need advice after getting RMR tested

anderson958

Greetings, all --

I've been more of a lurker than anything else on this thread for the last three or four months, and I've learned a ton from everyone. so thanks ahead of time!

Have been counting calories since July 2013, have lost 35 pounds while (hopefully) maintaining muscle by using first Power 90 and then kettlebells. I began to plateau at the beginning of January, and decided to get my RMR tested. Got that done last week and the tester said that my RMR was a bit lower than it should have been. My stats:

age 55, height 5'2", weight 165, female. post-menopausal. Body fat is somewhere around 27 or 28%, using Heybales' simple set up and calipers. Started at 201, now at 165, goal is 140 which seems right if my LBM is 118 pounds. Work out with kettlebells three days a week, no more than 20 minutes for strength and have just started interval training on my nordic trak.

RMR tested at 1223. V02max, done at the same time, was 38 although the woman who ran the test couldn't get my heart rate up past 150 or so (but I've gone as high as 162 during my workouts), but said I was in good shape. The RMR test was done with all the proper protocols, as far as I can tell: 12 hours fasting, no exercise for the day before and only light exercise two or three days before that, full relaxation (she left the room) in an easy chair. I have all the raw data, and she showed me where my heart rate stabilized at 51 for the rest of the 15 minutes--but my readings were so low that she asked me if I had fallen asleep at all (I hadn't). And I don't know what she was reading to ask that. The machine (?) was by New Leaf, since the printouts she sent me all had that logo. She seems to be the main person that runners use in my area; we don't have a lot of options but she's been doing this for more than ten years.

Her recommendation was that I eat at 1712 or thereabouts, which she calculated from my predicted RMR and activity level. Her recommendations match Heybales' spread sheets, which I have been using for the past couple of months. I had been eating between 1400 and 1500 for about the last three months, and the woman who tested me suggested that I'm just on the edge of not eating enough, and maybe exercising too much for what I'm eating. She recommends 1700 calories, don't eat back exercising calories unless I net below my current RMR (1223).

So, how does this seem to you all? I don't think I need to do a full metabolic reset, but going from 1400 to 1500 calories a day (NOT net) to 1700 will be a step up. I'm pretty rigorous about logging; I've gone some 190 days in a row. So, just looking for advice and/or reassurance, mostly. And thanks.

AnitraSoto

If I were you, I would just bump my calories up by about 100 a day and stay three for a week or two (or even longer) until your weight stabilizes. Continue to "test" your metabolism - challenge it with this additional 100 calories a day to see how it responds. While doing this, I would keep your exercise the same (so that you are not changing two variables at the same time...) Just take it slow and watch to see how your body reacts -- if you start to gain steadily, and your weight does not stabilize, then perhaps you have surpassed your TDEE - then back it down by 100 calories a day and monitor again.

heybales

So you've probably noticed in the spreadsheet it was likely using your Katch BMR with LBM at 120 lbs.
Katch BMR - 1542
Cunningham RMR would be - 1694

Taking your tested RMR 1223 to a matching BMR though would be 1080.

So either that BF% is way off (like up to almost 50%), or indeed you have a very suppressed metabolism. 400-500 below where expected for your LBM.
Now, sedentary woman is indeed 5-10% less than a man anyway at same LBM, BMR is close to same % less, so might say from the formula, 2.5 - 5% less than calculated.
So Katch - 1468
Cunningham - 1609

Still not good compared to your tested.

Do you use the BF calc with measurements too, or just skin calipers?
Calipers is another 5% potential accurate method - in the hands of a skilled experienced person doing it. If that's the case, use the average of measurements and calipers.

So don't use the spreadsheet with that tested RMR figure, it'll lower your goals. You can log it in the Progress tab of course as a record.

How long had you plateaued? You said beginning of January, and it's only coming up on 4 weeks into Jan.
So if you had like a week with no movement - that ain't a plateau. Weight loss isn't linear, start a new routine and get increased needed water retention, and that'll mask any weight loss.

Or more correctly you mean you had already been stalled for about 4 weeks at the beginning of January?

Was logging food really accurate through the holidays?
I mean like, weighing everything, except liquids are measured?
No skipped meals or days not logged because they were too bad?

Honest in the Activity Calculator with your intended time, or trying to play it safe, or forgetting increased daily activity?
And kettle balls is not weight lifting in the sense of low calorie burn because of sets and rests - usually high cardio level.

I'm going to suggest moving on up to estimated TDEE for a few weeks.
If only a short time with lowered, you may be able to recover it enough eating at maintenance for awhile.

Then as Anitra said - there is a 2 week 250 test. 250 extra calories over estimated TDEE should only cause 1 lb gain, that's it.
If you gain more or it's fast - then it's water weight - and you were not eating at TDEE.
If no gain, still not TDEE.
Test again.

rlw0031

Yes this was very important for me to learn thanks to Heybales! He told me about the 250 test and I did that to discover what my true TDEE was. Finally when I consistently ate the 250 over what I had thought to be my TDEE I gained the one pound. And that is how I knew what my TDEE was.

anderson958

Anitra,

This is good advice. As soon as I absorb what Heybales advises, this sounds like a good plan. And as everyone says on this thread, it's SCARY! But it sounds like a reasonable way to figure this out. Thanks.

anderson958

Heybales,

Wow. OK, let me sort through this. Bear with me... and thanks. First, yeah, numbers aren't where they should be according to any calculation (Katch or Cunningham). Tested RMR at 1223 with a matching BMR gives me something like 50% BF, which is way way off. Even a friend's handheld Omron read 33%. Measurement BF calcs give an average of 28% BF, 7 point Jackson something or other gives 22% (I'm new to calipers), and as I just said a friend's handheld Omron gave 33%, so by any combination of these my BF is between 28% and 30%. As you said in the spread sheet, I deleted the 1223 since it was more than 5% below other estimates. I did log it in Progress, thanks.

Second, on plateau... you're right: it wasn't a true plateau but it was a solid two weeks of absolutely no movement after a continuous 8 weeks of pretty steady 1 1/2 pounds/week loss. And even though you're right to raise the questions, I'm really anal about logging... log on my iPhone when I'm out, on iPad at home. Only uncertainties were portion size and occasionally not knowing exactly what went into a friend's cooked dish. And that was only three or four days over the holiday season (I'm pretty much a home body).

Third, kettlebells and estimated activity. Yeah, I never know where to put my kettlebell workouts. Up until a week ago, I was doing dynamic kettlebell work three times a week for 50 minutes. I've now shifted to only slow lifting with kettlebells (so back to more traditional low calorie burn weight lifting), no swings or ballistic work just lifts... and then interval training on nordic track. I've changed all that on the activity calculator, but it's only into week 2 of this routine, so it's all pretty new in terms of this new workout and activity calculator. And it's winter in Michigan, so I've got snow shoveling out the wazoo some days, and nothing other days. So my estimated activity can be all over the place but, again, count me anal but I do use the HRM when I shovel snow so at least I've got a solid record of the exercise times.

Thanks for all this. I'm following all of your advice, and trying out the 250 calories extra for two weeks, and see if I can hit my TDEE. I've got a solid record of logging since last July so I've run the TDEE test on the progress sheet, and my TDEE came in around 2400.... but I've changed my exercise routines since then, so I'm sort of starting from scratch. The idea of eating 2400 a day is pretty overwhelming.... but I'll get my head around it!

THANKS to all of you. That's exactly what I was hoping for. I'll report back in a week or two.

anderson958

Thanks to all of you! I'll report back.....

heybales

Glad to see you beat me to the punch, of using the TDEE calc based on weight lost and eating level.

What you might do with perhaps the last month of data where you did lose whatever amount start to finish, is not only see what the adjusted TDEE is, but setup the Activity calc with whatever you were doing during that time, so backtracking.

You'll need the other stats post dated too, you might make a copy of spreadsheet so as not to mess with current stats.

So all stats correct as to the last of that month where you still lost weight.
Activity calc with whatever the general workout was for that month.
Progress tab TDEE calc with the months eating, pounds lost, and best estimate TDEE.
The TDEE calc will mention what to change in hours of service trades to get the TDEE to be equal.

Now use that adjustment in the current stat spreadsheet. And change the exercise all around to your current plans.

That adjustment I'm betting is still valid, but now it will be applied to current weight, current BMR, current exercise routine, ect.
Should have a better estimate of TDEE to goal to for a diet break. Which is likely what you needed, just a break.

When was your last exercise break?

Might want to take 2 weeks and really unstress.
Week 1 exercise break, only walking/hiking during the normal time of exercise. Come up with new correct TDEE for this week and still eat at the deficit.
Week 2 diet break, but exercise back to normal, new correct TDEE for this week, no deficit. Your body with nice exercise break will really be ready to go even harder than you've probably seen in a while - and what better time to feed it some extra calories - it'll know what to do with them. Not surplus, just maintenance, but still.

If your exercise hasn't been that intense, may not be that big of a deal. But under a diet, recovery is always impaired, most are surprised how strong they come back after a real recovery.

anderson958

Thanks for all this, Heybales. I'm sure glad you enjoy helping us all out with this! OK, some more info. I haven't had any real kind of break since I started this journey in July last summer: I stopped smoking, started counting calories, and exercising. So it's been a solid six months; have lost now 37 pounds. Exercise break, I took about four to five days off after finishing a fourth month kettlebell program and just before getting tested for my RMR--that was about two + weeks ago. I did come back a bit stronger when I started this new interval program, and it surprised me. But I haven't taken a long break (like a week or more) since I began. A day or three when I'm out of town for business, and then this longer 4-5 day break but not as long as a week. So a week off sounds like it makes sense, and taking a break from exercise one week and then eating to my TDEE for a while makes more sense.

I can do the backtracking on the Activity Calc. I think that's my weak spot in all this. I track exercise with HRM and times really well, but as far as daily movement I really just guess. I have been keeping pretty good track of how much I move on the weekends but at work I'm all over the place. I teach for a living, but am in my office a good chunk of the day and depending on the term, I'm in the classroom more or less. I actually think I walk more than I think I do. But saving the spread sheet under a different name and then back dating the info you mentioned should give me some good comparison. The last time I had a steady loss was actually in Nov/ December when I wasn't teaching at all, so maybe it's stress related. I had smaller "plateaus" earlier in the fall but nothing so clear as the one late Dec/early in January just at the start of the new teaching year.

I do have a question about how weight gain works: I'm more than familiar with the water weight gain after a hard workout or a night of high sodium food. But when and how can you tell if you've actually gained weight? How long does it take for that to show up on the scale? A week after eating more? Two weeks? (I haven't read through the threads to find the answer--I'm sure it's there, but it just popped into my head.)

So, I'll back date my activity log and see if I can figure something out there. And figure out if I take a break from exercise now, or what. Since I *just* started this new interval program last week I'm thinking I run with it for the eight weeks while eating to my TDEE and see what happens. Then at the end of the eight weeks, take some exercise time off. (You can tell I'm gonna have a hard time taking a break.... maybe *that's* the point!) Thanks! Really appreciate it. I'll post results.

heybales

4-5 days isn't bad, unless 2 of the days were normal rest days anyway, in which case, idea of waiting until end of current routine should work nicely for your timing of slowly increasing to estimated TDEE.

By then, last 2 weeks should be able to do the 250 test. Since not a new program, no artificial weight gain from retained water, if you weigh on valid days.
So plan your increases to TDEE to be finished in 6 weeks or whatever is left, last 2 weeks will be the 250 more test.
I think that will let you use calories wisely and make great improvement from the workout.

So if you can grab a month for stats that has normal daily activity you'll be continuing, sounds like NOT the month of Nov/Dec where activity is very different.
That way if says TDEE was higher than estimated, the increased hours for service trades would apply now too.

Valid weight gain.
First, valid weigh-in days to minimize chance of valid water weight gains or losses.
Morning after rest day eating normal sodium levels, not sore from last workout.
That minimizes lower than normal glucose stores with water from not topping off after a big workout night before.
Minimizes false gain or loss based on diet.
Minimizes false gain based on muscle water retention for purpose of repair.

If you have valid days for stats, 1 week should be enough. Then again, you may have several weeks after starting a program where your 1 potentially valid weigh-in day still has you sore from lifting workout day before rest day. In which case it could take several weeks.
But water weight changes will drown (ha!) in longer data stats. Eventually downward trend will show up as the max change from sodium or glucose or soreness is limited.

anderson958

This sounds like a great plan. So, I grabbed data from October to November to check activity levels and plugged that into my spread sheet (saved under a new name). Average eaten daily was 1571, lost 5.5 pounds in that period, apparent TDEE was 2258 and change activity calc standing hours read 18. (The last time I did this for late Dec/January, activity calc standing hours were 22 and TDEE was 2281, so we're really close, as you said.)

So, I have a bit over six weeks left to run in this eight week interval training program. I'll begin to eat to 2258 over the next four weeks, maintaining the same exercise program throughout. And then during the last two weeks, I'll do the 250 more test. Sound right to you?

I'll keep you all posted on what happens. Thanks, Heybales, for all of this. And for the explanation of how to tell about valid weight gain. I do measure on days after rest days and no soreness from working out. I'm using the Happy Scale app, which is really good at helping me to spot trends as opposed to sodium, sore muscles, muscle repair weight gain.

Great to have a plan. Thanks so much...!!

heybales

I'd suggest plug that 18 hrs into the current stats spreadsheet, with Activity Calculator that has your current workout plan in it.

Then head up to whatever that TDEE is.

May not change much at all, but until you have another month of your usual activity, I think it'll be closer.

So you are moving from around 1600 to probably around 2300? 700 calories in 4 weeks, 200 each week additional until 4th week, then 100 more, not bad at all.
Then indeed 250 test.

anderson958

Gad, when you lay it out like that, it's a tossup between OMG! and Christmas. But thanks for laying it out so clearly. Increases start next Monday! Thanks. Stay tuned for the results. And thanks!

anderson958

One more note: I plugged the 18 hours into current activity calculator with current activity, and it gave me 2295 TDEE. So that's what I'm shooting for. Fingers crossed!