KETO PLATEAU/EXPERIENCE WITH FAT FAST ANYONE?

itsolyo

XPOST---didn't even know MFP had groups!!!

Has anyone here doing keto been successful with fat fasting? How often do you fat fast? What are some recipes you've used? I've been in ketosis since 10/2013 and have hit a serious plateau here. Looking for something to kick my body back into a fat burning machine! How have you been able to get through your weight loss plateaus? I've tried intensifying my work outs and reducing my calories even more but it's not working. (Currently at 1200 calories with macros of 65/30/5 and eating back calories from work outs)

What are some of your suggestions? I'm scared to stop keto because I've been successful thus far and anytime I cheat I baloon up...def don't want to get back to my start weight.

Help...

Booksandbeaches

Fat fast is meant for people who aren't losing weight on ketosis. It's for the more metabolically challenged people, not just slower losers. It's not meant to be done long-term since you're eating so little protein. Dana Carpender has a book called Fat Fast. I think she has a blog too, so you can Google the recipes. Basically you eat 1,000 calories and nearly all of it from fat.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

The lesser you eat the slower your metabolism will get. Increase the cals, are you getting your body fat tested? Also get your RMR tested and see what percentile your metabolism falls under.

LatinaGordita

I was on a 7 week stall that I just broke out of last week 4lbs, and this week another 2 lbs.

I aim closer to 75-80% fat, 15-20% protein and 3-5% carbs.

I started exercising and I drink anywhere from 12 to 18 servings of 8oz water. I do not eat my exercise cals back.

My cals are set at 1500, however some days I go higher and some days its lower. I follow my body cues and do not eat if I am not hungry.

I added BPC to my morning ritual which keeps me satisfied until 2ish, which is when I am hungry for lunch. Lunch is my heaviest meal. I'll have a keto bomb before exercise and if I'm hungry eat something light for dinner.

Now that I look at my stall it was due to my heavier intake of protein (having protein at each meal), not measuring my protein correctly, and my water intake was at the bare minimum.

I never tried a fat fast, but was close to trying it. I did try iF which worked for 1 week but then had the weight back on by the end of the weekend.

arispenser

Fat fast is meant for people who aren't losing weight on ketosis. It's for the more metabolically challenged people, not just slower losers. It's not meant to be done long-term since you're eating so little protein. Dana Carpender has a book called Fat Fast. I think she has a blog too, so you can Google the recipes. Basically you eat 1,000 calories and nearly all of it from fat.

I found this..... http://holdthetoast.com/content/so-what-happened-me

where she talks about her fat fast. She says that for 6 days she ate 1000 calories, 85% or so from fat, and that she lost 6 pounds. I'm not convinced she wasn't losing muscle mass, not fat.


She writes "My best guess is that it's the fact that I'm eating considerably less protein than I formerly have - apparently my body is really good at converting protein into sugar. "

Dr. Donald Layman gave an interesting interview on the topic of low carb diets and maintaining muscle mass. He recommends a minimum of 30 grams of protein per meal.

Here is the interview

http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012/08/24-all-things-protein-protein-101-dr-donald-layman/

"Do you struggle with how much protein is right for you? More? Less? Well here’s your chance to ask THE protein aficionado himself. We are thrilled to have Dr. Donald Layman with us to discuss what role protein can and should play within the context of a low-carbohydrate diet. He is a professor of nutrition in the Department of Food Science & Human Nutrition at the College of Agricultural, Consumer and Environmental Sciences in Urbana, Illinois. He is one of the foremost experts in the world on the subject of protein and has been studying the effects of proteins and amino acids to determine their effect on exercise performance as well as the role they play in overall health for decades."

Tanukiko

Fat fast is meant for people who aren't losing weight on ketosis. It's for the more metabolically challenged people, not just slower losers. It's not meant to be done long-term since you're eating so little protein. Dana Carpender has a book called Fat Fast. I think she has a blog too, so you can Google the recipes. Basically you eat 1,000 calories and nearly all of it from fat.

I found this..... http://holdthetoast.com/content/so-what-happened-me

where she talks about her fat fast. She says that for 6 days she ate 1000 calories, 85% or so from fat, and that she lost 6 pounds. I'm not convinced she wasn't losing muscle mass, not fat.


She writes "My best guess is that it's the fact that I'm eating considerably less protein than I formerly have - apparently my body is really good at converting protein into sugar. "

Dr. Donald Layman gave an interesting interview on the topic of low carb diets and maintaining muscle mass. He recommends a minimum of 30 grams of protein per meal.

Here is the interview

http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012/08/24-all-things-protein-protein-101-dr-donald-layman/

"Do you struggle with how much protein is right for you? More? Less? Well here’s your chance to ask THE protein aficionado himself. We are thrilled to have Dr. Donald Layman with us to discuss what role protein can and should play within the context of a low-carbohydrate diet. He is a professor of nutrition in the Department of Food Science & Human Nutrition at the College of Agricultural, Consumer and Environmental Sciences in Urbana, Illinois. He is one of the foremost experts in the world on the subject of protein and has been studying the effects of proteins and amino acids to determine their effect on exercise performance as well as the role they play in overall health for decades."

If the body is keto-adapted then muscle loss due to lack of protein intake should not be an issue (Source Gary Taub: Why We Get Fat and What To Do About It). Without the presence of insulin (from carb consumption) our bodies release hormones which allow the muscles to burn fat (body and from diet) for energy. These hormones either aid in the breakdown of Triglycerides stores in our body fat cells (to create smaller fatty acids that the body can use for energy) or shuttle the fat we eat to our muscles.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

Gary Taubes doesn't talk about fat fast muscle loss nor severe calorie restriction. There will be muscle loss, though most of the deficit might be covered by fat. Human body needs 9 Amino acids which are part of protein, if the body doesn't get enough, it will breakdown lean tissue. How much will depend on exercise level, lean body mass and individual needs.

Tanukiko

I should have clarified...the source was for what followed the source. However, I do need to dig up the study which shows that without muscle breakdown (through exercise) low carb/moderate protein/high fat will not result in significant muscle loss. From what I understand muscle loss occurs when energy source is needed and is not available. I have a hard time believing that in a keto-adapted state (with access to 31 calories of stored fat per pound of body fat) the body would ever need to break down lean muscle mass (unless the calorie defecit was huge and the person didn't have a lot of stored fat.

In my case: 206 lbs/38% body fat (using the 31 calorie/pound of body fat formula) gives me 2418 calories of energy that can be pulled from my fat stores daily. Since i actually do eat around 1500-1800 calories a day my body should have plenty of available energy and not need to dip into lean mass.

Lean mass canibilization is really only supposed to occur when someone 1) doesn't have a lot of avialable fat stores AND 2) eats at a caloric deficit which surpasses the available fat stores caloric availability (31 calories/lbs of body fat formula).

Thoughts?

tru2one

Makes perfect sense to me. So I would also take from this that activity level should be minimized if one is giving the Fat Fast a go.

Tanukiko

@true2one That is my interpretation as well, but perhaps others have had no adverse effects with activity during fat fast. I'm only 2.5 weeks in on this so by no means an expert. I haven't really done much exercise (light walking/yoga poses only) and losing fat (per my body fat meter). I'm curious what the correct approach is when dealing with a stall and trying a fat fast.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

There is lot of mixed up things here. In a calorie restricted fat fast of 1000 cal assuming some one who expends 2-3k cals,you will most likely lose muscle mass irrespective of being in ketosis or not. Now, you do it for 4-5 days, may be not a big deal with little loss. Dietary protein plays a big role in maintaining Nitrogen balance. If there isn't enough protein esp in a calorie restricted diets, you will most likely go in to negative Nitrogen balance. Your body uses protein to repair tissues(increases with exercise) and also there is mandatory Nitrogen expulsion, which has been shown to increase in calorie restricted diets. To balance this, right amounts of protein need to be consumed. Fat can't balance Nitrogen nor does functions of amino acids contained in a protein. What Garry Taubes iOS talking about is not needing protein for glucogenisis because ketones can be used in place of glucose. It's important to get minimum amount of protein.

Tanukiko

I'd like to read the source of the nitrogen balance impacts you are referring to. My understanding is that some authors have have argued that, by reducing plasma insulin levels, a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet would spare body protein by minimizing wasteful gluconeogenesis.

20. Blackburn, G. L., J. P. Flatt, G. H. A. Clowes, Jr.,
T. F. O'Donnell, and T. E. Hensle. 1973. Protein sparing
therapy during periods of starvation with sepsis or
trauma. Ann. Surg. 177: 588-594.
21. Flatt, J. P., and G. L. Blackburn. 1974. The metabolic
fuel regulatory system: Implications for protein-sparing
therapies during caloric deprivation and disease. Am.
J. Clin. Nutr. 27: 175-187.body protein by minimizing wasteful gluconeogenesis.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

Nitrogen balance is muscle and protein 101. Glucogenisis has nothing to do with your muscle tissue repair, or ton of other stuff protein/amino acids perform in your body. Glucogenisis supplies glucose and some of it is replaced by Ketones to feed organs like Brain etc... Protein and Amino acids can't be substituted by anything else. Read up on function of protein, nitrogen balance. It's pretty basic stuff. Higher protein than RDA is recommended for low carb Keto diets by almost all experts who prescribe keto diets.

Tanukiko

@Leonidas Thanks for the info. I'll read up on that. Its all a bit confusing because I don't think doctors and scientists have ALL the answers yet. For example the question of whether low carbohydrate/high fat diet provides the body with a metabolic advantagge (or rather disadvantage...ie: using more energy to break down triglycerides). David Attia at least doesn't think there's a complete picture on this.

The other thing i meant to ask you is your thoughts on blood ketone level (since I've noticed you use this as a measure). At least according to Attia positive blood ketone levels do not ensures a net efflux (loss) of body fat. At least according to his equations, blood ketones indicate flux, but not necessarily a loss.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

Don't over think with studies and google, learn to trust your body. When I started low carb in Dec, I was eating 3000-3500 cals with out exercise. You would think I would have gained, but I lost around 11 lbs of fat and 4 lbs of water in 4 weeks. Most people focus on calorie in and out which is interpretation of First law of thermodynamics. But, the key is in second law, where expenditure is different for different types of foods based on inefficiencies and entropy. . I think my body was inefficient for first 4-8 weeks when I ate way more than what I do now and lost huge amounts of fat. Personally, I didn't even set TDEE or care what MFP or websites were recommending, I ate when I was hungry and stopped when I was full. I used to test my BF% every week in Bod pod or scans, there was time when scale wouldn't move but I was burning couple of pounds of fat a week. Also, these BMR and TDEE formulas on internet are not accurate, they are off by 30% for me and glad I didn't starve myself eating less. Dr Attia is right, blood ketone levels doesn't indicate anything about fat loss.

Tanukiko

@Leonidas Thanks for that. I'm basically doing the same...listening to my body...fortunately or unfortunately right now my body is just not hungry at all. I go hours and hours and sometimes almost the entire day without hunger. It is a very odd and liberating feeling to not be a slave to physical hunger. I'm sure at some point as my body stores decrease more my appetite will increase, but right now its just nice not having to think about eating all the time.