In a rut, what to do next?

jackielou867

Hi everyone. I am after some advice, ideas, input, suggestions, whatever you like to call it.
I am 47 years old, female, 60.5 kilos currently, with a pot belly after having 3 big babies and carrying the excess weight for 20 years.
I began my weight loss journey last year, dropped a few kilos, joined a gym, dropped a few more, reached goal but felt a little chubby still. I did some research, learnt about body fat% and LBM. Started a programme of lifting.
I was impressed with the idea of a bulk/cut cycle, but when I tried to bulk I could not persuade myself mentally to eat over maintenance. Then I hit Christmas went wild for 3 whole days, and easily put on a kilo, but not the right sort of kilo. I took a couple if weeks to sugar detox, then went for the bulk again. This time I ate a little more, but I was practically force feeding the last couple of hundred calories. I put on a couple of kilos, but honestly I began to feel really fat and bloated, so 3 weeks ago I went back onto maintenance. I felt a lot better and resigned myself to a slow, clean, lean bulk. Then bam, last week I was really sick for 4 days, and lost almost all the3 kilos. So I am now pretty much back to where I was at the start of December. I feel like I am working really hard at the gym. I have programmes set by the PTI which we change every 6 weeks, currently I have a 4 day split.

Example programme
Day 1
chest and triceps
cross trainer 5 mins
Olympic press 10 reps 4 sets 30kg
ball alt press 10 reps 4 sets 2x9 kg
db flye 10 x 4 with 2 x 9kg
tricep press b/b 10x4x12.5 ( I dropped the weight down here because I think I was doing it wrong)
tricep extension 10x4 with 2x5kg db
20 mins treadmill hill setting


day 2 back and biceps
day 3 legs -I can squat at 40 but to get my 10 reps I can only do 35kg if I want to get low.
day 4 shoulders and abs

I am eating 80% natural healthy foods. I look at my progress photos and I see a huge difference the first 6 months, and really nothing for the last 6 months.
I am on 1800 maintenance calories, and I have 120-150g protein a day, I wear a fitbit since Jan which usually gives me 200-500 more depending on my activity. My diary is open. My only cardio is walking, my job is sedentary and I go to the gym 3-4 times a week, alternate days where I can and rest days in between.

I have done so much research my head is spinning, it seems like I am doing everything right, but clearly I am not. I do not expect results overnight, but I would like to see at least some progress.

So in short, my main aim is to be stronger and leaner. I have excess body fat I would like to part company with. Any input about the best way to proceed appreciated. In particular I am interested in your opinions as to wether I should be lifting heavier with less reps, or more reps/sets with lighter weights. The stronglifts 5x5 sounds interesting but is it any good for what I want to do.
Can I stick to maintenance calories or should I be eating just a little over. I confess I used to be a food junkie, 6 months ago I would run/cardio for calories for cookies and ice cream, but now its really hard to get over my calories on healthy foods, and I have developed an aversion to large quantities of filler foods.

Any help advice or success stories appreciated.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging.

One quick question though - how long have you been lifting for?

Also, could you list the other days of the routine?

jackielou867

Hi. Thanks for looking over my post.

I have been lifting almost a year. I have gym membership though may have to give it up soon. I do have a bench, barbell and dumbbell at home.
I have programme change every 6 weeks, but I do not really know what to ask for and although I like lifting in general I am not sure if my technique is correct, only a couple of times has someone come and corrected my form. I sometimes feel I have put in a lot of effort, but have no soreness or aches the next day. I don't feel I need recovery days, but I do have them. In the beginning I was going almost every day, because I get a bit obsessive about things. Currently I go about 8 x a fortnight.
I try to alternate days, but due to work, and gym closing early on weekends it looks a bit like this
Monday work, no gym
Tuesday off, plenty of time to work out, this is a day I can push my self if I want to increase weight/reps/sets
Wed long commute, no gym
Thursday short day, gym
Friday off, big workout day
Sat/Sun work, no gym
Mon work, gym
Tuesday work, no gym
Wednesday work no gym
Thursday, short day, gym
Friday work, no gym
Sat/Sun off gym both days.

My other programmes are

Day 2 Back and Bis
Cross trainer warm up
Assisted chin ups, 8reps 4 sets with 32kg weight on machine.
Seated row 10 x 4 x 32. Going to try for 8x4 x 39kg next visit. I have not increased this one in a while.
Single D/B row elbow in 10 x 4 x 12.5kg (was 10kg at start)
B/B biceps curl 10 x 4 x 20kg
D/B incline curl 10 x 4 with 2 x 8kg (just increased form 7kg
stepper to finish for cardio

Day 3 Legs
Cross trainer to warm up
BB squat 10 x 4 x 35
45 plate press 10 x 4 x 120
leg extension (machine) 10 x 4 x 52
Romanian deadlift 10 x 4 x 50 ( last week I tried 5 x 5 x 60)
leg curls 10 x 4 x 32 ( will try 39 this week)
roman extension. 10 x 4 holding a 15k db
calf press on the 45 degree machine, 20 x 2 120kg
no cardio this day

Day 4 Shoulders and abs
DB OH press 10 x 4 with 9
BB upright row 8 x 4 with 20 (just increased from 10 x 4 x 17.5)
bb front raise 8 x 4 with 12.5 ( just increased from 10 x 4 x 10)
seated rear fly 10 x 4 with 3kg (trying to increase to 4kg DBs but find this move quite hard)
incline sit up 15 x 4 holding 5k weight
M/ball oblique twist 15 x 4 with 8kg
plank 4 x minimum 1 minute. Trying to stretch a couple out to 2 mins.
treadmill walking, incline.

I have had a big eating week this week, due to visit from grown up kids. Plus I relaxed a little as I was sick last week, so I had a bit of making up to do.
The 3kg I lost has pretty much come back now which is good, I think. Still a little bit sad to see scales go up instead of down, but I'm working on it.

In the past I had a history of yo yo dieting. I was uneducated and lost weight only to put it all back. I could never understand, how I fluctuated around the same weight, give or take, yet each year felt fatter and went up dress sizes. This went on for 20 years. Last year, thanks to my best buddy Google, I began my education. Now I eat better, consider it a lifestyle change not a diet. I exercise, which I really never did before. And I realise my focus is no longer losing weight, but trading body fat for muscle. And this is where I have stalled. In fact looking at my pictures, I think I looked better before Christmas than I do now. I really need some help to get this next step right.

I am very grateful that you give up your time to help out people like me

Thankyou :-)

SideSteel

Tagging.

Sarauk2sf

Hi! I/we will get to the rest later - but I thought I would address some of your questions/comments now:

I have programme change every 6 weeks,

Why are you changing your routine every 6 weeks?

I am not sure if my technique is correct, only a couple of times has someone come and corrected my form.

If you want to video your lifts we can give input in this thread: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1146855-form-critique-thread-post-your-videos-here

I sometimes feel I have put in a lot of effort, but have no soreness or aches the next day.

DOMS/soreness is not an indication of a good or bad workout.

I don't feel I need recovery days, but I do have them. In the beginning I was going almost every day, because I get a bit obsessive about things. Currently I go about 8 x a fortnight.

Not having rest days can creep up on you, so its a good idea to have them. However, if you do not feel you need them, then you are possibly not progressively loading effectively. How do you progressively load in your current routine (add weight/reps)?

jackielou867

Well, as I said, I am a bit naïve, so when I joined the gym they said I could get a re evaluation every 6 weeks, so that's what I have been doing. But every time I seemed to have changed my mind on my goals, from losing weight, to losing fat, to building muscle, so to be fair I have had all different sorts of programmes. Now I read recently about progressive loading being enough of a change, I hadn't come across the term before. And I know now that I want to lift heavy and lean bulk, which will be slower but I wont have to worry about food so much.

I will try to get hubby to video some lifts, though to be honest he thinks I am a bit of a fruit loop right now for wanting to lift heavy!

I am glad about the soreness thing, I guess I was just bought up with that old fashioned saying, no pain, no gain.

So I just really read about progressive loading. Before I was just doing my lifts for 6 weeks and not really altering them much. During the last 6 weeks, my programme called for 4 sets of 10 reps, so what I have done, is when I can do this without breaking a sweat, I increase the weight a little, and maybe I can only do 6 or 8 reps, so I do this until I can get back up to 10 reps, then I will increase the weight again.

So today, leg day,
BB squat 10 x 4 x 35 has become 6 x 4 x 40kg
45 plate press 10 x 4 x 120 became 6 x 4 x 140
leg extension (machine) 10 x 4 x 52 has gone
Romanian deadlift 10 x 4 x 50 ( last week I tried 5 x 5 x 60) became deadlift 6 x 4 x 60
leg curls 10 x 4 x 32 ( will try 39 this week) has gone
I have added some good mornings 6 x 4 x 30kg
calf press on the 45 degree machine, 20 x 2 120kg became 10 x 4 x 140kg

I am hoping this is the right way to go about it, but I am completely open to your advice and suggestions. I am done fooling around now and I want to make some progress.

Is it better to concentrate on the more compound lifts
And one final question, at the gym they are telling me to do a deadlift without putting the bar down, so just lowering it to below the knees, but I thought this was a Romanian deadlift, I am confused. Which is the best way? Also with the deadlift this way, I find what stops me progressing further is weakness in my grip/wrist rather than arms/back/legs, so on the last set I actually did put it down after 4 and pick it back up for 2 more, as it was slipping out of my hands.any tips to help with this?

Gosh I do seem to have a lot of questions, sorry. I have been lurking and reading your posts for a while, now I finally am brave enough to ask for help I cant seem to stop! Sorry.

SideSteel

So today, leg day,
BB squat 10 x 4 x 35 has become 6 x 4 x 40kg
45 plate press 10 x 4 x 120 became 6 x 4 x 140
leg extension (machine) 10 x 4 x 52 has gone
Romanian deadlift 10 x 4 x 50 ( last week I tried 5 x 5 x 60) became deadlift 6 x 4 x 60
leg curls 10 x 4 x 32 ( will try 39 this week) has gone
I have added some good mornings 6 x 4 x 30kg
calf press on the 45 degree machine, 20 x 2 120kg became 10 x 4 x 140kg

I am hoping this is the right way to go about it, but I am completely open to your advice and suggestions. I am done fooling around now and I want to make some progress.

It's difficult to look at a snapshot of your training without seeing the entire program, before we can make changes and/or suggestions. Eyeballing it I would question the need for this much volume but again, this really depends on what the frequency and relative intensity is.

You may want to look at some of the popular and well regarded programs that are online, and compare them to what you're doing if you are questioning the programming that your trainer is putting you on.

Is it better to concentrate on the more compound lifts

Depends on the goal and situation but generally speaking yes. Compound lifts are going to be more efficient. A good general guideline (once again, dependent on an individual's goals and circumstances) may be to hit the big compound movements first and round out the program with accessory movements for performance and/or isolation movements for specific body parts.

And one final question, at the gym they are telling me to do a deadlift without putting the bar down, so just lowering it to below the knees, but I thought this was a Romanian deadlift, I am confused. Which is the best way?

Why are they telling you to do this, and what is your goal? What is "best" is dependent on a number of circumstances.

Also with the deadlift this way, I find what stops me progressing further is weakness in my grip/wrist rather than arms/back/legs, so on the last set I actually did put it down after 4 and pick it back up for 2 more, as it was slipping out of my hands.any tips to help with this?

Since it sounds like it was slipping I'd see if you can use chalk. Alternatively you can mix your grip (one hand over, one under). Alternatively you could look into using straps, although if you go this route you may want to have some method of increasing grip strength as you get stronger in the deadlift.

Gosh I do seem to have a lot of questions, sorry. I have been lurking and reading your posts for a while, now I finally am brave enough to ask for help I cant seem to stop! Sorry.

That's what we are here for

No need to apologize.

jackielou867

Ok goal is general leaning out. I have lost weight but still carry too much fat around tummy. I know I cant spot reduce, and I know it will take time, but I want abs. Correction, I'm fairly sure I have abs now, but I want to see them. Arms and legs I am quite happy with the way they are coming on, although I feel I can still increase strength, and I could cope with a little more size, but that's not main focus.
I have seen my trainer last week and we have agreed to increase weights and drop reps. Also we changed to a 3 day split as I felt compelled to do my 4 days every week and I seen to take a long time getting through the programme. My aim is to now go 3 days a week.

Day 2 looks like this
Back and biceps
assisted chins. today with 25kg weight 5 reps x 4 sets. Last week was with 32kg 8 x 4
b/b b/over row 8 x 4 a 25kg. will try 30kg next week
V lat pull 8 x 4 x 39kg
low cable curl 8 x 4 x 32kg. Will try 36kg next week
Preacher curl. First time at this, I used the ez bar with 7.5kg added not sure what bar weighs.
Reverse curl. 6 x 4 x 15kg. Not too taxing so will try 8 x 4 x 15, next week and If I do ok increase weight following week.
20 min cardio to finish

day 3
chest shoulder triceps
Olympic press 6 x 4 x 30
incline press D/B 8 x 4 with 2 x 10kg will try 12.5kg next week
B/B O/H press 6 x 4 x 20kg
B/B upright row 6 x 4 x 20kg
tricep extension 8 x 4 x 16
20 min cardio too finish

I forgot to add on previous post leg day now includes abs incline sit ups/side raises and planks.


when you say too much volume, is that reps/sets or just the quantity of exercises?
my aim is 6-8 reps 4 sets, and when I can do the 8 with out struggling the last couple I increase the weight. I do seem to spend a lot of time in the gym doing these programmes.

What programmes would you suggest. I can find a lot of programmes online, but I never know which are the good ones. I did like the look of stronglifts 5x5.

After this month I may have to quit the gym due to finances, and I would like to find a programme I can follow myself.

About the deadlift I am not sure why they tell me to do them this way, although when I first joined I was a bit wary about my back as I had previously had pain caused by bulging discs. We were working on strengthening it.
I looked at the mixed grip, that sounds like I should try it, and I will do some wrist exercises as well.

My other main issue is food. How much should I eat. For maintenance I use MFP suggestion, set to sedentary, which my job mostly is. I wear a fit bit which syncs and adds extra depending how active I am during the day. I don't add any extra for my gym days like I used to. I just used the scales at the gym, that have me at 26% body fat.
I want to lose a little fat and gain a little muscle. I have read posts which say you cant do both, and I have read posts which say you can, albeit slowly. I have added a couple of kilos since Christmas.
Would you suggest I eat a little over and keep working on muscle gains, or eat a little less to strip fat. I have no idea how fast I should gain or lose, or how to tell if gains are muscle or losses are fat.

jackielou867

Well I have tried maintenance calories minus about 1000 a week for 3 weeks. There seems to be little change, I try to only weigh once a week as I was getting a bit obsessive. I have scales that measure body fat, only cheap and probably not too accurate. When I use them they vary between 25%-26% BF and will not budge below.

I am continuing on with the same weight programme, making tiny increases in reps or weight each session. Actually I am quite pleased with my progress strength wise.

I am still stumped as to how to shift some body fat. I am keen to do another bulking phase soon, but I read some of the articles you linked, which suggest I should reduce the body fat% a bit more before I bulk.

One thing I am not doing is the cardio at the end of a weight session. I am in there about 90 minutes after work and I really don't have time for cardio, unless I don't want to see my family before bed. Would you advise I get in there on rest days and do some HIIT? Or I could use the elliptical at home. My cardio at the moment is daily 2 x 30 minutes walks with the dogs.

Thanks for the grip tip on the deadlift. I am now up to 60kg almost down to the floor, tapping the legs of the frame.

My diary is open if you want to check food intake. Mostly fresh and healthy, but I am not averse to a splurge now and then, or the odd piece of cake.

SideSteel

Sorry we didn't get back to this, I'll put this on the "short list" and Sara and I will discuss your thread next time we chat.

jackielou867

Thanks for that. In the meantime if you need any specific information let me know. I weighed in this am at 62.5kg and 27% BF. That's the highest its been since I crashed off the final 2 kilos last year. Feeling quite deflated at the moment :-(

SideSteel

When we look at your average intake over the past 3.5 weeks or so we show an average logged intake of:

2070 calories (200/70/140).


We would like you to set your daily intake as follows:

1800 calories
170 carbs
65 fat
130 protein

Follow up with us in 1 week, and you do not eat back exercise calories on this method.

Regarding programming, we don't tend to do full program overhauls anymore but generally speaking if you're not training on consecutive days and you're lifting 3 days /week, a full body program may be beneficial over a body part split and you should be training in a manner such that you're adding weight to the barbell over time (getting stronger).

You do not need to switch your training program every X weeks based on the calendar. You make changes based on need and results or lack thereof. So for example if someone is on a program and they are continually making progress (lifts are increasing) and volume/intensity is adequate, then there's no immediate need to make a change just for the sake of change.

jackielou867

Just read your reply. Thanks. I will start with the food plan tomorrow. Since the current programme is going quite well and I am making small increases quite consistently I will stick with it and see how I go.
My exercise will be 3 x 1 hour weights per week.
2 x 30 minute dog walling per day.
My job is fairly sedentary. Is this enough or should I add a little more cardio?

jackielou867

OK 3 weeks in. From 8th May. calories eaten, net, fat/carbs/protein

1877 1475 66/177/132
1877 1481 69/168/136
1846 1544 62/192/135
2266 1887 105/204/123
1836 1483 57/192/138
2120 1630 96/174/136
1789 1347 66/151/142
1874 1308 72/145/142
2955 2624 107/276/139
2350 1950 94/233/138
2037 1569 68/215/127
1967 1417 78/155/154
1697 1387 63/134/142
1755 1250 63/142/139
2043 1569 60/199/174
1757 1448 72/130/139
2111 1101 67/191/172
1974 1598 59/180/157

So I seemed to start off well, then went a bit off the rails, ate some cake, Not sure why I don't really like it that much any more, had a huge ice cream too, but one carb overload just seems to lead to another.

Got back on track I think this week though. Although I cheated a bit by having a very similar menu most of the week, so getting the figures was easier.

I was still doing a strength programme and making some teeny tiny progressions still, maybe that's why I was going too heavy on the carbs, or maybe its because I was, not sure about that?
I have this week decreased weights slightly and increased reps. I want to be more cardio based as I am going away for a few weeks and not sure how well I can stick to the eating plan. I really am going to give it a try, but I will be visiting friends and family I have not seen for 4 years. It has taken a year for friends and family in Australia to accept my new approach to health fitness and eating. Now I have to go through it all again with the English side.

I am feeling pretty good on the whole, but I forgot to weigh in this morning so I will let you know tomorrow if there has been any positive result so far. I actually put the scales away as I did not want to be hopping on there every day.

One thing I did find, with not eating back the exercise calories, is that when fit-bit adds calories at the end of the day, and I am not rushing to the kitchen for a spoon of peanut butter/ice cream, or in other words, eating lots of carbs in the evening, in fact on a good day I have cut out eating after 8pm.

I can see how this should work better for me in the long run, but it is a bit of a challenge at the moment, balancing the macros. I will get the hang of it though :-)

jackielou867

Quick update. Weighed in this morning, 61 kg 25.5% bf so basically right back where I was 6 months ago. Not sure what to do next?

SideSteel

When I average out your intake in that time frame that you posted I come up with the following averages:

2008.444444 181.7777778 72.72222222 143.0555556

The original recommended intake was

1800 calories
170 carbs
65 fat
130 protein

This is a complex issue of sorts because we could come back with "go back to the recommendations we made and stick to it" but just saying "stick to it" doesn't mean you're going to be able to stick to it.

Hopefully I'm clear with this reponse, it's not intended to be rude by any stretch. A point of discussion if anything.

So do you think it's hunger that is driving your intake above your goal? Do you think it's lack of application? Do you think it's making poor food choices?

These are things to think about.

The weight piece is relatively simple (you don't appear to be in a calorie deficit). The behavioral piece is not.