Long run pacing
kristinegift
Posts: 2,406 Member
Does anyone else go out for their long run and discover their body has a totally different idea about pacing than it does the rest of the week?
Because mine certainly does. I can go run 8 miles on a Wednesday, and pace 8:40-8:50. But on my long run, at 8 miles I'm pacing 9:15-9:30, depending on the humidity. Granted for one of these, 8 miles is how far I'm going total, and for the other, 8 miles is the halfway point (or less), but still! At the end of my 15 miles today, I thought I was going to have to walk back when I got to abot 13.5 miles, but then my last mile was sub-9:00 after doing about 10 consecutive miles between a 9:25 and 9:55 pace! So I know I have gas left in the tank, but my body just doesn't want to give it up until I'm on the very last mile.
Any tips on how to convince my body to put forth a little more effort throughout the whole run, instead of conserving until the last little bit? I don't seem to have this problem on my mid-week runs, just on the big kahunas on the weekend.
Because mine certainly does. I can go run 8 miles on a Wednesday, and pace 8:40-8:50. But on my long run, at 8 miles I'm pacing 9:15-9:30, depending on the humidity. Granted for one of these, 8 miles is how far I'm going total, and for the other, 8 miles is the halfway point (or less), but still! At the end of my 15 miles today, I thought I was going to have to walk back when I got to abot 13.5 miles, but then my last mile was sub-9:00 after doing about 10 consecutive miles between a 9:25 and 9:55 pace! So I know I have gas left in the tank, but my body just doesn't want to give it up until I'm on the very last mile.
Any tips on how to convince my body to put forth a little more effort throughout the whole run, instead of conserving until the last little bit? I don't seem to have this problem on my mid-week runs, just on the big kahunas on the weekend.
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Having enough left in the tank to speed up at the end of your 15-miler sounds like a good result to me, not a bad one.
But what does the rest of your week's training look like, and do you do all your other runs at the same pace?0 -
Okay, just looked at your profile and it looks to me as though you're trying to do all your runs at half marathon race pace, which is way too fast. I'd slow most of them (including the mid-week 8-miler) right down and save your faster paces (that you know you can do) for specific workouts. Long runs are for building aerobic endurance and training your body to burn fat, and that'll happen if you run slow.
Try doing the long run even slower (10 mins +), and if that feels discouraging, do the last three miles of it at a faster pace. That way you'll get the benefit of the long, slow run, but you'll still know you can run race pace when you're already tired.0 -
Okay, just looked at your profile and it looks to me as though you're trying to do all your runs at half marathon race pace, which is way too fast. I'd slow most of them (including the mid-week 8-miler) right down and save your faster paces (that you know you can do) for specific workouts. Long runs are for building aerobic endurance and training your body to burn fat, and that'll happen if you run slow.
Try doing the long run even slower (10 mins +), and if that feels discouraging, do the last three miles of it at a faster pace. That way you'll get the benefit of the long, slow run, but you'll still know you can run race pace when you're already tired.
I mean, to be honest, I don't purposefully run certain paces. I sort of just run the pace I feel like running. So sometimes 8:40 feels comfortable, sometimes 9:40 feels comfortable. I haven't quite grasped the idea of purposefully running slower that my legs want to go; I just anticipate getting slower after the half-way point and target times that align with that. I'm not running at a race pace or a training pace; I just run the pace I want, and that's how I do races too, which I view more as completion/training runs when they get to anything above 5-7 miles. Admittedly, this is probably not an A+ training plan, but it allows me to have a good idea of a target time for long distance races, because I get a lot of practice doing the same(ish) pace for 2+ hours at a time. When running for that long though, I'm not sure how to tap into the faster paces I run mid-week, which are closer to a "race pace" if I have one
I'll have to practice on my next few long runs to see if I can get that pace boost earlier than the last mile. 0 -
Fair enough, but if you have only done halves and are now training for your first full marathon, I think you'll need those slower runs to give you the strength to complete the marathon comfortably. You see loads of people on running forums who do all their training at a faster pace but then just crash 20 miles into the full marathon (even when they've run 20 miles at the same pace before!).0
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Take your race times and plug them into this calculator. http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ Then click on training paces to give you an idea of what you should be trying to pace. You will not do yourself any favors running training runs at race pace. Slow down to get faster. Plan to run a negative split, not positive splits. Start slow and build to a faster pace at the end.0
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Fair enough, but if you have only done halves and are now training for your first full marathon, I think you'll need those slower runs to give you the strength to complete the marathon comfortably. You see loads of people on running forums who do all their training at a faster pace but then just crash 20 miles into the full marathon (even when they've run 20 miles at the same pace before!).
I will add to this. You cannot run a full marathon with your current running strategy. You have to know how to pace. Otherwise you will do the death march at the end.0 -
Fair enough, but if you have only done halves and are now training for your first full marathon, I think you'll need those slower runs to give you the strength to complete the marathon comfortably. You see loads of people on running forums who do all their training at a faster pace but then just crash 20 miles into the full marathon (even when they've run 20 miles at the same pace before!).
I will add to this. You cannot run a full marathon with your current running strategy. You have to know how to pace. Otherwise you will do the death march at the end.
This.
I'm faster than you and run wayyyy slower than you on my training runs. That should tell you something. You're not going to get a medal for running at HM pace all the time. Slow down.0 -
Fair enough, but if you have only done halves and are now training for your first full marathon, I think you'll need those slower runs to give you the strength to complete the marathon comfortably. You see loads of people on running forums who do all their training at a faster pace but then just crash 20 miles into the full marathon (even when they've run 20 miles at the same pace before!).
I will add to this. You cannot run a full marathon with your current running strategy. You have to know how to pace. Otherwise you will do the death march at the end.
This.
I'm faster than you and run wayyyy slower than you on my training runs. That should tell you something. You're not going to get a medal for running at HM pace all the time. Slow down.
I'm gonna second-third-fourth this!
The BEST BEST BEST thing I've learned early on, was pacing myself. Seriously! You NEED to figure it out if you want to have a great first marathon!!!
I ran my first in May, and my first mile was my slowest, then the other one were basically all within 10 seconds of each others. I didn't hit de wall and I didn't walk one single step. The number of people I passed in the last 4 miles blew my mind.
So yeah, learn to pace yourself!
(And I second ZenInTexas McMillan link. I'm training with those paces and it works great for me!)
Editing to add this: Like SonicDeathMonkey said... My race times are faster than yours and I don't remember the last time I ran a training run around 8:40 (except for tempos or intervals)....0 -
I ran my first in May, and my first mile was my slowest, then the other one were basically all within 10 seconds of each others. I didn't hit de wall and I didn't walk one single step. The number of people I passed in the last 4 miles blew my mind.
I'm from the UK so I ran the London marathon as my first (and indeed second) and they give you some really cool stats at the end, including your position before and after the last 7k. So in the last 7k of my first marathon, I passed 339 people... and 3 passed me! That was pretty cool.
(Grr, except those 3 people, obviously. I'm pretty sure I got them the second time).0 -
I ran my first in May, and my first mile was my slowest, then the other one were basically all within 10 seconds of each others. I didn't hit de wall and I didn't walk one single step. The number of people I passed in the last 4 miles blew my mind.
I'm from the UK so I ran the London marathon as my first (and indeed second) and they give you some really cool stats at the end, including your position before and after the last 7k. So in the last 7k of my first marathon, I passed 339 people... and 3 passed me! That was pretty cool.
(Grr, except those 3 people, obviously. I'm pretty sure I got them the second time).
I got stats too!
Last 7km I passed 454 people and 5 passed me.
From the first 5km mark to the finish line I passes 767 people total (Most of that was after the half point though).
It was a very very good feeling to see all those people walking after the 30km mark and passing them. That's what you get when you start out too fast. You can get away with it for a half, you can't in the marathon.0 -
Tagging for later, as this is my biggest problem too!0
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The road marathon I did a few weeks ago had some interesting split data too. There was only a 1:50 (min:sec) difference between my first half and second half times, the closest I've ever come to running an even split marathon. Just for kicks I looked at the numbers for people I'd finished ahead of, especially the ones whose bib numbers indicated that they should have finished way ahead of me.
Holy carnage and spectacular blow ups! If the clock had stopped at the half I would have been easily beaten by tons of people. But this wasn't a half it was a full. There were still a bunch ahead of me, some by as much as 20 minutes even at the 17.1 mile split. Then the gaps start coming down dramatically, right around where "the wall" typically rears its ugly head. It was really shocking the heavy price some of these folks had to pay for poor pacing. Even with some who had a two or three minute lead at the final split at mile 23 I still passed them.
I landed in the top 20% of my division at that race which was a large urban marathon. I ran that race as hard and as smart as I could. So pace well and you'll likely pass a ton of people when you cross the finish line or don't and have the potential for an epic blow up that a random stranger will look at and go - what the heck happened to you?
Edit: OP, my half marathon race times are faster than yours as well. Unless I'm doing a tempo run or intervals I'm never at half marathon race pace or faster.0 -
I plan to run my marathon around 7:27-7:32, so my easy runs are around 7:45-8:20 and my long runs are 8:00-8:45 and my recovery runs are somewhere between 9-10 min miles. So, I agree with everyone else, try deliberately slowing down.0
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With respect to the pacing issue I'm running a trail half in October, that's run alongside a trail marathon. We're starting at the half way point of the marathon, 1 hr 45 after the start of the full.
The cut off is at the half way checkpoint; 2:45 for the first half of the race, or you're on the bus.
They're anticipating 5hrs 30 for the last runners across the finish line.
Won't be doing that as my first marathon I don't think, but there is plenty of time for my first half.0 -
I loved seeing this thread today because I just learned this important information last week, after already being in marathon training for several weeks. So it's been kinda blowing my mind the past few days as I tweak my training schedule. Three days ago was my first long run where I forced myself to go stay in my aerobic threshold which was very slow, and it wasn't easy to do! I really wanted to have fun and go faster. But I kept repeating what I read in my head "your training runs aren't about proving your fitness - you do that on race day."0
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I will certainly take a look at the McMillan calculator and try to start pacing slower on my long runs! I definitely don't want to majorly crash and burn on race day! Maybe it will keep me from bonking around mile 15 on my longer runs, like I did during my 18 miler last week. Thanks for all the tips, everyone!
Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!0 -
Most everything that needs to be said has been said, but I want to add one other nugget. I'm of the belief that, if you have to slow down your long run to a slower pace than your easy run, you're doing your easy runs too fast. You should be able to do a long run at your easy run pace, maybe even a little bit faster.
My easy/long run pace is around 9/9:30, sometimes a little faster even, like 8:45. My marathon pace is around 7:20, my HM pace is around 6:45. You don't need to run fast all the time to run fast.0 -
Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.0 -
Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.
I''d suggest adding 20 minutes to the marathon prediction for a first marathon.0 -
Most everything that needs to be said has been said, but I want to add one other nugget. I'm of the belief that, if you have to slow down your long run to a slower pace than your easy run, you're doing your easy runs too fast. You should be able to do a long run at your easy run pace, maybe even a little bit faster.
My easy/long run pace is around 9/9:30, sometimes a little faster even, like 8:45. My marathon pace is around 7:20, my HM pace is around 6:45. You don't need to run fast all the time to run fast.
This seems like the hardest thing of all to do.0 -
I agree with Carson re. easy run pacing - my average pace on long runs tends to be slightly faster because it takes me a few miles to ease into it. Obviously in a long run the first three warm-up miles are a smaller proportion of the whole run.0
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Most everything that needs to be said has been said, but I want to add one other nugget. I'm of the belief that, if you have to slow down your long run to a slower pace than your easy run, you're doing your easy runs too fast. You should be able to do a long run at your easy run pace, maybe even a little bit faster.
My easy/long run pace is around 9/9:30, sometimes a little faster even, like 8:45. My marathon pace is around 7:20, my HM pace is around 6:45. You don't need to run fast all the time to run fast.
I think that's true without any other limiting factors such as heat and humidity. I do my my midweek runs around an average 9:30 pace but the last two weekends I've done my longer run at about a 9:50 pace. It's just too flipping hot to run that far without cutting back a bit. It normally takes me about 3 - 4 miles to get my pulse up to it's normal range. It's not terrible to run a couple miles with my HR over 160 hence the slightly faster pace midweek. When you have 10 miles to go and you're totally warmed up that's just a no-go when it's 82 degrees and 82% humidity. I mean it's totally possible but I'm doing this for enjoyment too and it just takes the fun out of the longer run to be that hot.
82 degrees is as cold as it gets around here in August for anyone thinking of suggesting to get up earlier. I'm starting 30 minutes before sunup at the coolest time of day.
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To the OP, I force myself to run slower on the longer run and the last 3 miles I stop keeping track of pace and just do what feels good. That lets me do the entire thing, still get some fun, and then not be totally wiped the next day.0 -
Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.
I''d suggest adding 20 minutes to the marathon prediction for a first marathon.
That much ?!? I was only 7 minutes over McMillan prediction...0 -
Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.
I''d suggest adding 20 minutes to the marathon prediction for a first marathon.
That much ?!? I was only 7 minutes over McMillan prediction...
McMillan predictions come with the disclaimer 'if you've done the equivalent training for the distance'. For a marathon, that's usually going to be higher mileage than most first-time marathoners will have done, on average. It's entirely possible to hit the McMillan predicted time if you HAVE done the equivalent training (and preferably if you've got a few years of running behind you before doing your first full marathon).
(Josee - I was 9 seconds over!)0 -
McMillan is pretty close to spot-on for me from 1m to marathon.0
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Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.
I''d suggest adding 20 minutes to the marathon prediction for a first marathon.
That much ?!? I was only 7 minutes over McMillan prediction...
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/5Another estimate of your marathon time is to double your half-marathon time and add five minutes. For example, if you run 1:30:00 for a half-marathon then this method would predict that you could run 3:05:00 for a marathon. I find, however, that doubling your half-marathon and adding seven minutes is slightly more accurate for most runners.
That's my plan anyway. I'm at about 1:54 (1:50 under good conditions) for a half so I'm shooting for just under 4 hours for my first marathon. *whimper*0 -
Edit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.
I''d suggest adding 20 minutes to the marathon prediction for a first marathon.
That much ?!? I was only 7 minutes over McMillan prediction...
McMillan predictions come with the disclaimer 'if you've done the equivalent training for the distance'. For a marathon, that's usually going to be higher mileage than most first-time marathoners will have done, on average. It's entirely possible to hit the McMillan predicted time if you HAVE done the equivalent training (and preferably if you've got a few years of running behind you before doing your first full marathon).
(Josee - I was 9 seconds over!)
Yeah, I didn't train enough (average 31 mpw on 16 weeks of training) AND I went from Couch-to-Marathon in 14 months. I'm nowhere near my potential lolEdit: That calculator is freaky accurate. It told me my mile time would be ~7:39, and my fastest mile so far this year is 7:37. And the 5k and 10k times are just a minute or so off from the times I've done lately. Cooooool!
Just take the marathon prediction with a grain of salt. I think the usual rule of thumb is McMillan +10-to-15 minutes for a first marathon. And that is if you trained well for the distance.
My 5K-10K-Half times all lign up.. But my marathon time is slower.
I''d suggest adding 20 minutes to the marathon prediction for a first marathon.
That much ?!? I was only 7 minutes over McMillan prediction...
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/5Another estimate of your marathon time is to double your half-marathon time and add five minutes. For example, if you run 1:30:00 for a half-marathon then this method would predict that you could run 3:05:00 for a marathon. I find, however, that doubling your half-marathon and adding seven minutes is slightly more accurate for most runners.
That's my plan anyway. I'm at about 1:54 (1:50 under good conditions) for a half so I'm shooting for just under 4 hours for my first marathon. *whimper*
Double half time + 5 minutes is VERY agressive. For me that would have meant: 1:45 half * 2 = 3:30 + 5 minutes = 3:35. McMillan is at 3:42 with a 1:45 half. My marathon time ending up being 3:49... So yeah, very far from double half + 5min.0 -
For the runner that goes from couch to marathon in 18 to 24 months and tops out a 40 miles per week, I think McMillan plus 20 is a good, conservative number. If they run that pace and have gas in the tank a 20, they can make up 3 to 6 minutes over the last 10K.
For the runner that has been at it for a while, I think 15 minute cushion is probably fine.
The marathon is the hardest distance to race. Early mistakes are compounded at the end. I'd rather run 2 or 3 marathons with a negative split, than try to nail McMillan on my first and blow up at 18 and death march the last 10K plus. I don't believe in the "make it up in the beginning" philosophy at all.0 -
For the runner that goes from couch to marathon in 18 to 24 months and tops out a 40 miles per week, I think McMillan plus 20 is a good, conservative number. If they run that pace and have gas in the tank a 20, they can make up 3 to 6 minutes over the last 10K.
For the runner that has been at it for a while, I think 15 minute cushion is probably fine.
The marathon is the hardest distance to race. Early mistakes are compounded at the end. I'd rather run 2 or 3 marathons with a negative split, than try to nail McMillan on my first and blow up at 18 and death march the last 10K plus. I don't believe in the "make it up in the beginning" philosophy at all.
I agree about the "make it up in the beginning" philosophy. I think it's the worst way to run/race a marathon. Which bring us back to: LEARN TO PACE YOURSELF.
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I trained on a mcmillan plan and Was spot on for my first; but then again his plans are pretty crazy high mileage in comparison to others so I agree the disclaimer may need another disclaimer lol0
