i still keep calories at 1600 during the week and continue to have my treat meal as usual , (the meal consists of the same thing weekly)

Thanks Again

If that's what you were doing previously then yes.

BarbellApprentice

Good stuff!