The nature of faith?

CasperO

The nature of faith?

Ok, here's one I struggle with. Can someone here please explain the value of "Faith"? Explain the difference between "Faith" and "Gullibility"?

When I was a kid I was raised in a church. I won't say which one, as someone might take offense and because it doesn't really matter. Anywho,,, my family and the folks at this church tried to teach me a whole bunch of stuff. A theology, a worldview, a set of ideas about the nature of reality and how the universe works. Many many (most?) kids are raised in a similar situation and indoctrinated in this way.

Well, I never bought it. I was the horribly cynical 4 year old humoring my parents at Penneys, whispering to "Santa", "so this Santa thing's just a couple weeks work - what's your real job?" (I'll never forget this conversation "I spend the rest of the year at the north pole making toys, Hohoho!" - "Yeah right, with the elves. Seriously, what do you do?" - <whispering> "I'm a manager at McDonalds, smile for the picture",,, hehehe).

Now I read what Jesus said, and thought it was pretty good stuff. Love your neighbor. Don't be a prideful *kitten*. Give to the poor. What's not to like? But the other theology of the thing never made any sense to me. Original sin? Lake of fire? Eternal torture for finite sin - as the verdict of a "loving" creator?

Now Paul thought faith was the most important thing. "By faith and not works are ye saved", "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" - which to me sounds just like, "Who are you gonna believe - me or your lying eyes?".

SO - I was taught all this stuff and I never believed it, so I knew that I didn't have "Faith". I really tried to have faith, but I could not.

I'm not a person who can choose to believe something or to disbelieve something. You can tell me I have 12 fingers, you can point out that you are an orthopedic surgeon who says that I have 12 fingers, you can threaten that I will burn in hell for all eternity if I cannot accept that I have 12 fingers,,, but at the end of the day they're my fingers and I can count them and I know that I only have 10. If you put a gun to my head I'll lie and say that I have 12 fingers, but I can not (CAN NOT!) ever really believe it.

From my point of view my family and church tried to teach me something, and I didn't believe it, because it didn't make sense to me. Some others do believe it. They have "Faith". From here "Faith" looks exactly the same as "Gullibility". How do they do that? They believe what they were taught. Magic? Angels? Demons?

I guess the real issue is that I don't believe that anybody is that much smarter and wiser than I am. I know I'm not Marily Vos Savant, but I know I'm a pretty bright guy - and Marilyn couldn't convince me of the 12 fingers thing either. I don't care who you are, if you try to tell me something that runs counter to my inner light I'm not going to be able to believe it.

SO - what's the difference? Faith & gullibility. Religion & snake oil.

TheRoadDog

I believe religion is something created to scare people into being good. I give the Bible/Qoran/Book of Mormon/Whatever more credence than I would Grimm's Fairy Tales and find them far less interesting.

Absolutley no person can tell you what happens after you die beyond decomposition. When someone can give definitive proof of life after death and/or a supreme being, that's when I'll get down on my knees and pray. But it will never happen.

Faith means believing what someone tells you without proof.

I'm treat others with respect, because that's how I want to be treated, not because I'll suffer some fictional punishment if I don't.

You get one chance at your life; don't *kitten* it up.

TheRoadDog

By the way, I have been exposed to many faiths in my life. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic School when I was very young.
My 1st wife was a Russian Jew.
My 2nd wife was an Italian Catholic.
My 3rd wife was a Czech Christian.
My 4th wife is Heinz 57 that was raised Mormon.

I've been lucky enough to hear ALL the fairy tales.

Regmama

Casper, I'm just trying to break it down...faith also teaches that one should not kill, steal, be envious, etc. To believe that is also gullible? Or is it a picking and choosing of teachings that do and do not fall under the classification of gullibility? I really would like you to be more specific because your statements are pretty darn vague? So, unless you believe that murder and such are good, you must have a little faith or belief in some sense of right and wrong, of a moral code?

mikajoanow

I don't think I am smarter than anyone else either. I have come to the conclusion that people are just hardwired for it. I don't think they can help it any more than I can.

LuckyLeprechaun

Casper, I'm just trying to break it down...faith also teaches that one should not kill, steal, be envious, etc. To believe that is also gullible? Or is it a picking and choosing of teachings that do and do not fall under the classification of gullibility? I really would like you to be more specific because your statements are pretty darn vague? So, unless you believe that murder and such are good, you must have a little faith or belief in some sense of right and wrong, of a moral code?

having a moral code is choosing your behavior based on what you thin is right or wrong. Faith means believing in things that have no evidence for their truth.

Those two things are not dependent on one another.

CasperO

Of course I have a moral code. I understand right and wrong - but that does not derive from any religion. I'm not a sociopath, I can empathize with other people, I understand that others are human beings just like myself and just as I would not want to be harmed they do not wish to be harmed either.

I don't need an angry invisible man in the sky to tell me not to rape and kill. The idea that the unreligious might be lawless because they don't subscribe to a list of 10 commandments or fear divine retribution is a false argument.

My question is - what is the difference between faith (believing in what you can't see) and gullibility (believing that the prince in Nigeria will send you money)? Is there any difference. I was never able to believe what I was taught - some people did believe it - how did they do that?

Regmama

Of course I have a moral code. I understand right and wrong - but that does not derive from any religion. I'm not a sociopath, I can empathize with other people, I understand that others are human beings just like myself and just as I would not want to be harmed they do not wish to be harmed either.

I don't need an angry invisible man in the sky to tell me not to rape and kill. The idea that the unreligious might be lawless because they don't subscribe to a list of 10 commandments or fear divine retribution is a false argument.

My question is - what is the difference between faith (believing in what you can't see) and gullibility (believing that the prince in Nigeria will send you money)? Is there any difference. I was never able to believe what I was taught - some people did believe it - how did they do that?

So, you believe that there is a natural law built within us? Your original post mentioned values tied into belief whichis why I posed the questions I did.

Why do I believe in the just and merciful God (and I am sorry that your church did not teach you the full true nature of God)? Well, for the same reason I have faith that I have a mind. I cannot see my mind (brain, yes, mind, no) but I don't doubt it's presence because I have experienced it. Same with God, I have experienced God. I have also experienced demons. And I have also made myself open to receiving grace and faith (yes, I think one has to be willing to open themselves up to the possibility in order to have faith).

TheRoadDog

Of course I have a moral code. I understand right and wrong - but that does not derive from any religion. I'm not a sociopath, I can empathize with other people, I understand that others are human beings just like myself and just as I would not want to be harmed they do not wish to be harmed either.

I don't need an angry invisible man in the sky to tell me not to rape and kill. The idea that the unreligious might be lawless because they don't subscribe to a list of 10 commandments or fear divine retribution is a false argument.

My question is - what is the difference between faith (believing in what you can't see) and gullibility (believing that the prince in Nigeria will send you money)? Is there any difference. I was never able to believe what I was taught - some people did believe it - how did they do that?

So, you believe that there is a natural law built within us? Your original post mentioned values tied into belief whichis why I posed the questions I did.

Why do I believe in the just and merciful God (and I am sorry that your church did not teach you the full true nature of God)? Well, for the same reason I have faith that I have a mind. I cannot see my mind (brain, yes, mind, no) but I don't doubt it's presence because I have experienced it. Same with God, I have experienced God. I have also experienced demons. And I have also made myself open to receiving grace and faith (yes, I think one has to be willing to open themselves up to the possibility in order to have faith).

We can't be respectul of others, treat people as we want to be treated unless a god tells us?

We can't come to the conclusion that it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal or kill without a god commanding us?

Regmama

Of course I have a moral code. I understand right and wrong - but that does not derive from any religion. I'm not a sociopath, I can empathize with other people, I understand that others are human beings just like myself and just as I would not want to be harmed they do not wish to be harmed either.

I don't need an angry invisible man in the sky to tell me not to rape and kill. The idea that the unreligious might be lawless because they don't subscribe to a list of 10 commandments or fear divine retribution is a false argument.

My question is - what is the difference between faith (believing in what you can't see) and gullibility (believing that the prince in Nigeria will send you money)? Is there any difference. I was never able to believe what I was taught - some people did believe it - how did they do that?

So, you believe that there is a natural law built within us? Your original post mentioned values tied into belief whichis why I posed the questions I did.

Why do I believe in the just and merciful God (and I am sorry that your church did not teach you the full true nature of God)? Well, for the same reason I have faith that I have a mind. I cannot see my mind (brain, yes, mind, no) but I don't doubt it's presence because I have experienced it. Same with God, I have experienced God. I have also experienced demons. And I have also made myself open to receiving grace and faith (yes, I think one has to be willing to open themselves up to the possibility in order to have faith).

We can't be respectul of others, treat people as we want to be treated unless a god tells us?

We can't come to the conclusion that it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal or kill without a god commanding us?

That, my dear, is Natural Law. Who put thtat in your mind? It just came out of nowhere? And, if one denies God, that too is faith, faith that He doesn't exist, or maybe it's just a serious gamble? And, if those who have faith (or gullibility as you're wondering) in God, why do you care? It doesn't affect you. Why do those who do not believe in God insist on pushing their non-belief faith on everyone else?

CasperO

I am not an atheist, I'm agnostic. I'm open to the possibilty that there might be a creator. I just don't know, I am not conviced that any faith has the right answer and knows the true nature of the creator.

"And, if those who have faith (or gullibility as you're wondering) in God, why do you care? It doesn't affect you. Why do those who do not believe in God insist on pushing their non-belief faith on everyone else? "

I'm pushing nothing. I just asked a question. My parents taught me Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and G-d. 2 out of 3 turned out to be a tall tale, and I have no hard definitive evidence that they were right about the 3rd. So - how is it that one gets to where you are?

Note that I never said that you are wrong, I just said I don't see it that way. Big diff. I've learned from your responses ma'am, and I appreciate it.

Regmama

I am not an atheist, I'm agnostic. I'm open to the possibilty that there might be a creator. I just don't know, I am not conviced that any faith has the right answer and knows the true nature of the creator.

"And, if those who have faith (or gullibility as you're wondering) in God, why do you care? It doesn't affect you. Why do those who do not believe in God insist on pushing their non-belief faith on everyone else? "

I'm pushing nothing. I just asked a question. My parents taught me Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and G-d. 2 out of 3 turned out to be a tall tale, and I have no hard definitive evidence that they were right about the 3rd. So - how is it that one gets to where you are?

Note that I never said that you are wrong, I just said I don't see it that way. Big diff. I've learned from your responses ma'am, and I appreciate it.

Sorry, I should have specified the general "you".

How did I get to where I am? Well, I, like you, was skeptical when I was a child. I remember sitting in mass (I'm Catholic, attended Catholic school from 1st through 13th - first year of college) in first or second grade wondering if the priests and teachers were lying to all of us about God and Jesus just so that they could get us to sit still. My daughter, since she was two, has wondered if we're all real or just characters in a book that a giant is reading. I think it's healthy to question because knowing the why's is so important.

So, how did I get from wondering at the age of 7 if it was just a fib to believing fully that God exists, that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, that the Holy Spirit is for real? Well, it was just a knowledge in the heart. I have also had a few paranormal experiences in my house. I have felt my heart being touched by God, but in the end, it required my willingness to be open to the possibility of God being for real. From that, I prayed (even though I couldn't feel or see the reality). Why did I pray? Because it didn't hurt anyone and it didn't waste my time. Then I began to try to see things on a deeper level, beyond the surface. It wasn't an overnight conversion of heart. It is a continual conversion of heart, of going to deeper levels than where I was even a day ago.

I hope that that helps explain where I am coming from and how I got to where I am. And truly, I have struggled. I think a lot of believers have at one point, questioned, but many will not admit that.

poisongirl6485

OP just said pretty much everything I feel and try to explain about my being agnostic, just in a better way. :flowerforyou:

I'm open to the possibility of there being a god. If one exists, I just don't think he is anything like any current religious doctrine tries to push. Until then, I can't force myself into believing something that I cannot accept as true. Blind faith doesn't work for me.

CasperO

I think I'm a pan-theist, in that I respond to the power and deity of the universe though I don't claim to understand a creator. I percieve all existence as 'G-d" and myself as a tiny part of it.

I feel the awesome power of the world I live in and the humanity of my brothers and sisters. I have been moved to tears and I knelt and prayed in an 800 year old church in Ireland. I felt the presence of the ancients on ground that was holy to the celts 3000 years before christ - and my wife heard them singing as plain as day. I felt something astounding at the pyramids. I also was touched each of the 3 times I've witnessed childbirth. I'm a very spiritual person and I strongly believe that there's more going on than just biology & chemistry & software.

I'm not an atheist, but I do not claim to know and understand the nature of the creator - but if he-she-it IS an intelligent being, I believe there are more important things to worry about than who I date or what I eat on friday. As I said, the power of Jesus' morals and ethics (who I do acknowledge as a real historical figure) is obvious - it's the surrounding theology that I could never believe in. To me the theology I was taught was just another in a long line of faith traditions - pagan - animist, etc.etc. I saw no particular reason to believe that my family's teachings Re: G-d were more or less valid than the teachings about Zeus, or Tarawa or Ra.

I practice in a Unitarian Universalist church and I'm finding my way. Thanks for sharing your point of view.

macpatti

Faith means believing what someone tells you without proof.

I agree with RoadDog here. You can have faith without being gullible. People believe in many things we can't see or don't have proof of. Examples that come to my mind are love, gravity, wind. We can't see those things. There's no proof of their existence, but we can see their effects. So, I don't think that all people of faith are gullible.

mikajoanow

Of course I have a moral code. I understand right and wrong - but that does not derive from any religion. I'm not a sociopath, I can empathize with other people, I understand that others are human beings just like myself and just as I would not want to be harmed they do not wish to be harmed either.

I don't need an angry invisible man in the sky to tell me not to rape and kill. The idea that the unreligious might be lawless because they don't subscribe to a list of 10 commandments or fear divine retribution is a false argument.

My question is - what is the difference between faith (believing in what you can't see) and gullibility (believing that the prince in Nigeria will send you money)? Is there any difference. I was never able to believe what I was taught - some people did believe it - how did they do that?

So, you believe that there is a natural law built within us? Your original post mentioned values tied into belief whichis why I posed the questions I did.

Why do I believe in the just and merciful God (and I am sorry that your church did not teach you the full true nature of God)? Well, for the same reason I have faith that I have a mind. I cannot see my mind (brain, yes, mind, no) but I don't doubt it's presence because I have experienced it. Same with God, I have experienced God. I have also experienced demons. And I have also made myself open to receiving grace and faith (yes, I think one has to be willing to open themselves up to the possibility in order to have faith).

We can't be respectul of others, treat people as we want to be treated unless a god tells us?

We can't come to the conclusion that it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal or kill without a god commanding us?

That, my dear, is Natural Law. Who put thtat in your mind? It just came out of nowhere? And, if one denies God, that too is faith, faith that He doesn't exist, or maybe it's just a serious gamble? And, if those who have faith (or gullibility as you're wondering) in God, why do you care? It doesn't affect you. Why do those who do not believe in God insist on pushing their non-belief faith on everyone else?

This is a debate board, why are you giving him a hard time about asking this question? No one is pushing anything on you. You are on this board of your own free will and on a debate board people have discussions like this one.


Evolution, survival is just as good as answer as "god put natural law in your brain". In fact its better. Humans would not be where they are today if it were not for their ability to work together.


For me, I have the same faith that the Christian god doesn't exist in the same way that I don't believe there is a magical teapot orbiting the sun. They both seem very improbable. But I also don't care if other people believe it. But I thought I should remark on some of your other comments as well.

Azdak

There is plenty of empirical evidence that humans have an inherent sense of right and wrong. Studies have been done in which groups with traditional religious training and groups who have never been exposed to religious ideas were presented with a series of "moral" issues and asked to comment on the "right" course of action. There was no difference in the "moral" response between the two groups. You can also see similar themes --e.g. the so-called "golden rule" --that developed independently in all major religions, as well as "traditional" moral concepts that were recorded long before Moses, the 10 Commandments, JC, etc.

Obviously, this "inherent" sense does not govern all of our behaviors, since there is indeed evil in the world. But there is no evidence that I know of that suggests that the organized religion has any effect on whether or not people engage in good or bad behaviors.

Maybe this should go back in the "controversial opinions" thread, but I believe that, in general, people are good IN SPITE OF religion, not because of it. Good people show their goodness in many ways--for various reasons, some will express their inherent nature within the context of a traditional religious structure, but just as many will not. I think that whether a person has an internal or external locus of control affects how they relate to traditional religious structures.

Azdak

I'm not a person who can choose to believe something or to disbelieve something. You can tell me I have 12 fingers, you can point out that you are an orthopedic surgeon who says that I have 12 fingers, you can threaten that I will burn in hell for all eternity if I cannot accept that I have 12 fingers,,, but at the end of the day they're my fingers and I can count them and I know that I only have 10. If you put a gun to my head I'll lie and say that I have 12 fingers, but I can not (CAN NOT!) ever really believe it.

I SO want to become Pope of the Church of 12 Fingers.

macpatti

A person can have faith without being religious and without being gullible. Like I said, I'm sure most people have faith in love, wind, gravity for example. We cannot see these things, but we see their effects without any proof. So, would we all agree that faith is not limited to only religious people?

servilia

You don't need faith in wind and gravity.

macpatti

You don't need faith in wind and gravity.

Why not? You can't see either one and the only "proof" is the effects we see. No?

servilia

You don't need faith in wind and gravity.

Why not? You can't see either one and the only "proof" is the effects we see. No?

No. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.

adrian_indy

The word faith has been hijacked. It used to mean that you expected a certain thing to happen based on past experiences. If you go to a bank to get a loan, the bank looks at your credit and income, and decides whether or not they have faith that you can pay this back. Now faith has turned into "blind faith", where people just believe in bullcrap because they want to. Besides, the whole concept of faith is another leading factor in why I am a non-believer. Why would ancient man or biblical people need faith. If Moses parted the Red Sea, and Jesus could raise the dead, and they saw this, why do they need faith? I don't need faith in something I see happening. So I think they talk about having faith because no one actually ever saw these miracles in the first place.

macpatti

The word faith has been hijacked. It used to mean that you expected a certain thing to happen based on past experiences. If you go to a bank to get a loan, the bank looks at your credit and income, and decides whether or not they have faith that you can pay this back. Now faith has turned into "blind faith", where people just believe in bullcrap because they want to. Besides, the whole concept of faith is another leading factor in why I am a non-believer. Why would ancient man or biblical people need faith. If Moses parted the Red Sea, and Jesus could raise the dead, and they saw this, why do they need faith? I don't need faith in something I see happening. So I think they talk about having faith because no one actually ever saw these miracles in the first place.

The people who witnessed those things don't need faith; they saw it themselves. It's rest of us who rely on our faith. I would say you're correct when you say some people believe because they want to . Exactly. I want to believe, I choose to believe, I can't deny the existence of God. Those who don't, choose not to because they don't want to.

macpatti

no. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.

You trust that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. Can you feel love, or do you have faith that your SO loves you? For me, I can look out at the trees, sky, grass and see God's work. I can feel God's love as I do my husband's love. I have faith in the theological history of religions, as I have faith in history books retelling events in more recent history.

We do not have to be religious to have faith. We do not have to be gullible to believe in things we cannot see and which cannot be proven.

adrian_indy

no. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.

You trust that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. Can you feel love, or do you have faith that your SO loves you? For me, I can look out at the trees, sky, grass and see God's work. I can feel God's love as I do my husband's love. I have faith in the theological history of religions, as I have faith in history books retelling events in more recent history.

We do not have to be religious to have faith. We do not have to be gullible to believe in things we cannot see and which cannot be proven.

Well, if it's not gullible to believe in things I can't see and take people's word who lived thousands of years ago, I now believe in the Cyclops, Sirens, Sorcerors, Minitoars, Hydras, Titans, Hercules. Heck, thousands of people in modern times have claimed to see bigfoot. I'll just take their word for it.

macpatti

Well, if it's not gullible to believe in things I can't see and take people's word who lived thousands of years ago, I now believe in the Cyclops, Sirens, Sorcerors, Minitoars, Hydras, Titans, Hercules. Heck, thousands of people in modern times have claimed to see bigfoot. I'll just take their word for it.

Have you heard of anyone willing to die standing by their statement that they saw bigfoot, or any of those other things? You cannot say that ALL faith is gullibility.

adrian_indy

No, but seen people throughout history willing to die for their belief in Zues, Odin, Apollo, Ahura Mazda and countless other Gods. Or how about Lord Xenu. Lots of americans think that we have aliens souls because the intergalactic warlord Xenu sent refugee aliens to earth and then tried to suck them up with soul harvesters. I have also known a lot of muslims willing to die for what they believe in as well. So who is right?

macpatti

No, but seen people throughout history willing to die for their belief in Zues, Odin, Apollo, Ahura Mazda and countless other Gods. Or how about Lord Xenu. Lots of americans think that we have aliens souls because the intergalactic warlord Xenu sent refugee aliens to earth and then tried to suck them up with soul harvesters. I have also known a lot of muslims willing to die for what they believe in as well. So who is right?

You know we won't know who is right until our death. I believe that Muslims have died for their religion, no doubt. Because Muslims to this day are willing to die for their belief in someone they've never seen just makes me more certain that the people who died saying they actually SAW what Jesus did, or saw him rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven are to be believed.

adrian_indy

Well, then you have to be a polytheist because if all it takes is dying for a belief to prove to you that people actually witnessed miracles, then I guess thousands of different gods must be real.

macpatti

Well, then you have to be a polytheist because if all it takes is dying for a belief to prove to you that people actually witnessed miracles, then I guess thousands of different gods must be real.

No, Adrian. I believe in one God. I can do that while still believing that others believe in their own gods. I can believe you are an atheist without being an atheist myself. I choose to believe the people who witnessed Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension because they were willing to go to death for that claim. I understand that others choose to believe in their own faiths for different reasons.

Further, I respect others who have a different faith than mine. I also enjoy learning about other people's faiths. I even enjoy learning about atheism. My point in this thread is 1) faith isn't just a religious thing and 2) faith does not always equal gullibility.