~ Off Topic - ?? re: Men Who Only Have Women Friends on MFP

neandermagnon

"and then there's the statement about weight lifting being for men..."

This is not what I said. My point was that stereotypically male activities are celebrated whilst stereotypically female activities are disparaged, e.g. "cardio bunnies", "Barbie dumbells" etc.

I have not made anti-men comments.

you're saying the same thing again.... classifying zumba/cardio as female and strength training/weight lifting as male is sexist. People disparage cardio because it's no good for achieving what most people, male or female, want to achieve, i.e. a firm/toned body. That's not sexism, it's a biological reality.... you can only come to the conclusion that disparaging cardio is sexist if you believe that cardio is for women and weight training is for men...... and it helps no-one. It just reinforces gender stereotypes. If you break down the gender stereotype, you'll stop seeing it as sexist and start seeing it for what it is... i.e. good advice.

Re "barbie weights" - comparing 5lb dumbbells to children's toys isn't sexist (I don't have sons, but if I did, they'd be allowed to have barbie dolls if they wanted them). 5lb dumbbells about as useful to an able bodied adult human as a barbie accessory, hence the name. The idea that 5lb dumbbells are for women is extremely sexist... and the sexism comes from those marketing them and advising women to use them... so it's the same argument again.... if you challenge the stereotype and incorrect assumption about female biology (i.e. the assumption that women are inherently weak and delicate and need special, easy, exercise forms and accessories) - you'll see that those calling them "barbie weights" aren't the ones being sexist.

I'm not saying this to argue or start a fight... I'm trying to break down gender stereotypes. I know you're posting what you're posting because you support women's rights and want to fight against sexism. I'm just trying to show you a better angle at which to fight that, i.e. go below the surface and challenge the deeper assumptions about men and women that they're (often subconsciously) based on. I hate gender stereotypes, because I've spend my whole entire life being implicitly or overtly told that I'm less of a woman because I don't fit the stereotype. I've also spent my whole life with an IDGAF attitude towards people who do that and just gone on and done my own thing anyway. And I consider myself 100% feminine just like the woman in my avatar. (well, the woman she's a reconstruction of, because the reconstruction is just a lump of plastic)

In the zumba/barbie dumbbell type things, the sexism comes from those who consider those things to be for women, and things like rugby, ice hockey, weight training, etc as being for men. I think rugby is a fantastic sport and netball is a stupid sport... does that make me sexist because I'm disparaging the one that's considered to be for women? No, I consider netball to be an insult to women, as it was set up as a gentle sport for the dainty, delicate, "fair sex" who are too feeble to play a proper sport like basketball (netball is a watered down version of basketball). Similarly, 5lb dumbbells marketed at women are an insult to women. And zumba is a perfectly good form of cardio and should be considered as equally for men as women. The whole attitude most people have towards exercise and women is sexist and frequently insulting. Challenging the stereotypes and promoting weight training above cardio is not sexist, it's breaking down stereotypes.

BTW: if netball was aimed at men and women who are less athletic and don't like rougher sports that involve running around a reasonable amount rather than standing still for half the game because you're not allowed in the whole court, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. I have a problem with any form of sport or exercise that's considered to be for women because women aren't considered to be able to do the proper version of the sport/exercise. I have no issues with easier versions of sports/exercise when marketed at less able people of either gender.

Anyway, that kind of turned into a rant, but the point is it's not sexist to disparage something that's traditionally considered to be for women when that thing is actually not as good as what's been traditionally considered to be for men. In fact, the opposite. Go below the surface and challenge the stereotype instead.

neandermagnon

I am in agreement that the anti-women comments often come from female posters, and some of the most feminist comments come from men. Why wouldn't they? I'm sorry if I gave the impression I thought any different.

yeah I know you are supporting women's rights...... I just wanted to make you look at some of the underlying assumptions behind your statements. To really challenge sexism you have to first identify the real enemy and fight that.

Also, when you look into gender stereotyping, you find that it harms men as much as it does women, e.g. men who are not into physical sports being considered (add sexist and homophobic thing here). And the whole "men don't cry" BS that's probably the main reason why men aged 18-25 have the highest suicide rate.....

canadianlbs

you're saying the same thing again.... classifying zumba/cardio as female and strength training/weight lifting as male is sexist.

identifying an objectively-verifiable social attitude and naming some of its practical manifestations is not the same thing as embracing or advocating for it oneself. i'm baffled as to why such a thing even has to be said to anyone old enough to post in an internet forum at all.

It just reinforces gender stereotypes.

this is ridiculous. the first requirement for 'breaking down' ANY stereotype is identifying the fact that it exists. that's what you've just been witnessing from some of the posters so far. i can't help feeling you're hunting under the wrong lamppost for whatever polemical point it is that you're so eager to make.

I hate gender stereotypes, because I've spend my whole entire life being implicitly or overtly told that I'm less of a woman because I don't fit the stereotype. I've also spent my whole life with an IDGAF attitude towards people who do that and just gone on and done my own thing anyway. And I consider myself 100% feminine just like the woman in my avatar. (well, the woman she's a reconstruction of, because the reconstruction is just a lump of plastic)

meh . . . whatever. go you, i suppose. but you seem kind of smug and self-righteous about it . . . if you ask me.

the sexism comes from those who consider those things to be for women, and things like rugby, ice hockey, weight training, etc as being for men.

. . . well, yeah. and 'those who consider those things to be for women' are the people who are being spoken of here - because someone was asked to explain why they found the general fora to be anti-woman. that person explained how she reached that conclusion, that's all. again, i can't understand why it's even necessary for that to be said.

And zumba is a perfectly good form of cardio and should be considered as equally for men as women.

sure. and if someone wanted to start another sub-forum specifically as a space for men who are into zumba, i'd be pretty cheerful about it and i wouldn't be taking myself over there just to hector them about their internalised sexism, or nitpick any discussions in which they felt like explaining to each other why they felt more comfortable there, compared with doing it out in the general forum.

Go below the surface and challenge the stereotype instead.

by reminding ourselves that your ob/gyn knows all about menstruation, i guess :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

neandermagnon

you're saying the same thing again.... classifying zumba/cardio as female and strength training/weight lifting as male is sexist.

identifying an objectively-verifiable social attitude and naming some of its practical manifestations is not the same thing as embracing or advocating for it oneself. i'm baffled as to why such a thing even has to be said to anyone old enough to post in an internet forum at all.

Why the snarky comment about my age?

She didn't simply identify that it exists... she said it was anti-women to disparage zumba etc and promote weight lifting. Sorry, but that's not sexist or anti-women at all. Just because one is traditionally considered to be feminine does not make disparaging it sexist. the assumption that it's for women, however, is sexist. So to consider it sexist to disparage zumba and promote weightlifting implies that the person making that statement agrees that zumba is for women and weight lifting is for men, because logic.

It just reinforces gender stereotypes.

this is ridiculous. the first requirement for 'breaking down' ANY stereotype is identifying the fact that it exists. that's what you've just been witnessing from some of the posters so far. i can't help feeling you're hunting under the wrong lamppost for whatever polemical point it is that you're so eager to make.

She didn't simply acknowledge it exists... she made a conclusion that you could only come to if you believed those stereotypes to be true.

I hate gender stereotypes, because I've spend my whole entire life being implicitly or overtly told that I'm less of a woman because I don't fit the stereotype. I've also spent my whole life with an IDGAF attitude towards people who do that and just gone on and done my own thing anyway. And I consider myself 100% feminine just like the woman in my avatar. (well, the woman she's a reconstruction of, because the reconstruction is just a lump of plastic)

meh . . . whatever. go you, i suppose. but you seem kind of smug and self-righteous about it . . . if you ask me.

Sorry if you read smugness and self-righteousness into my posts. I didn't type it into there. I typed it all in a matter of fact and trying to stimulate intelligent discussion tone of voice.

the sexism comes from those who consider those things to be for women, and things like rugby, ice hockey, weight training, etc as being for men.

. . . well, yeah. and 'those who consider those things to be for women' are the people who are being spoken of here - because someone was asked to explain why they found the general fora to be anti-woman. that person explained how she reached that conclusion, that's all. again, i can't understand why it's even necessary for that to be said.

I happened to disagree with that particular statement and challenged her on it - just that statement and the bit about men commenting on menstruation.... I didn't comment on anything else she said ... it's not evidence of anti-women attitudes at all... quite the opposite. And yes, if you post stuff that's not only wrong but actually accusing people of being anti-women who are not anti-women, you can expect to be called out for it. And suggesting that men can't know about menstruation because they don't have periods is silly as well as sexist.

And zumba is a perfectly good form of cardio and should be considered as equally for men as women.

sure. and if someone wanted to start another sub-forum specifically as a space for men who are into zumba, i'd be pretty cheerful about it and i wouldn't be taking myself over there just to hector them about their internalised sexism, or nitpick any discussions in which they felt like explaining to each other why they felt more comfortable there, compared with doing it out in the general forum.

Sorry that you consider that hectoring and nitpicking.... I'd rather hoped that this would start an intelligent discussion on stereotyping, and people cross examining the unconscious ideas that underpin their beliefs.

I'm a woman who's into weight lifting, I specifically do stronglifts 5x5 and so this forum is for me just as it is for any woman who does stronglifts 5x5 or any similar programmes... I don't like coming in here reading that weight lifting is a traditionally male thing and that people who are supporting it over Zumba/cardio/etc are being anti-women.... that was the main statement that I challenged and which started this whole argument. I've tried to explain repeatedly why I take issue with that statement and the attitude that underpins it, but it seems that you're taking my comments are nitpicking and hectoring (plus implying that I'm acting like someone who's not old enough to be on the internet) rather than actually considering what I'm saying....

canadianlbs

Why the snarky comment about my age?

well, because the association you seemed to be making reminded me of the kinds of errors my son used to make when he was around 13, in the area of abstract reasoning and analytical thought. he'd skip things like the distinction between what someone reports, and what the same person believes. he grew out of it after a while.

she said it was anti-women to disparage zumba etc and promote weight lifting.

i didn't see any problem with that. considering that such things *are* most commonly a) chosen and enjoyed by women, and b) associated with them in people's minds. it just sounds like all the other ways people who do have an inherent bias against women will grab anything that they think of as being inherently 'female' and use it as a convenient metaphorical way to belittle someone or something else. but you may have interpreted the original mention of those two things differently from the way i did.

> Just because one is traditionally considered to be feminine does not make disparaging it sexist.

no, but using it *as a means* to disparage someone or somebody else definitely betrays bias, and i assumed logge1 was talking about it being used in contexts like that. as in 'you lift like a girl . . . go do some girly thing'.

> the assumption that it's for women, however, is sexist.

to me, the conviction that anything 'for women' is lesser because it's something that women do . . . that's sexist. simply assuming that if you're a girl you'll head for the zumba instead of the weights - well, it's partly hard to fault anyone for it because it seems to be so much the case out there beyond this sub-group. all the same, i dislike the general forum tone too, and that's one of the reasons for it.


> she made a conclusion that you could only come to if you believed those stereotypes to be true.

this lost me. the only conclusion i saw from logge1 is that she finds the general community tone to be anti-women. unless you're talking about something else, the only sense i can make from this comment of yours is something like 'you can only believe that sexism exists if you're a sexist yourself'. to me that's such a weird remark that i'm pretty sure it can't be right, but it's the best i can do.


> And suggesting that men can't know about menstruation because they don't have periods is silly as well as sexist.

well, on this one: me personally i don't give a damn how much someone knows or doesn't know about it. i could go read up on ejaculation and whether or not it drains men's physical strength. i could come away with any amount or level of knowledge, from super-impeccably informed with legitimate medical knowledge, all the way down to bog-ignorant locker room superstitions. but i still wouldn't think of it as anywhere near my place to advise or comment to any man about whether or not he should tailor his sets and reps to how often and copiously he's getting off. it's manners just as much as it's degree of knowledge, to me. and the idea that men *feel free* to advise women about when and how and why they should lift in relation to such a thing - this, to me, is where the bias comes in.

> . I don't like coming in here reading that weight lifting is a traditionally male thing and that people who are supporting it over Zumba/cardio/etc are being anti-women

okay, well, i do think that you missed the point. insert the words 'SEEN AS' at the start of it all, and i think that's closer to what i got from it all, personally. i'm still not sure how or why any of this had to become such a big deal anyway.

neandermagnon

Why the snarky comment about my age?

well, because the association you seemed to be making reminded me of the kinds of errors my son used to make when he was around 13, in the area of abstract reasoning and analytical thought. he'd skip things like the distinction between what someone reports, and what the same person believes. he grew out of it after a while.

She didn't simply report what other people thought... if she'd just simply reported it, then I wouldn't have batted an eyelid, frankly, because a statement such as "many people consider weight lifting to be a masculine thing" is nothing more than a statement... she provided a list of reasons why she felt the forum was anti-women, and one of those statements, which I highlighted, stated that people disparaged traditionally feminine zumba etc and promoted traditionally masculine weight lifting.... to cite that as part of a list of reasons why the forum is anti-women is what I object to and have objected to throughout this discussion.

she said it was anti-women to disparage zumba etc and promote weight lifting.

i didn't see any problem with that. considering that such things *are* most commonly a) chosen and enjoyed by women, and b) associated with them in people's minds. it just sounds like all the other ways people who do have an inherent bias against women will grab anything that they think of as being inherently 'female' and use it as a convenient metaphorical way to belittle someone or something else. but you may have interpreted the original mention of those two things differently from the way i did.

Well I *do* have a problem with the fact that someone would consider it to be anti-women to disparage forms of exercise just because those forms of exercise are considered to be traditionally feminine.

I've been on this forum a long time and read many, many discussions on the whole cardio versus lifting thing, and by no means is it people who are sexist who are promoting lifting. Many of them are women who do lifting, and men who are very supportive of women and who actively encourage women to do lifting, because they know what good results both men and women can get from lifting, and the poor results they get from a cardio and diet only approach.

> Just because one is traditionally considered to be feminine does not make disparaging it sexist.

no, but using it *as a means* to disparage someone or somebody else definitely betrays bias, and i assumed logge1 was talking about it being used in contexts like that. as in 'you lift like a girl . . . go do some girly thing'.

I've never seen anyone doing that on the forum... sounds like observer bias if people are perceiving those promoting weight lifting in that way.... i,e you think that they're saying those things because they don't like women, but you haven't actually checked why they're really saying those things, you're making an assumption.

> the assumption that it's for women, however, is sexist.

to me, the conviction that anything 'for women' is lesser because it's something that women do . . . that's sexist. simply assuming that if you're a girl you'll head for the zumba instead of the weights - well, it's partly hard to fault anyone for it because it seems to be so much the case out there beyond this sub-group. all the same, i dislike the general forum tone too, and that's one of the reasons for it.

you have it backwards. those "things for women" exist and women do them because that's what's been marketed at them, promoted to them, that's what they've been told (implicitly and explicitly) that women are supposed to do..... it's the ones giving those messages to women and girls that are the sexist ones.... the people who disparage those things are not disparaging women. They're disparaging the idea that women are weak and fragile snowflakes who can't handle heavy lifting or real sports/exercise (e.g. basketball as opposed to netball). I disparage those things, especially the stupid little dumbbells* because it's insulting to women that the idea that these things are for women even exists. I'm not anti-women. I'm very much pro-women.

*I support the use of light dumbbells for people with medical issues where appropriate - it's the idea that adult, able bodied women would need to have such tiny dumbbells because they don't want to hurt their pretty fragile selves with bigger ones, that I object to - and yep I'll go on disparaging them just like it says in my avatar.

> she made a conclusion that you could only come to if you believed those stereotypes to be true.

this lost me. the only conclusion i saw from logge1 is that she finds the general community tone to be anti-women. unless you're talking about something else, the only sense i can make from this comment of yours is something like 'you can only believe that sexism exists if you're a sexist yourself'. to me that's such a weird remark that i'm pretty sure it can't be right, but it's the best i can do.

She included the statement I bolded in a list of reasons why the forum is anti-women. Did you miss the statement that I bolded in my first reply on this thread? She made a list of reasons why the forum is anti-women, and one of them was that people disparage "traditionally female" things like zumba and treadmills and promote traditionally male things like weight lifting....... to include this in a list of reasons why the forum is anti-women is wrong. People disparaging those things are not doing so because they're anti-women. They're disparaging them because they're not effective ways to achieve the kind of physique that most women want to achieve and they're disparaging the idea that women are weak and fragile and need special, easy forms of exercise just for them.... that's the whole point I've been making all along. I don't know how I can make what I'm saying any clearer....

> And suggesting that men can't know about menstruation because they don't have periods is silly as well as sexist.

well, on this one: me personally i don't give a damn how much someone knows or doesn't know about it. i could go read up on ejaculation and whether or not it drains men's physical strength. i could come away with any amount or level of knowledge, from super-impeccably informed with legitimate medical knowledge, all the way down to bog-ignorant locker room superstitions. but i still wouldn't think of it as anywhere near my place to advise or comment to any man about whether or not he should tailor his sets and reps to how often and copiously he's getting off. it's manners just as much as it's degree of knowledge, to me. and the idea that men *feel free* to advise women about when and how and why they should lift in relation to such a thing - this, to me, is where the bias comes in.

I as a woman who's studied quite a lot of biology would not find it "not my place" to advise men on any aspect of male sexual health that I happen to be knowledgable about. In fact I have done so on occasion, online and in person. And I wouldn't be offended in the least by a man who has studied biology giving his opinion on menstruation.... I'm not offended by ignorant men doing so either, so long as they don't get their knickers in a twist when corrected on it. (even then I'd be annoyed, not offended)

There are just as many women on this forum who will advise men about sexual health matters as vice versa... I think it's better for society in general when these kinds of topics are discussed openly and are not considered as taboo for either gender. And like I said, a male ob-gyn quite possibly saved my life and my baby's life... you think I'm going to tell him he's not allowed to have an opinion on whether I need a c-section or not because he's never given birth and never will? Most women don't know all that much about their reproductive system... find out how many grown women think they only have two "holes" down there, i.e. they don't know that the urethra is a separate opening to the vagina.... honestly, being female doesn't mean you know biology better than men.

As for manners, it's good manners for people to be able to discuss sexual health as grown adults. All this "person x has no right to comment because they're the wrong gender" is backwards. And sexist.

> . I don't like coming in here reading that weight lifting is a traditionally male thing and that people who are supporting it over Zumba/cardio/etc are being anti-women

okay, well, i do think that you missed the point. insert the words 'SEEN AS' at the start of it all, and i think that's closer to what i got from it all, personally. i'm still not sure how or why any of this had to become such a big deal anyway.

no, the words "seen as" is not relevent, because it's not sexist to disparage something that's "seen as" being for women. those things are being disparaged because they're not effective ways for people of either gender to achieve the physique that they say they want. And weight lifting is. I'm assuming that you're in this forum because you already know that heavy weight lifting is a much better way to get a low body fat percentage and a firm, toned physique... so you understand that point. Well, that's why you get so much promotion of weight lifting over cardio. It's got nothing to do with anyone disparaging women, and everything to do with it being a better form of exercise to achieve the goals that most people on here say they want (i.e. low body fat, firm. toned body)

So it seems that it comes down to the fact that you're assuming that people who are disparaging so-called "female" exercises are doing so because they're anti-women, not because those exercises are ineffective ways for women to achieve the kind of body that most say they want.

As for why it matters - the statement I objected to is basically saying that people who promote weight lifting over cardio are anti-women..... you don't see that as something that should be challenged?

canadianlbs

sigh. i came back to this 3 or 4 times over the past 24 hours, and i guess i just don't have the whatever-it-takes to do/say whatever-it-needs. if you still want to be interestingly and stimulatingly conversed-with on the subject then good luck with that. maybe someone else will take you up on it at this point; i just know it ain't gonna be me.

i don't like it in the general 'community' because i find it has far too high a level of gender stereotyping and unthinkingly-channelled bias against women who deviate in any meaningful way from the usual feminine stereotypes. i don't find it a meaningful, useful or friendly place for anyone who lives outside of those lines, and i don't feel that i have anything much to either add or gain by wasting time there.