Elevation differences how much before drops in performance?

niltiaksivad

I am running my first marathon in September (Porcupine Mountain Trail Marathon) and I am worried that I am going to get there and just die. I am really hoping for a time of 3:59.59 to break 4 hours, but I think even on a flat course this would be doable but still probably difficult. I have trained and lived in Port Huron, MI just northeast of Detroit, MI my whole life and the race is in the upper penninsula on the far west side in Ontonagon. Here is an elevation map: http://topocreator.com/ned-jpg/city_a/600/mi.jpg. Based on this I think the elevation is about 1,200 ft higher than what I'm used to.

Is this enough to cause me problems on race day? If so, what can or should I do? I know the first 3.5 miles are uphill on this course and I am not particularly fond of hills. Don't ask me why this marathon was chosen as my first.....

CarsonRuns

The 1200 feet shouldn't make much of a difference, but there are other factors that will.

Have you ever run a trail race before?
What are you basing your projected finish time on?
Do you train on trails at all?
Do you train on hills?
What is your average weekly mileage over the last year?
How long have you been running?

SonicDeathMonkey80

In, for both support and morbid curiosity to the replies for Carson's questions.

SonicDeathMonkey80

I did a little Googlin' and couldn't find a course elevation chart.

However, I did find the overall results from last year. A 4:00 would have put you at a solid 10th place overall. The winner was a 3:19. Granted, only 84 finished the marathon, but that still says something to me about the degree of difficulty.

Without knowing the answers to Carson's questions, I'd say you're in for a giant world of SUCK, but I wish you the best. This is something I would totally do BTW

http://www.marathonguide.com/results/browse.cfm?MIDD=4818131005&Gen=B&Begin=1&End=84&Max=84

Comments from the site make me think this isn't the best choice for a first marathon, so I wouldn't let this one make or break your marathon career:

Please don't take these numbers too seriously. The course was difficult (we knew that upfront) and muddy. Organization was great, except the finish-line routine was confusing (to me, anyway). And there just were no spectators out there.

This inaugural race was held in the western Upper Peninsula on the edge of Lake Superior. It was well attended and it seemed like the organizers met their number quotas. There was only one hotel in town, and there were several other lodging places within 15 miles or so, and they all filled up some rather quickly. The one hotel in town served as the host for the race; registration and check-in were held there. The hotel organization did a great job, serving coffee, cookies, and brownies to the folks.

Overnight rainfall changed this course into a mud-fest, and an additional ½ inch of rain was forecast for race day too. The Porcupine Mountain ski lodge served as the start and finish line, and the ski lodge is three miles from Silver City. The course was a modified double loop. Most of it in the woods, and much of it cross-country ski trails. The race started at 8:00 a.m. with a seven-hour time limit. The lodge was open for the runners to use for the event. Runners started gathering around 7:00 a.m., when it was still dark outside (this is the western edge of the eastern time zone, so it got light outside kind of late). There were 137 marathon registrations, but well less than 100 finished the marathon. The timing was done by Superior Timing Company.

Runners gathered in front of the lodge to receive last minute instructions. We were instructed to run the course, then reverse directions and run it a second time. The start of the second loop had us actually running up the ski slope (though no one I saw was running that part of it). Everything was wet and muddy almost from the start. There were radical elevation changes in this course. There were two aid stations; one served the runners three times; the other one served the runners twice. So it worked out to about every five miles. This is a carry your own water bottle race. Volunteers served water, carb drink, and gel. One station had cookies too.

The course was remarkable well marked (with flags) and it would have been difficult to get lost. This course would have been difficult even if it had been dry (roots, fallen trees, and elevation changes), but given that - and the mud too, everything was slippery. I saw multiple runners fall down including me. Some sustained knee or ankle injuries too.

At the finish line, there were a few spectators, but the timing officials were inside the lodge, and after crossing the finish line, a timing official had to bring you a slip if paper from inside, find you, and give it to you. Then you had to take that slip of paper to the other end of the lodge and hand it to a race official, and they then checked your paper and handed you a finishers medal which was actually a carved wood medallion. I thought that was unusual (and it was not clear to me what I was supposed to do after crossing the finish line; usually that is where the medals are handed out). The race organization had some fruit and energy snacks at the finish line, but the Ski lodge people inside were trying to sell soup, et al. Of course, if you dont have cash on you, you cant buy their stuff. That was a disappointment to me.

It was definitely a challenging course.
It was very remote; would have been hard to get help if you were injured on the course.
The rainfall made the course somewhat unsafe.
The landscape was beautiful; you were really in the woods too.
I would recommend this race, but if it is wet, you will not stay clean (if that matters).
Overall, Jeff and his staff did a great job putting on this race.

KateRunsColorado

Yeah, depending on the type of "trail" race it is, expect to run significantly slower than you do on roads.

Example -

My road marathon PR is 4:18:17 (May 18, 2014)

I just did the Leadville Trail Marathon in 7:09:XX (June 14,2014)

Same distance, WAY different terrain and elevation. If you're not experienced on trails, you can probably do it, but just go in knowing you're probably going to have to walk portions of it, and be prepared to be on your feet for a long time.

Now before I go scaring you too much, Leadville was over 6,000 feet of elevation gain and loss, and the entire marathon was run above 10,000' in altitude, topping out at 13,185'. Yours probably won't be that difficult (I also tried searching for an elevation profile but couldn't find one). But just be prepared. You generally cannot run trails as fast as you can run roads.

KateRunsColorado

I did a little Googlin' and couldn't find a course elevation chart.

It seems very strange that they wouldn't have an elevation profile online! Especially for a race this long. I would email the race director and ask for one - it will help you a lot mentally to know what you're getting into. Some trail runs are relatively flat, while others can be really hilly. Predicting your finishing time would honestly be kind of impossible without seeing this, or training on the course.

KateRunsColorado

Also (sorry I am bombarding this post - can't manage to get all my thoughts in at one time!), but to just in general answer your question about racing at Sea Level vs. 1200' - you might notice some difference, and it might slow you down a bit, but probably not significantly. Hills on the course will slow you down more than just being at a higher elevation will.

I live at 5000' and just ran that Leadville race at 10,000+ and I did okay. You just need take things a little slower and drink a lot of water.

niltiaksivad

Man thank you every one for your support and responses!

To answer Carson's questions to give you a better idea of what is going on:

Have you ever run a trail race before? Probably a 5k a long time ago, but not any time recently...

What are you basing your projected finish time on? In general, when I'm running, no matter how far, I can hold a solid 9 min mile per pace for what seems indefinitely.

Do you train on trails at all? Not that many around my area, sometimes can find some short ones, but at most it's a once every two week thing and they are pretty weak trails at that.

Do you train on hills? Starting to throw in hills once a week. Not sure if I should be doing interval training, but I've just been running up and down up and down for like 5 miles at a time.

What is your average weekly mileage over the last year? Last year of school was rough...so not a lot. Can't even give you an estimate. Generally no matter how long I go without running though I have a solid base and get back into it quickly...I have like 3 months hard running a year (summer) then casual running 2-3 times a week the rest of the year. I don't like running in snow...

How long have you been running? I've been a runner since middle school, so that's 10 years? Did both cross country and track. The longest I've ever ran before is 15 miles.

Man I feel like such a noob after answering those questions! I'm currrently following a Runkeeper training plan. Building the distance up, little strength training, taking it slow though and taking recovery days seriously, 12 mile run tomorrow.

My sister is also running it with me, but she has a lot less experience, and runs about a whole minute per mile slower than me with a lot less of a base. She has been a runner for like 2 years now. I'm taking everyone's advice very seriously. If suggested, I may cancel and do a different race (we got registration insurance).

CarsonRuns

I did a little Googlin' and couldn't find a course elevation chart.

However, I did find the overall results from last year. A 4:00 would have put you at a solid 10th place overall. The winner was a 3:19. Granted, only 84 finished the marathon, but that still says something to me about the degree of difficulty.

Based on this information and your answers to my questions, If I were you, I'd prepare for more like a 6 hour ordeal. It does not sound like this race is an easy one. It sounds like you have an adequate base to train for a marathon, I just don't know that I would pick this one.

Also, running 15 miles at 9:00 pace is different from 26.2. Most runners will run out of glycogen stores at around mile 20 and then it's all you can do to just pick your feet up for the next step. Until you've actually experienced it, you can't imagine how difficult it is. That's hitting the wall. I did it in my first marathon at 19 miles and the rest of it sucked. That was with a weekly average base of over 40 miles per week for a good two years.

You can pretty much fake your way through every race distance shorter than the marathon. It really is a different beast than the rest of them.

Not trying to discourage you, but I just want to help make sure you know what you are getting yourself into.

niltiaksivad

Thanks for your advice Carson!

I've had an uneasy feeling about this race since the day we registered, and everyone has verified my concerns. Don't worry, not taking any of it as discouragement, takes a lot more than that to discourage a runner. I just see it as rational! Every race is different from the 400m to the 10k to the marathon, each distance takes practice to learn what works for you and how to pace yourself.

I'll use this forum as evidence to my sister that we should transfer.

Maybe next year we can try to conquer the 'ole Porky Mountain.

Again, I can't thank everyone enough for your time. If you ever see me at a race, I owe you a beer!

niltiaksivad

Hey guys, I'm back...

So, it looks like transferring the marathon is not going to be as simple as I thought (rip off race insurance!). Thinking I can maybe bite the bullet and do the Porcupine Half Marathon, instead of the full marathon, then do a different marathon shortly after. Is it a bad idea to run a half marathon a week before a marathon? There is a cool marathon a week after the Porcupine Mountain, but I feel like that is a little too much so close to running a marathon. My training plan has me running max 10 miles two weeks prior to the marathon.

CarsonRuns

Is it a bad idea to run a half marathon a week before a marathon?

Completely depends on the level of effort you put into the HM. If you race it, then yes it's a bad idea to run a marathon the next week. If you do the 13.1 at your easy run pace, then you can certainly do the marathon the week after. A marathon training schedule would have you doing a run somewhere around that length the week before anyway.

_Josee_

Is it a bad idea to run a half marathon a week before a marathon?

Completely depends on the level of effort you put into the HM. If you race it, then yes it's a bad idea to run a marathon the next week. If you do the 13.1 at your easy run pace, then you can certainly do the marathon the week after. A marathon training schedule would have you doing a run somewhere around that length the week before anyway.

I totally agree with Carson.

I want to add that if you want to race the half, I would chose a full 4 weeks after. That way you could do both at your full potential.

sarahc001

I pretty much always say "do it" when people want to try things that might be beyond their comfort zone, but this is definitely an exception. First of all, no chance you'll break 4 hours. But fine, easy enough to say that you'll be out for 6 hours. That wouldn't be enough to decide against the race. Michigan is no Leadville, and it's unlikely you will notice any difference in performance due to the elevation. Though there's no elevation profile, the 6h cutoff leads me to believe that the elevation profile can't be all that bad. Ok, wait, in one place it says 6h, and in one it says 7. Cutoff at mile 22 is 6h in so I'm assuming that the 7h time is correct.

So my main concern for you is lack of support. You have 9.5 miles between aid station 1 and 2. That will probably equate to about 2h in dry conditions- don't even ask what it will take you if you have rain and mud...much longer. You really don't want to be out there that long on your own. Also, between the lack of support, lack of elevation information, and discrepancies between cutoffs on the home page, I'm worried that there just isn't enough organization and that you will have other issues, like trails that aren't well marked. Getting lost would be no fun.

Overall I worry that this event will completely turn you off to trail running, which would be sad. If you are at all interested in trying trails, I HIGHLY recommend entering the VHTRC womens half marathon in the dc area September 13. Entry is by lottery, and the lottery is open through July 14. There are 5 aid stations in the half marathon, and no one- really, no one- does a trail event like VHTRC. The course description (map, elevation profile, etc.) is here: http://www.vhtrc.org/half/?page=course. If I weren't going to be out of town, I would definitely be out volunteering.