Macro Troubleshooting
Tanukiko
Posts: 186 Member
I'm new to keto (former low carber who found it made me hungry due to lean meat advice...never again!). I'm almost a week in and loving it so far.
Anyway I am having zero trouble keeping my carbs down...but I'm having trouble getting over 60% fat. Its like the protein just creeps in there. Thankfully my test strips are still showing consisten ketosis.
I guess I"m curious how you more experienced Ketoers got your macros under control.
I guess my question is if at the end of the day my macros are 6%/55% protein/55% fat and I still have a large calorie deficit do I eat a spoonful of butter to bump the fat up or just call it a day?
Thanks!
Anyway I am having zero trouble keeping my carbs down...but I'm having trouble getting over 60% fat. Its like the protein just creeps in there. Thankfully my test strips are still showing consisten ketosis.
I guess I"m curious how you more experienced Ketoers got your macros under control.
I guess my question is if at the end of the day my macros are 6%/55% protein/55% fat and I still have a large calorie deficit do I eat a spoonful of butter to bump the fat up or just call it a day?
Thanks!
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Replies
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I'm new to keto (former low carber who found it made me hungry due to lean meat advice...never again!). I'm almost a week in and loving it so far.
Anyway I am having zero trouble keeping my carbs down...but I'm having trouble getting over 60% fat. Its like the protein just creeps in there. Thankfully my test strips are still showing consisten ketosis.
I guess I"m curious how you more experienced Ketoers got your macros under control.
I guess my question is if at the end of the day my macros are 6%/55% protein/55% fat and I still have a large calorie deficit do I eat a spoonful of butter to bump the fat up or just call it a day?
Thanks!
I know what you mean, I recently bumped up my protein percentage to meet my 1 g/lb lbm mark and now I'm at:
7% carb
40% prot
53% fat
I look at it this way: Keto really only looks like a high fat diet because at maintenance levels fat is much higher than the other macros, but it's not *intrinsically* high fat. That appearance is just a function of fat being all there is to fill the calories once carb and protein macros goals are achieved for the day.
So I don't worry about my percentages, I worry about hitting the appropriate amount of carbs, the appropriate amount of protein, and then filling the rest of my calories with fat.
EDIT: If you're not hitting your calorie goal, eat the extra fat, but I prefer heavy cream with Splenda or a fat bomb over a spoonful of butter, personally.0 -
Wow Skoster1! You are doing great. What an achievement! I think I'm getting better at the macros. I just make a point of adding fat to each meal and i seem to be getting a more favorable 5/30/65 split
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I know what you mean, I recently bumped up my protein percentage to meet my 1 g/lb lbm mark and now I'm at:
7% carb
40% prot
53% fat
I look at it this way: Keto really only looks like a high fat diet because at maintenance levels fat is much higher than the other macros, but it's not *intrinsically* high fat. That appearance is just a function of fat being all there is to fill the calories once carb and protein macros goals are achieved for the day.
You're correct, although there's a bit more going on. Traditionally a ketogenic diet is one that has a ketogenic/anti-ketogenic ratio of 1.5 or higher. This would be a ratio of 1.21, IF YOU WERE AT MAINTENANCE. That last part is key. If you're actually eating 1,800 calories and have a deficit of 750 calories... there's an additional 83g of fat in your diet each day. You're just not eating it. It's coming from your body. That would be a 67/28/5 macro split and a ratio of 1.63.
Technically, the closer you eat towards your maintenance calories, the more you need to be aware of having too much excess protein.
If you're losing weight, you're getting extra calories from fat. So, you don't necessarily need to worry if your food intake percentages seem too high on the protein end. Just mind that you don't go too overboard (where your protein would be more calories than your fat even if you ate to maintenance). In practice, it's hard to get that high. For me, it would be around 300g of protein a day. That's almost three times the amount I generally aim for.
Also, if you're constantly high and find that you have trouble getting in (or staying in ketosis), you may be more sensitive to excess protein and want to cut back on it. It's not unheard of, people say it happens to them, but it's not something I stress too much about. I've had days where I've been up to 200g of protein (way high) and not been knocked out.0 -
Frob23, can you explain what is the ketogenic ratio? I'm not familiar.0
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The ketogenic ratio is a mathematical way to calculate the effectiveness of certain macro combinations, especially useful when dealing with treating epilepsy because being kicked out of keto has much more drastic consequences for those children then for dieters. For a macro intake to be considered ketogenic, the ratio must be 1.5 or higher. Often, to err on the side of safety, they went much higher (often near around 4). But, for our purposes, anything over 1.5 is good enough.
The ratio describes how the 3 macro nutrients encourage or discourage keto. Carbs are 100% anti-ketogenic. That is, every gram of carbs directly contributes to blood glucose. Fat is 90% ketogenic and 10% anti-ketogenic (the 10% apparently comes from the glycerol portion of triglycerides). Protein is 46% keto and 58% anti-keto (yeah, I know they don't add up to 100%... it's not a typo). This makes protein lightly anti-ketogenic.
If you take your macros by weight and put them into the following formula:
(0.9*fat + 0.46*protein) / (carbs + 0.1*fat + 0.58*protein)
You will get the ratio for a certain day's intake. You still have to keep carbs low. You can't just load up on 500g of fat after eating a bunch of carbs and stay in keto. But, if you tried to do 80% protein / 15% fat / 5% carbs, you would not be eating a ketogenic diet (0.82 ratio) -- even though it is still low carb.
When losing weight, we can't always strictly abide by this ratio to decide our intake because it would often drive us to bring our protein way too low if we want a deficit. This is especially true in the early stages when your body is adopting and you need extra protein (Lyle McDonald recommends around 150g/day to avoid muscle loss). But, we are able to still remain in keto (despite having a ratio below 1.5) simply because we are losing weight and that means we have extra fat in our diet that we don't have to physically eat.0 -
To simplify, its not so much about ratios but total amount of protein you eat in a day while keeping carbs low and fats high, Unless you have super genes, if you cross 120-140 protein g, you will most likely be kicked out of ketosis. The best way for you is to experiment and test with the blood strips, urine strips are useless. If you are eating real foods with good fats, its hard to go over protein limit. I usually go by the recommendation of 1 gm protein per Kg of total weight. I personally don't have problem gaining muscle mass or building muscles by staying with 80-100 g of protein per day. Also remember, you gain muscle mass with strength/resistance training not by eating ton of protein. However, every one is different and you should try yourself, test it and see what works for you.0
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Hmm, I'm well to the top of that range, depending on the day, and I never get kicked out. I doubt I have super genes! ;-)0
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I find it trivially easy to eat over 120-140g of protein a day. Heck, I've averaged almost 130g/day just since Jan 1st, and there are times I have been way over. I've never been kicked out. That said, I have also had a couple days when my ketogenic ratio would be under 1.5 (even accounting for body fat burned to make up TDEE shortage), and not been kicked out either. One day, where I managed to go both (266g of protein and an adjusted ratio of 1.37--unadjusted 1.3), I still didn't get kicked out.
Granted, I'm not testing with blood. Still, the consistency where it shows up in my urine makes me confident there have been no lapses.
This week, I am trying to get and keep my ratio as close to 2.5 as possible (80 / 18 / 2 macros)... just to see if there's a noticeable difference or not. My average for the first 100 days this year was 1.78 (69 / 27.5 / 3.5, so it's only a slight increase in fat and decrease in protein from where I am at already).0 -
If you are not testing with blood, its a moot point. You are in ketosis if BHB blood levels show > 0.5. milli molar. My wife who doesn't even do low carb, let alone a keto diet shows positive on the urine strips. One can get 90% of the benefits of ketogenic diet with out being in Ketosis and its not necessary to be in ketosis. However, if you are not testing, you can't say I am not kicked out. If you are indeed in ketosis with 200 gm of protein, you should write to guys like Dr Phinny and Dr Volek. They would love to hear about it and may be find something which has been missing so far.0
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Hmm, I'm well to the top of that range, depending on the day, and I never get kicked out. I doubt I have super genes! ;-)
Do you test with blood strips?0 -
I'm really curious about the blood meter now. I'll have to do a little research to find a good one. I don't want to spend a small fortune on it.
I think its interesting how all of us respond differently to different levels of protein. Personally I have noticed that I feel more satiated with protein on the lower end. Hunger starts to creep in when protein is around 50% of calories. Its a good thing I really like butter 0 -
Get your free meter here, select precision extra ketone+glucose monitor.
https://www.choosefreestyle.com
But test strips are expensive, I order mine from Canada, universal drugstore. It will cost you $2 per strip. I use them when I experiment with a new food, macro changes or work out changes.0 -
Bump0
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If I was kicked out, the effect was unnoticeable and I was back in quickly enough that it's pointless to worry about. I obviously don't eat that much protein every day.
I don't think I can afford to spend money on the blood test strips right now. It's really not that critical to me. I maintain a proper ratio (most of the time) and keep my carbs under 20-25g a day. The odds that I am not in keto the vast majority of the time are pretty low. I am interested in pushing myself a bit deeper into it, but I think that aiming to increase the ratio will be the only side of it I measure at the moment. In the future, I may invest in a meter with test strips.0 -
If I was kicked out, the effect was unnoticeable and I was back in quickly enough that it's pointless to worry about. I obviously don't eat that much protein every day.
I don't think I can afford to spend money on the blood test strips right now. It's really not that critical to me. I maintain a proper ratio (most of the time) and keep my carbs under 20-25g a day. The odds that I am not in keto the vast majority of the time are pretty low. I am interested in pushing myself a bit deeper into it, but I think that aiming to increase the ratio will be the only side of it I measure at the moment. In the future, I may invest in a meter with test strips.
I understand what you are saying esp, if you have been doing it for long time. But for a beginner, it might be harder to get back in to ketosis or slow down getting adapted. Protein is an insulogenic, which means lots of it will rise the insulin levels. When insulin goes up, ketones will most likely fall below the 0.5 milli molar threshold, unless some one has done a multi hour long work out. Its important that every one know what their daily limits through their own experimentation. Rule of thumb for most people is you hit 120-150, you will most probably be kicked out. Now getting benefits staying outside ketosis is a whole different topic.0 -
Yeah, I've been doing this for 182 days now, with very few days where my ratio was even close to being under 1.5. And, most days, I am right around 100-120g of protein (the reason my average is higher is because of the rare super-heavy protein days).
I was very strict near the start. These days, I don't worry too much.
Actually, I am going to be worrying about it a little more than usual due to my desire to test if there are beneficial effects of getting deeper into it. I'm doing at least two weeks where I aim to keep my protein under 80g, my carbs as much below 20g as possible, and my fat at 80% [178g] (which puts me at about 2,000 calories a day). I'll still be at a deficit, but my macros will be more ketogenic. I am going to do it for a least a couple weeks and see if I notice and difference. I am not sure if I will. But, I do suspect that I am in a low-grade keto state most of the time, not an optimal one.0 -
Hmm, I'm well to the top of that range, depending on the day, and I never get kicked out. I doubt I have super genes! ;-)
Do you test with blood strips?
No, though I read that false negatives on Kettostix are quite rare outside of highly concentrated urine, drug and chemical interactions:
http://www.aacc.org/members/nacb/LMPG/OnlineGuide/PublishedGuidelines/diabetes_update/Documents/Chapter 8.pdf
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=Uu7BtlkzUSYC&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=how+common+are+false+positive+urine+ketones&source=bl&ots=dLOCXNEBx4&sig=xSgm0oLs9bEqT5tkM386J9V2KkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D59NU9ehJ4Wi8AWJk4GIDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=how common are false positive urine ketones&f=false
Now I'm concerned, though.
The problem is to support my estimated ~138 lbs LBM (198lbs and estimated 30% body fat) with 1 gm/lb LBM I need 138g protein. My understanding is that if I'm weight training I need to hit that 1 gm/lb LBM or higher.
Do you have a source citation for the 120 - 140g protein numbers I can read, by any chance?0 -
Also, in an effort to make a full disclosure, those days when I even approach 200g, I was eating out and unable to measure or prepare my own food. So, all my estimates are intentionally high. I'd much rather over-estimate carbs/protein than under-estimate them and be wrong. I've certainly been near or over 200g, but possibly not as high as my records show.
At the start, Lyle McDonald recommends 150g protein (offset by however many carbs you eat). He believes the research supports that level being necessary to avoid muscle loss until you fully adapt. After that, you can reduce the protein.
Skoster1, I don't know that it's 1g per pound. It is closer to a MAX of 0.9g per pound. It's more like 0.6g a pound recommended. So between 83g and 124g a day is more appropriate for you. Also, keep in mind that the higher amounts are intended for people who are really athletic and pushing themselves. If you're not exercising a lot, you probably would be better off sticking to the lower end of the scale.0 -
Thank you for such a good discussion. I have a really hard time getting my protein, do you have any secrets, frob23?0
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How do I get my protein? Meat.
Generally, my meals revolve around a fatty cut of meat, or a meat with extra fat added (cheese, cream, grease).
If you're on my friend list, my diary is open to friends. If not, send me a request and I will add you. I'm not the best example in the world, you may not want to eat the way I do, but it may give you some ideas.0 -
I'm having trouble getting the fat percentage high enough without busting over my calories. I originally tried to stay around 1500 cals, but was getting too much protein. Now I've increased my fat percentage to try and break a plateau, but it's increasing the calories. I'm going to leave it the way it is for now as I'm still under my base metabolic rate. If it works, I won't cry over it. I just feel weird eating higher calories. It's a battle of metrics vs bulk -- my stomach is still stretched from overeating so much in the past and it feels somewhat hollow to eat so little for meals sometimes. I should adjust, but it's uncomfortable for now. Go water! lol0
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Skoster1, I don't know that it's 1g per pound. It is closer to a MAX of 0.9g per pound. It's more like 0.6g a pound recommended. So between 83g and 124g a day is more appropriate for you. Also, keep in mind that the higher amounts are intended for people who are really athletic and pushing themselves. If you're not exercising a lot, you probably would be better off sticking to the lower end of the scale.
Do you have a source for that?
Reddit's ketogain FAQ lists:
Sedentary people: 0.8g per lean pound
Mildly active or doing endurance / strength training: 0.8 to 1.0g per lean pound
Heavy strength training / bodybuilders: 1.0 up to 1.2g per lean pound
I'm currently doing 2 days per week of 5 sets of 5 reps @ 5RM and I just started 3 days per week of running (C25K). I guess I could drop down to .8, but from everything I've read I should not at all drop below .8g/lb LBM, and to have enough protein to feed the muscles I should be around 1g/lb LBM.0 -
Protein sources off the top of my head.
http://aaron.emascc.com/diet/ebooks/Lyle_McDonald_-_The_Ketogenic_Diet.pdf [Starting on page 106] In particular, tables 2 and 3 along with the discussion between them.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1v148f/keto_calculator_update_lowered_upper_protein_level/ [Where the author of the keto calculator goes into detail as to why he lowered the recommendations for protein... the discussion below is interesting. He later upped the values slightly due to some people complaining, but the max he currently has is 1g/lb].
Each of those also has links to other studies and sites (the keto-calculator itself has links to books and stuff right above the protein selection boxes if you expand it).
I suspect the 1.2 g/lb recommendation was probably set from the old keto calculator goals. It was what he had for a long time, until he lowered it about 3 months ago. Ketogains also gets into a lot of very specific things that may or may not apply to your level of performance (CKD or TKD). The super-high protein might be one of those things that only applies to the highest end of their base of subscribers (although I suspect it's a remnant more than anything else).0 -
Protein sources off the top of my head.
http://aaron.emascc.com/diet/ebooks/Lyle_McDonald_-_The_Ketogenic_Diet.pdf [Starting on page 106] In particular, tables 2 and 3 along with the discussion between them.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1v148f/keto_calculator_update_lowered_upper_protein_level/ [Where the author of the keto calculator goes into detail as to why he lowered the recommendations for protein... the discussion below is interesting. He later upped the values slightly due to some people complaining, but the max he currently has is 1g/lb].
Each of those also has links to other studies and sites (the keto-calculator itself has links to books and stuff right above the protein selection boxes if you expand it).
I suspect the 1.2 g/lb recommendation was probably set from the old keto calculator goals. It was what he had for a long time, until he lowered it about 3 months ago. Ketogains also gets into a lot of very specific things that may or may not apply to your level of performance (CKD or TKD). The super-high protein might be one of those things that only applies to the highest end of their base of subscribers (although I suspect it's a remnant more than anything else).
Much appreciated, I'll work through those!0 -
No worries. I will also state that the first link supports the 1 g/lb a day level. I included it because I am all about transparency. If I know of a resource, even if it contradicts my current opinion, I'm not going to hide it. In the discussion between the two tables, though, the author says to start with 1 g/lb per pound but then subtract a certain number of grams based on how many grams of carbs you also consume. So, you end up with slightly less than 1 g/lb... but not a whole lot less.
If you read that whole chapter, as well as the other chapters about protein and muscle loss, you'll find that Lyle McDonald tends to be pretty conservative on his recommendations (in the sense that he'd more likely encourage people to stay towards the higher end of the spectrum than the lower end) for protein.
There are more resources out there. Those are just the ones I was able to recall and google quickly this morning. There's a significant amount of debate as to appropriate levels required. I don't know that I can confidently say you're doing anything wrong by eating 1 g/lb a day. If your body reacts well to that amount, who am I to say change it. Personally, I'm all over the place when it comes to the consumption with little recognizable impact. I'll probably post in a couple weeks to reflect on whether or not keeping protein intentionally low (1.3 g/kg -- 0.6 g/lb) shows any significant improvement in my experience.0 -
Hmm, I'm well to the top of that range, depending on the day, and I never get kicked out. I doubt I have super genes! ;-)
Do you test with blood strips?
No, though I read that false negatives on Kettostix are quite rare outside of highly concentrated urine, drug and chemical interactions:
http://www.aacc.org/members/nacb/LMPG/OnlineGuide/PublishedGuidelines/diabetes_update/Documents/Chapter 8.pdf
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=Uu7BtlkzUSYC&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=how+common+are+false+positive+urine+ketones&source=bl&ots=dLOCXNEBx4&sig=xSgm0oLs9bEqT5tkM386J9V2KkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D59NU9ehJ4Wi8AWJk4GIDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=how common are false positive urine ketones&f=false
Now I'm concerned, though.
The problem is to support my estimated ~138 lbs LBM (198lbs and estimated 30% body fat) with 1 gm/lb LBM I need 138g protein. My understanding is that if I'm weight training I need to hit that 1 gm/lb LBM or higher.
Do you have a source citation for the 120 - 140g protein numbers I can read, by any chance?
Its usually the number which Drs like Phinny, Volek and others talk about in their books or talks as guideline. Now it also depends on how much you exercise and when you consume the protein. You should get a meter and do n=1 experiment, you don't need to test every day. I follow the rule of 1g of protein for 1 Kg of weight, it works great for me. I get tested by a guy who trains pro athletes and he personally thinks people consume way more protein then they should. Like I said, just figure it out yourself, these numbers are guidelines and you need to figure out where you fit.0 -
Hmm, I'm well to the top of that range, depending on the day, and I never get kicked out. I doubt I have super genes! ;-)
Do you test with blood strips?
No, though I read that false negatives on Kettostix are quite rare outside of highly concentrated urine, drug and chemical interactions:
http://www.aacc.org/members/nacb/LMPG/OnlineGuide/PublishedGuidelines/diabetes_update/Documents/Chapter 8.pdf
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=Uu7BtlkzUSYC&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=how+common+are+false+positive+urine+ketones&source=bl&ots=dLOCXNEBx4&sig=xSgm0oLs9bEqT5tkM386J9V2KkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D59NU9ehJ4Wi8AWJk4GIDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=how common are false positive urine ketones&f=false
Now I'm concerned, though.
The problem is to support my estimated ~138 lbs LBM (198lbs and estimated 30% body fat) with 1 gm/lb LBM I need 138g protein. My understanding is that if I'm weight training I need to hit that 1 gm/lb LBM or higher.
Do you have a source citation for the 120 - 140g protein numbers I can read, by any chance?
Its usually the number which Drs like Phinny, Volek and others talk about in their books or talks as guideline. Now it also depends on how much you exercise and when you consume the protein. You should get a meter and do n=1 experiment, you don't need to test every day. I follow the rule of 1g of protein for 1 Kg of weight, it works great for me. I get tested by a guy who trains pro athletes and he personally thinks people consume way more protein then they should. Like I said, just figure it out yourself, these numbers are guidelines and you need to figure out where you fit.
Thanks, I have the meter but I'm waiting on test strips. Unfortunately things can sometimes take a long time to get to my APO box over here, and apparently ketone test strips are one of those things.
I'm virtually positive I wasn't out of ketosis on mid to upper 130s since I was still popping awake after 6-7 hours of sleep (without keto I'm a horrible morning person regardless of how long I sleep), focused at work, peeing like a racehorse, and interested in exercise.0 -
I never reach my fat goal. Always hard to find stuff to eat to meet that macro. Just worry about meeting my protein and carb goals daily.0
