5/3/1 Boring But Big

haroon_awan

I’ve hit a strength plateau and decided to re-watch the So You Think You Can Squat series and it really hit me when Matt Wenning said "You cannot fix weak spots on the squat by squatting, you have to do it with accessory exercises".

I’ve been doing the basic full body routines for the past 10 months: StrongLifts, then Starting Strength and currently Madcow (9 weeks as of Monday the 20th). My intake has been at a slight deficit since May and I’ve lost around 22lbs in 35 weeks. I’ve maintained my strength on the squat, deadlift and overhead press, increased my barbell row and pull ups but lost a little in the bench press. I’m not a big guy, 21 years old, 5’4.5” and 144lbs.

My main goal is to increase strength while at maintenance calories. Is this okay for someone of my experience level? It’s the Boring But Big routine from Wendler’s article here http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge (bottom of page 2)

Monday:
Military press 5/3/1 sets
Bench press 5x10
Rows or chins 5x10
Optional: curls, triceps or face pulls 3x10

Tuesday:
Deadlift 5/3/1 sets
Squat 5x10
Abs 5x10-20

Thursday:
Bench press 5/3/1 sets
Press 5x10
Rows or chins 5x10
Optional: curls, triceps or face pulls 3x10

Friday:
Squat 5/3/1 sets
Deadlift 5x10
Abs 5x10

Main points I got from the article:
* The one thing that you'll change is that you will not go for any extra reps on the last set. You'll only do the required reps and then move on to the 5 sets of 10 reps.
* The first month of the program, perform the (5x10) sets with 50% of your training max.
* The second month of the program, perform the sets with 60% of your training max.
* The third month of the program, perform the sets with 70% of your training max.
* Feel free to superset the assistance work. This will shorten the workout time and keep you from sitting on your *kitten* between sets. (I probably won’t superset anything unless I’m late for work)
* You're welcome to do some extra biceps, triceps, or upper back work on the upper body day. I’ll keep this limited

* It's important that the upper body work be paired with a pulling movement (in this case some kind of row or chin up works best).
Q) He doesn’t specifically say whether any assistance work should be using a barbell or dumbbells, e.g. on Thursday after 5/3/1 of bench should I do DB press or barbell press as my first assistance? The same for rows, i.e. one arm dumbbell rows or barbell bent over row?)

Sarauk2sf

What are your goals? Mainly strength? Are you progressing on your lifts doing Madcow? How many days are you able to train per week?

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haroon_awan

My goal is to increase strength yes. Maybe a competition by the end of the year. I'd like to be able to sprint faster and jump higher, and later this year I plan on starting gymnastics, but that's another story.

I'm sort of progressing in Madcow. I had been progressing as the plan was laid on everything, but by the end of week 7 I didn't hit my numbers of squat and bench. I took a deload and reduced the weight by 10% of those lifts and restarted at the start of this week. I hit my numbers for squat and row, but missed my bench by 2 reps, and overhead press by 1 rep, and my deadlift by 4 reps. Essentially, I've hit the same max numbers I did with Starting Strength on squat, bench, deadlift and press and I can see this being repeated until I start bulking or moving to another program.

I can train 4 times per week.

Jerry, yes that's was what I thought about DB/barbell. After all this time on full body I have much preferred barbell exercises and I don't like the machines because I can move more with free weights so I thought I'd ask!

Sarauk2sf

I would look to seeing if you have a form issue first with your lifts. You have done 3 different programs in 10 months, and jumping to a 4th may not be the best option - you should be able to progress on these routines for longer. Obviously, progression will be impacted by being at a deficit, but you will have the same issue with most programs. Would you be able to post videos of your lifts?

Also, are there specific areas in the lifts where you are failing?

DopeItUp

Just a side note, I did a similar progress to you. SL to Madcow to 5/3/1 BBB. I can tell you that BBB is a whollle lot of work for someone in a deficit (at least, it was for me). I did okay with it, but I didn't see any gains at all. In fact, after a while I started going backwards. 4 days a week with that kind of volume was just too much I think. I was only in a 250cal/day deficit too.

I ended up switching to a bulk and sticking to the routine and have since surpassed my PRs so that's another reason why I think it was just too much in a deficit.

Next cut, I will probably continue with 5/3/1 but cut out the BBB accessory work. Probably do something like First Set Last, 3x5. And superset with a good 3x8-10 accessory movement (chins on OHP day, rows on bench day, etc) and that's it. Hopefully I will have better luck maintaining or even increasing strength that way.

One final note, don't get too discouraged. As you mentioned and I alluded too, at some point gains are going to be very hard to come by while in a deficit. I spun my wheels for months with madcow and 5/3/1 before I gave up and added calories. I'm only just now beating PRs from last summer as a result.

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haroon_awan

I would look to seeing if you have a form issue first with your lifts. You have done 3 different programs in 10 months, and jumping to a 4th may not be the best option - you should be able to progress on these routines for longer. Obviously, progression will be impacted by being at a deficit, but you will have the same issue with most programs. Would you be able to post videos of your lifts?

Also, are there specific areas in the lifts where you are failing?

Okay, lots of comments so I'll reply individually.

Sara, I recorded some videos this morning of squat, bench and row. Shall I post it here or in the form critique thread?

In terms of where I am failing:
Squats, getting out of the hole. When I do get out and grind the rep out I get sort of shaky if that makes sense; transfer pressure in different parts of my foot, knees wobble a little and I feel my back losing tightness.
Bench, I've played with pause bench in the past so I can get the bar off my chest but after that locking out is difficult.
Rows, I think I'm quite good at, I do use a little swing but I've been told it's okay to do.
Overhead press, same as bench, I'm starting to think my grip might be too narrow.
Deadlift, getting the bar off the ground. I've been doing conventional since I started Madcow but I can pull more sumo as I had been doing that predominately and decided do change to improve my lower back.

haroon_awan

Just a side note, I did a similar progress to you. SL to Madcow to 5/3/1 BBB. I can tell you that BBB is a whollle lot of work for someone in a deficit (at least, it was for me). I did okay with it, but I didn't see any gains at all. In fact, after a while I started going backwards. 4 days a week with that kind of volume was just too much I think. I was only in a 250cal/day deficit too.

I ended up switching to a bulk and sticking to the routine and have since surpassed my PRs so that's another reason why I think it was just too much in a deficit.

Next cut, I will probably continue with 5/3/1 but cut out the BBB accessory work. Probably do something like First Set Last, 3x5. And superset with a good 3x8-10 accessory movement (chins on OHP day, rows on bench day, etc) and that's it. Hopefully I will have better luck maintaining or even increasing strength that way.

One final note, don't get too discouraged. As you mentioned and I alluded too, at some point gains are going to be very hard to come by while in a deficit. I spun my wheels for months with madcow and 5/3/1 before I gave up and added calories. I'm only just now beating PRs from last summer as a result.

Dope, I had seen your threads in the past actually and that was how I first decided to do Madcow. I do a lot of walking (I'm a waiter) so my deficit has been mainly, but not exclusively, through exercise. I've been in a slight deficit for a long time and in fact I will start eating at least maintenance once I move to a more professional job and then slowly transition into a bulk. My first bulk was pretty dirty... 3000+ calories for a small and short guy

haroon_awan

Just wanted to mention, if, OP, you read the entire article that you posted excerpts from, you will see an entire portion of it dedicated to food. In it, it says that this is a muscle building program and you need to eat. This, IMO, and in the opinion of whomever wrote it, is NOT a workout to do in a deficit. Having said that, you can do any program in a deficit. But, this isn't designed for that, this is an eating bulking program that is designed for a 3 month cycle. So, I would say that it's probably not the right fit for your needs at this time. I mean, do it if you want, but it's not a weight loss thing. It's the opposite, so you might find that you have problems with it. It goes from 50%, to 60%, to 70% on the accessory lifts over the 3 month period. That's not deficit work. That is eat and gain work.

Just something to keep in mind. It's hard to gain strength in a deficit. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Jerry, I did have to remind myself of that which is why I thought about moving into maintenance calories if I was advised to move to 531 BBB but now I am questioning even that. I wouldn't do it at a deficit, especially after Dope has just told me how it went for him considering I am in a similar position to where he was. I'm not the kind of guy to just ignore advice from others who more experienced than me.

If the mood is that 531 BBB is way too much work even in maintenance, then should I continue with Madcow for now or is there another 4-day program that's good based on strength levels?

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DopeItUp

Just wanted to mention, if, OP, you read the entire article that you posted excerpts from, you will see an entire portion of it dedicated to food. In it, it says that this is a muscle building program and you need to eat. This, IMO, and in the opinion of whomever wrote it, is NOT a workout to do in a deficit. Having said that, you can do any program in a deficit. But, this isn't designed for that, this is an eating bulking program that is designed for a 3 month cycle. So, I would say that it's probably not the right fit for your needs at this time. I mean, do it if you want, but it's not a weight loss thing. It's the opposite, so you might find that you have problems with it. It goes from 50%, to 60%, to 70% on the accessory lifts over the 3 month period. That's not deficit work. That is eat and gain work.

Just something to keep in mind. It's hard to gain strength in a deficit. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Jerry, I did have to remind myself of that which is why I thought about moving into maintenance calories if I was advised to move to 531 BBB but now I am questioning even that. I wouldn't do it at a deficit, especially after Dope has just told me how it went for him considering I am in a similar position to where he was. I'm not the kind of guy to just ignore advice from others who more experienced than me.

If the mood is that 531 BBB is way too much work even in maintenance, then should I continue with Madcow for now or is there another 4-day program that's good based on strength levels?

Why not just do the traditional 5/3/1?

Sorry, but I realized something in my posting and I want to clarify. In the workout you posted, you're not doing BBB. You're doing a T-Nation challenge on the BBB model. I've actually just started that. BBB is not that. It's different. I'm referring to the T-Nation challenge, which is what you posted, as being too much for you, maybe. But, if you of did the more traditional BBB routine, I think you'd be fine. And, actually, if you read his book, there are several different methods that incorporate the same concept, just the assistance work changes. You can do 5/3/1 on a deficit just fine. But, throughout this entire thread, I've been discussing the T-Nation challenge BBB routine, which is a progressive building workout schedule. And which is what you posted about. So, I'm sorry for the confusion.

Actually, if you are interested in the different routines available in the 5/3/1 format, go to this website: www.blackironbeast.com click on 5/3/1 and you can enter whatever information, and it will spit out the routine for you. It's pretty awesome. I just sent the guy money because he's saved me so much time from having to calculate everything manually.

I use blackironbeast too I just cut + paste the routine into excel and print it out for my gym bag. One month's routine takes about 5-10 minutes of work at most. Pretty handy.

DopeItUp

Jerry, I did have to remind myself of that which is why I thought about moving into maintenance calories if I was advised to move to 531 BBB but now I am questioning even that. I wouldn't do it at a deficit, especially after Dope has just told me how it went for him considering I am in a similar position to where he was. I'm not the kind of guy to just ignore advice from others who more experienced than me.

If the mood is that 531 BBB is way too much work even in maintenance, then should I continue with Madcow for now or is there another 4-day program that's good based on strength levels?

Just keep in mind, everyone IS different. You're 13 years younger than me, you might have a lot better luck with BBB than I did. Especially at maintenance calories. I think you'll find out pretty quickly how it's going to go with you so it's not like it's a big deal either way

haroon_awan

Okay I just realised that the link was to a different version of BBB as you said Jerry. Thanks for pointing that out hah.

As requested by Sara here are some videos of my lifts from Madcow's C workout (all are 5th and 6th sets).
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1146855-form-critique-thread-post-your-videos-here?page=3#posts-18441164

Let me know what you guys think on Madcow or 531 traditional (regular BBB, right?) or even Triumvirate.

That website is the bomb.com

jacksonpt

I would look to seeing if you have a form issue first with your lifts. You have done 3 different programs in 10 months, and jumping to a 4th may not be the best option - you should be able to progress on these routines for longer. Obviously, progression will be impacted by being at a deficit, but you will have the same issue with most programs. Would you be able to post videos of your lifts?

Also, are there specific areas in the lifts where you are failing?

Form was my first thought as well.

Could it also be mental... could your plateau be more mental than physical?

Sarauk2sf

Okay I just realised that the link was to a different version of BBB as you said Jerry. Thanks for pointing that out hah.

As requested by Sara here are some videos of my lifts from Madcow's C workout (all are 5th and 6th sets).
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1146855-form-critique-thread-post-your-videos-here?page=3#posts-18441164

Let me know what you guys think on Madcow or 531 traditional (regular BBB, right?) or even Triumvirate.

That website is the bomb.com

Thanks - will look at tomorrow.

steve_mfp

I have done 5/3/1 for 18 months now.

I currently do the 5/3/1 - Triumvirate. This is because of my goals. Strength training is cross training for me. My primary effort physically is my martial arts training. Triumvirate allows me to do strength training and hit my weak areas or avoid injured areas and deal with my age...i've got 2 decades on you.

The Boring but Big series, especially the aggressive one is for putting on mass/strength and Wendler even says it will be brutal. For him to say it's going to be brutal you know it's going to be fairly tough since strength training is what he does.

You're at a good age to push your body...the question is if this is your goal. BBB expects you to eat well above maintenance, he mentions something like 2 times your normal protein. And he recommends whole protein...not powders. So you are looking at 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound of body weight. Lots of carbs and fats, "you gotta eat big to be big". This isn't a time to guess at calories and try to do the math to get that perfect amount. This is time to pack it on. You can cut later.

So i think if you dedicated yourself to the program and followed the recommended diet and accessory work, prowler/sled work, hill sprints, weighted vest walking etc, you would get results. If the results are what this program is designed for. You also mentioned gymnastics...gymnastics and power lifting really do not go hand in hand. I could see doing the basic 5/3/1 and all accessory work is body weight exercises but i don't think you would get the same results.

So it's really about what your goals are. And once you choose that goal dedicate yourself to it fully.

A lot of people say they tried this program or that program and it didn't work. It's usually because they didn't fully commit. They cut corners or make excuses or substitutions based on some other program. Same reason people don't lose weight, they do not fully commit, aside from those with legitimate medical reasons such as thyroid, etc. but the number of those people is far lower than those that claim it.

Also if you decide 5/3/1 is for you, i'd recommend his ebooks, 5/3/1 and Beyond 5/3/1. And if you really want to follow this program and want to speak with the 'experts' on this program, if you find his website they have closed forums. However, it's $15 a month to be a member. Kinda steep in my opinion but there is absolutely no BS and lots of info and feed back from other power lifters in a closed, non-anonymous forum. Personally, if i was totally focused on strength training then i'd probably be a member. But again, it's about what your goal is.

haroon_awan

Very helpful, thank you Steve.

So I've decided to do 531 Triumvirate at maintenance calories. Use the starting recommendations by Wendler, slowly progress and see how things go. Does anyone have any alternatives to doing a good morning? I've never done them so I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be. Plus, my gym is full of douche bros and I'll probably get a bunch of guys telling me to stop doing it and I don't want to deal with their high school drama. I'll do them the first time but for now a few suggestions would be great. I don't have a GHR or a reverse hyper so those are out sadly.

steve_mfp

You can do hyperextensions/back extensions.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/detail/view/name/hyperextensions-back-extensions

These will primarily work the lower back but also hits the hammies and glutes.

You can also use plates to add some weight.

Luckily my gym has one of those padded yoke bars for good mornings. Another alternative are the machines, they do a good job of targeting the lower back and keeping you strapped in.

Other good exercises are the Romanian Dead Lift and Glute Bridges.

I throw these into the mix as well.