What makes someone a bully?

macpatti

I agree in principal, but want to note that sometimes it's easy to get caught up in a crusade to "save" others, and that isn't always as helpful as it might feel.

I've said it before: I think the bullying discussion focuses too much on the bully. Let's support people with encouragement and strength and levelheadedness.

I agree with this, and I have learned this from you in our discussions.

FearAnLoathing

And then you have the under the radar bullys,the ones that come in and twist something someone says and keep making the jabs untill the person responds,then they cry bully.I see that alot and it gets really old.

ETA im not talking about anyone in this thread

BrettPGH

That said it should not be casually thrown about, but people do need to be aware of what constructive criticism is and outright rudeness.

I'm willing to bet that you and I agree in principle, but disagree on our definitions.

This discussion is difficult because you are talking about a spectrum of reactions, human emotions, people's own baggage/issues/etc., and the biggest variable of them all: perception.

How many of the "bullying" instances online have you seen this: "Wow, that sounded rude. Did you really mean __________?"

We don't do that. We jump to conclusions about what someone meant, the react to our assumption, then our friends swoop in to defend us, then others jump on the defenders, then we're all just yelling at each other.

Back to definitions. I agree that conceptually there is a line between constructive criticism and rudeness. The problem is that line isn't painted anywhere we can both see. Your line runs differently than mine. So anything close to that line is likely to be misinterpreted. One solution is to sanitize all communication so that anything remotely close to this line be removed. Another solution is seek clarity when you think something had crossed the line to be sure. And another solution might be to accept that your line and my line may be different and what I think of as constructive criticism may fall on the rude side of your line.

In other words, give the speaker/writer the benefit of the doubt that what they said/wrote was intended to be constructive criticism (or silly joke) - that his or her line is different.

Ken's f'n smart yo.

macpatti

That said it should not be casually thrown about, but people do need to be aware of what constructive criticism is and outright rudeness.

I'm willing to bet that you and I agree in principle, but disagree on our definitions.

This discussion is difficult because you are talking about a spectrum of reactions, human emotions, people's own baggage/issues/etc., and the biggest variable of them all: perception.

How many of the "bullying" instances online have you seen this: "Wow, that sounded rude. Did you really mean __________?"

We don't do that. We jump to conclusions about what someone meant, the react to our assumption, then our friends swoop in to defend us, then others jump on the defenders, then we're all just yelling at each other.

Back to definitions. I agree that conceptually there is a line between constructive criticism and rudeness. The problem is that line isn't painted anywhere we can both see. Your line runs differently than mine. So anything close to that line is likely to be misinterpreted. One solution is to sanitize all communication so that anything remotely close to this line be removed. Another solution is seek clarity when you think something had crossed the line to be sure. And another solution might be to accept that your line and my line may be different and what I think of as constructive criticism may fall on the rude side of your line.

In other words, give the speaker/writer the benefit of the doubt that what they said/wrote was intended to be constructive criticism (or silly joke) - that his or her line is different.

Ken's f'n smart yo.

....and Patti has good points, too. Yo.

BrettPGH

....and Patti has good points, too. Yo.

And Patti does too. Though she may have forgotten something about excessive quoting...

macpatti

And Patti does too. Though she may have forgotten something about excessive quoting...

Crap. And I was doing so well!

TDGee

I agree with you regarding the children, but respectfully disagree regarding adults. Some adults don't have the self-esteem or confidence to stand up for themselves. Some will leave MFP because they feel bullied (as you suggested), but I don't think that's fair. I think true bullying, whether of kids or adults, should be dealt with.

I agree in principal, but want to note that sometimes it's easy to get caught up in a crusade to "save" others, and that isn't always as helpful as it might feel.

With adults and children, dealing with actual bullies is complicated. Of course bullies should experience consequences. But that's only half of it. Recipients of bullying need to learn how to deal with things. Someone with a low self-esteem is probably more in need of tools for dealing with bullying than seeing the bully "get his."j

I've said it before: I think the bullying discussion focuses too much on the bully. Let's support people with encouragement and strength and levelheadedness.

I tend to agree with this point. It is seemingly very easy to get caught up by the righteous indignation of protecting the so called defenseless. What have noticed is that many of the ones crying bully are doing so in a sort of vigilante style, not waiting until the OP or "victim" has even responded to the alleged insult. it is often difficult to "stand by" while someone is being taken to task, especially if one were bringing their own life experiences along, especially for those with children. I wonder if it isn't a misdirected mothering response. Maybe a little self control on the would be superhero would be a more prudent tact to take in these situations.

As for policy making, I am afraid intent of the offender will not be taken into serious consideration. I see many similarities in this area as I do in current practices on sexual harassment and hostile work environments. The bulk of any repercussions will fall on the accused, irregardless of intent. It will become another tool in the arsenal of the professional victim, and will likely be discussed at length when we talk about our overly litigious, soft society.
JMO

LorinaLynn

At the risk of being a bit of a bully myself... I realize that a lot of people have insecurities and emotional baggage. One of the first things I learned when running my own forum was, "Never assume the other person is rational or logical." Admittedly, it's still something I struggle with. :laugh:

That said, I was picked on and bullied as a kid, and learned to deal with it by the time I was 14. There's a part of me that's really jealous of any adult who's lead such a charmed life that they think anonymous criticism on an internet forum is anywhere near the kind of stuff that I dealt with face to face as a scrawny unpopular child.

Now, maybe this is where those "assuming the other person is rational or logical" problems come in. I don't think of myself as anything special when it comes to strength of character and self-esteem, but maybe I am. Maybe I'm a lot tougher than I give myself credit for. Between being the youngest of six kids with four older brothers and the nerdy outcast in school, I'm unflappable now when it comes to silly drama.

I gotta say, the majority of times I've seen people crying, "I'm being bullied!" on here, I get the mental image of a pesky little yappy Chihuahua that's posturing and snapping at a Great Dane, then runs yipping away when the big dog barks.

macpatti

I wish I could find Mike's definition in the other thread, but the group has been deleted. Maybe he'll see this and repost it. While I agree that many times if you just take one specific rude comment on its own and you see someone cry "bully", it can seem like a chihuahua that's posturing and snapping at a great dane. However, if you were to see the same rude comments made by the same person over and over on different threads to the same person, you may feel differently. Mike and Steve can see much more than we can see.

I have seen the people who get their feelings hurt very easily, then start a topic on how they're leaving MFP because people are rude. Those are not the ones I'm referring to in my other post.

As I've told Kenneth before, I am totally guilty of being one who tries to stick up for the ones being bullied. I've even agreed that sometimes I use the tactic of "give them a taste of their own medicine". That only makes me feel bad and look as bad as the bullies. If I'm "bullying a bully", doesn't that still make me a bully? That is something I'm working on.

kennethmgreen

Macpatti - we don't always agree, but I appreciate your candor and integrity and willingness to consider other ideas.

Quoting me, you wrote:

In other words, give the speaker/writer the benefit of the doubt that what they said/wrote was intended to be constructive criticism (or silly joke) - that his or her line is different.

Of course I think it's best to give someone the benefit of the doubt. However, when there's a pattern of this behavior, sometimes pointing it out to them can be helpful.

Totally understandable reaction. I get it. But there are two issues I have with this. One, if you are giving someone the benefit of the doubt, you are giving them the benefit of the doubt. Whether it's two times or two hundred times. The act of "recognizing a pattern" implies a decision about the behavior (and its frequency). That isn't giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not disputing your right to make this decision, or whether it makes logical sense - just that you aren't giving the benefit of the doubt when you do what you have described. In order to make a judgment about the pattern, you are removing the benefit of the doubt.

The other thing I have a problem with is pointing it out to them as being helpful. If you are pointing it out in front of an audience, you are admonishing them. I think your motivation is more than just to be helpful. We all do this, I know. More important though, is how you have arrived at your conclusion and how/where you are pointing it out. When you admonish someone in a thread for offense #9, the audience may know nothing of offenses #1-8 (which, presumably, you have been giving this person the benefit of the doubt). So you can come across as overreacting. Your audience doesn't necessarily know there is a pattern of behavior.

This is why I think the anti-bully crusade is best left to the moderators. At least the calling someone out part. As you said, Mike and Steven can see more than we see. Let them do their job. If you see someone being a bully, by all means report them. But keep it private. Calling them out on the forum just invites the argument - which I think you like in some ways (you don't acquire your debate skills without an affinity for arguing). Report all nine bullying incidents. Let the mods handle it.

Not only does this save the thread from the back and forth, it might allow the "bullying" to die out. In all the times you have called someone out for bullying in a thread, how many times have your words caused the bullying to stop? Or even diminish? Doesn't the conversation just devolve into whether it was bullying, whether you are "picking on the bullies", etc.? Why do that in front of an audience? Why not report the post and ignore the person and move on? Why give the bully any more attention than he deserves? If action needs to be taken, the mods are going to have to do it anyway, right? It's not like you are able to levy consequences for someone being a bully. Don't get sucked into fighting with the bully. I think it's part of your desire to give the bully a taste of his own medicine (which you've said you are working on). You are a supportive person. I suggest reporting the bully, ignoring him in the thread, and focusing on the person you think is getting bullied.

LorinaLynn

This is why I think the anti-bully crusade is best left to the moderators. At least the calling someone out part. As you said, Mike and Steven can see more than we see. Let them do their job.

I fully agree with letting the mods mod. Sometimes, though, I wish THEY would call people out on their behavior, rather than playing totally fair and keeping it all in private messages. Especially when threads just disappear from view... it's almost as if it protects the guilty, then you get people hinting and gossiping about what went on and who said what. I know a lot of forums play this way, where the mods don't take sides (at least publicly), but I prefer a more transparent approach. If someone is being an assclown, I'd love to see the mods call them out on their assclownery. I'd rather read, "this thread is being locked because so and so is being a jerk," instead of a generic "this thread is being locked because rules are broken." Which is why I could never, ever mod on this site. I'm far too opinionated.

I wonder if SEEING people getting reprimanded publicly for specific bad behaviors would cut down on the vigilantism. At very least, maybe it would cut down on the "So and so got banned?! Whhhhhhyyyyyyy????!!!!" types of posts. "So and so was suspended for XX days because of the horrendous way he/she behaved in this thread." Or "so and so was NOT banned, but just decided to take his/her toys and go home because he/she didn't like being reprimanded in this thread."

macpatti

I'm on my phone and can't use my new quoting skills Brett taught me, so I will refrain from posting, but I am addressing this to Kenneth's last post.

Yes, I like to debate. Yes, I believe there are benefits in calling people out in a public forum. Not to bully them, but to let others know that not everyone likes to see people being jerks. Has that ever helped? Absolutely. I've gotten PM's from people I've called out before and they've turned into positive discussions. I'm not a moderator, nor is this my site so I will respect Mike's request. I've always been the person to call someone out directly as opposed to "tatting" on them, so that is part of my problem. My issue.

macpatti

You can give someone the benefit of the doubt until a pattern of behavior removes all doubt. I've also never called anyone a "bully" in a forum. I may let it be known that they're being rude, insensitive, or mean but I don't recall using the word "bully".

TheRoadDog

Insecurity.

SkateboardFi

I kinda disagree with the concept that adults can be bullied on the internet by complete strangers.

....yep.

macpatti

I kinda disagree with the concept that adults can be bullied on the internet by complete strangers.

....yep.

Why is this hard to believe? Even Mike says he sees it.

LorinaLynn

I agree that bullying might not be the right word. I'd prefer to call it harassment.

I'd prefer to call it harassment when it refers to children, too.

macpatti

I agree that bullying might not be the right word. I'd prefer to call it harassment.

I'd prefer to call it harassment when it refers to children, too.

I agree that the word "bully" gets thrown around too frequently, and often not accurately.

SkateboardFi

I agree that bullying might not be the right word. I'd prefer to call it harassment.

I'd prefer to call it harassment when it refers to children, too.

I agree that the word "bully" gets thrown around too frequently, and often not accurately.

kind of like the word "hater"

macpatti

I agree that the word "bully" gets thrown around too frequently, and often not accurately.

kind of like the word "hater"
[/quote]

Exactly. "Hater" can be someone who is jealous, someone who wants to keep others down, or someone who despises another. People will call others "haters" when they disagree with them, simply because it makes the other person look like the only reason they disagree is because they're jealous. I see that a lot here.