Tactical Dehydration
AglaeaC
Posts: 1,974 Member
I read this yesterday in the August issue of Runner's World:
http://www.runnersworld.com/hydration-dehydration/tactical-dehydration-increases-speed
The comments are worth skimming through, as well.
Thoughts?
http://www.runnersworld.com/hydration-dehydration/tactical-dehydration-increases-speed
The comments are worth skimming through, as well.
Thoughts?
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Replies
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I think CarsonRuns does this. I'm no where near advanced to even be able to present a cogent argument yea or nay. It's in my back pocket for when I need to fight for a marathon PR.0
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Correct. I do almost all of my runs without water and have seen dehydration rates as high as about 6% (over 7 pounds lost during the run).
One of the comments referenced Noakes' book with refutes every single study in the last 100 years that says you have to drink water when you exercise. The basic premise being that the human body is designed to dehydrate during work bouts and then re-hydrate during subsequent meal periods.
Running short on time here, but I'll check back later for further discussion.0 -
I've been subconciously doing this for pretty much all my training.
That said it's only recently that I am approaching the 90min mark for running but I still go without water/nutrition. I'll assess my performance as summer kicks in for me and see if I need to adjust.
I do it simply because I can't be bothered to carry anything with me, besides my phone when I run.0 -
Like likitisplit I have no specific knowledge on this, but physiologically speaking it would be gloriously stupid to have the need to drink water during strenuous activities (fight or flight at its most extreme) evolve into a demand tied closely to survival.
Personally I think the extreme amounts that some members seem to be favouring in the forums are both questionable and worrysome, since we do have developed thirst and the whole homeostasis thing is tightly regulated. I was reading up on water volumes (extracellular compartment and all that jazz) for my exam and only hypovolaemia (basically too concentrated bodily fluids; dehydration in other words) was mentioned in the acute section. I think its opposite, drinking too much, falls under psychiatry... If you've watched the early seasons of Grey's Anatomy, there was a pt. who got so desperate that he drank out of the toilet when he was denied fluids and Alex calculated the sodium wrong so the guy died.
Anyway, this is a very interesting topic and highly challenging in warm/hot conditions. Looking forward to more water talk!0 -
The hydration recommendations from the "experts" are based on "studies" conducted by organizations like the Sports Science Institute. Guess who funds that organization? Gatorade, which is owned by Pepsi. They have conducted their "experiments" in such as way as to derive the results that they wanted, which is that you must drink lots during exercise and especially stuff like Gatorade because it keeps your electrolytes in balance. Well, that's complete and utter hogwash as Noakes points out in "Waterlogged" and has also been confirmed in other independent studies. Drinking electrolytes has ZERO impact on your electrolyte balance because the human body already keeps you in balance through homeostasis. Going from memory here, but I think the body stores excess electrolytes in the liver(?) and pulls them into the blood plasma (again, going from memory) to maintain the balance. Noakes cites a study in which subjects were feed a diet that was completely free of salt and it took an extraordinarily long time (like more than a week) before the blood started to reached unbalanced levels. He makes the point that, given the typical diet of most of the civilized world, there is no way you will ever go into electrolyte imbalance. So, based on his findings and those other studies, I find electrolyte added beverages to be totally useless. I drink Gatorade, but it's for the fluid and the carbohydrates.
A bit of a tangent on the electrolytes, but it really illustrates how the recommendations being made to the public regarding hydration have been based on profit motive, not what is actually best for us.0 -
Noakes cites a study in which subjects were feed a diet that was completely free of salt and it took an extraordinarily long time (like more than a week) before the blood started to reached unbalanced levels. He makes the point that, given the typical diet of most of the civilized world, there is no way you will ever go into electrolyte imbalance. So, based on his findings and those other studies, I find electrolyte added beverages to be totally useless. I drink Gatorade, but it's for the fluid and the carbohydrates.
A word of warning on that small section above. I HAVE suffered the effects of (what I believe to be) an electrolyte imbalance (Super low Sodium levels). I wasn't exercising at the time, so I didn't notice any effects until I had some chest pains. Build up, or should that be depletion took maybe 1 week at most, as I was on a mine site and had decided to start eating 'healthy' and pulled back from salty foods. Definitely not no salt, but very low salt. It was a hot area, and I sweated a lot thus drank a lot of water.
No lasting damage, no 'proper' diagnosis, but seeing as I had low sodium levels after I had, had over 1L of saline pumped into me intravenously I am making the jump to the cause.
I know I'm not everyone, but it can happen and if anyone wants more details on what happened to me, other than some extremely minor chest pains that I originally wrote off as a bull riding injury I'm happy to share.0 -
Noakes cites a study in which subjects were feed a diet that was completely free of salt and it took an extraordinarily long time (like more than a week) before the blood started to reached unbalanced levels. He makes the point that, given the typical diet of most of the civilized world, there is no way you will ever go into electrolyte imbalance. So, based on his findings and those other studies, I find electrolyte added beverages to be totally useless. I drink Gatorade, but it's for the fluid and the carbohydrates.
A word of warning on that small section above. I HAVE suffered the effects of (what I believe to be) an electrolyte imbalance (Super low Sodium levels). I wasn't exercising at the time, so I didn't notice any effects until I had some chest pains. Build up, or should that be depletion took maybe 1 week at most, as I was on a mine site and had decided to start eating 'healthy' and pulled back from salty foods. Definitely not no salt, but very low salt. It was a hot area, and I sweated a lot thus drank a lot of water.
No lasting damage, no 'proper' diagnosis, but seeing as I had low sodium levels after I had, had over 1L of saline pumped into me intravenously I am making the jump to the cause.
I know I'm not everyone, but it can happen and if anyone wants more details on what happened to me, other than some extremely minor chest pains that I originally wrote off as a bull riding injury I'm happy to share.
In Noakes book there was a study that was conducted in very similar conditions to those you mentioned. Miners in super hot conditions, eating low sodium over a period of time. if I remember correctly, the result was very similar to what you described, about a week before they ran into a deficit. Which only serves to reinforce the notion that for endurance training and racing, for a person with a normal or even low sodium diet, there is no idea for additional electrolytes as these events don't last for a week, but usually no more than half a day at the extreme end (ultras and IMs).0 -
My personal experience is that, after an hour, I run better if I have access to water. I also feel "dehydrated" in the summer if I drink only water before exercise and that my running suffers - popping a tab of Nuun into my water makes me feel better on the run. At this point in my career, I'm just trying to run long and often enough to increase my ability past the beginner level, so "by any means necessary" you know.
In Lore of Running, Noakes finds that "during prolonged exercise, even in those who replaced all fluid lost in sweat, the body is forced to deplete its fluid stores as a consequence of the sodium chloride losses in sweat" (Noakes, Norman et al. 1990) even though, theoretically, the average diet should contain enough NaCl to fully supply all but the most prolonged exercise - you're still better off supplementing in "prolonged" situations.
Then he suggests that sports drinks should have even more sodium, citing a huge number of studies and the personal experience of an ultramarathoner. However, magnesium and potassium are not an issue. He doubts anybody is going to make any changes because Gatorade doesn't exactly get the bulk of their business from athletes engaged in vigorous exercise.
This is what happens when some *kitten* recommends to new C25K graduates that they should purchase and read enormous tomes of primary research. Never change, MFP. Never change.0 -
I'd have to go back and reread the preface in "Waterlogged", but I believe he recants some of his findings from "Lore".0
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I'd have to go back and reread the preface in "Waterlogged", but I believe he recants some of his findings from "Lore".
I wouldn't doubt it. Lore was a ridiculous suggestion for somebody at my level
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I'd have to go back and reread the preface in "Waterlogged", but I believe he recants some of his findings from "Lore".
I wouldn't doubt it. Lore was a ridiculous suggestion for somebody at my level
I don't know that anyone has actually read the entire tome. I use it more like a research tool.0 -
I'd have to go back and reread the preface in "Waterlogged", but I believe he recants some of his findings from "Lore".
I wouldn't doubt it. Lore was a ridiculous suggestion for somebody at my level
I don't know that anyone has actually read the entire tome. I use it more like a research tool.
You know how some people use their bible as a divination tool: they close their eyes, open to a random place and stick a pin in it to find a relevant verse? That's kind of what I do.
Understanding the context of where he comes from in terms of Central Governor vs. hard physical thresholds was really informative and I've gotten a lot out of that. He kind of cuts swaths in what you have to CARE about as a distance runner. I love that he doesn't just do the research but interprets and applies it to the real world. For what it is, it's a really good,fairly easy read and I'd highly recommend it. It's just everything + the kitchen sink and a spare dog.0 -
Noakes cites a study in which subjects were feed a diet that was completely free of salt and it took an extraordinarily long time (like more than a week) before the blood started to reached unbalanced levels. He makes the point that, given the typical diet of most of the civilized world, there is no way you will ever go into electrolyte imbalance. So, based on his findings and those other studies, I find electrolyte added beverages to be totally useless. I drink Gatorade, but it's for the fluid and the carbohydrates.
A word of warning on that small section above. I HAVE suffered the effects of (what I believe to be) an electrolyte imbalance (Super low Sodium levels). I wasn't exercising at the time, so I didn't notice any effects until I had some chest pains. Build up, or should that be depletion took maybe 1 week at most, as I was on a mine site and had decided to start eating 'healthy' and pulled back from salty foods. Definitely not no salt, but very low salt. It was a hot area, and I sweated a lot thus drank a lot of water.
No lasting damage, no 'proper' diagnosis, but seeing as I had low sodium levels after I had, had over 1L of saline pumped into me intravenously I am making the jump to the cause.
I know I'm not everyone, but it can happen and if anyone wants more details on what happened to me, other than some extremely minor chest pains that I originally wrote off as a bull riding injury I'm happy to share.
In Noakes book there was a study that was conducted in very similar conditions to those you mentioned. Miners in super hot conditions, eating low sodium over a period of time. if I remember correctly, the result was very similar to what you described, about a week before they ran into a deficit. Which only serves to reinforce the notion that for endurance training and racing, for a person with a normal or even low sodium diet, there is no idea for additional electrolytes as these events don't last for a week, but usually no more than half a day at the extreme end (ultras and IMs).
I feel the electrolytes have their place, IF you are on a low sodium diet for some reason and engaged in a heavy training load/multiple events. Obviously it is all dependant on a multitude of conditions such as workload in work & training, environment, other lifestyle factors. It may not go to the level of a trip to the ER, but it will have an effect.
Surprisingly to some, during the lead up to my incident, I did not suffer a single cramp.
^^^ All that is still just personal experience and a 'study' of one. Take what you will with a grain of salt
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[Surprisingly to some, during the lead up to my incident, I did not suffer a single cramp.
^^^ All that is still just personal experience and a 'study' of one. Take what you will with a grain of salt
That's because there is no scientific proof that low electrolytes leads to cramping. Noakes cites two factors that lead to cramping:
1) Asking the muscles to do something they are not capable of (over training, hard racing, etc)
2) Heredity0 -
[Surprisingly to some, during the lead up to my incident, I did not suffer a single cramp.
^^^ All that is still just personal experience and a 'study' of one. Take what you will with a grain of salt
That's because there is no scientific proof that low electrolytes leads to cramping. Noakes cites two factors that lead to cramping:
1) Asking the muscles to do something they are not capable of (over training, hard racing, etc)
2) Heredity
Really? I've found that magnesium makes a difference for me.0
