The nature of faith?
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You don't need faith in wind and gravity.
Why not? You can't see either one and the only "proof" is the effects we see. No?
No. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.0 -
The word faith has been hijacked. It used to mean that you expected a certain thing to happen based on past experiences. If you go to a bank to get a loan, the bank looks at your credit and income, and decides whether or not they have faith that you can pay this back. Now faith has turned into "blind faith", where people just believe in bullcrap because they want to. Besides, the whole concept of faith is another leading factor in why I am a non-believer. Why would ancient man or biblical people need faith. If Moses parted the Red Sea, and Jesus could raise the dead, and they saw this, why do they need faith? I don't need faith in something I see happening. So I think they talk about having faith because no one actually ever saw these miracles in the first place.0
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The word faith has been hijacked. It used to mean that you expected a certain thing to happen based on past experiences. If you go to a bank to get a loan, the bank looks at your credit and income, and decides whether or not they have faith that you can pay this back. Now faith has turned into "blind faith", where people just believe in bullcrap because they want to. Besides, the whole concept of faith is another leading factor in why I am a non-believer. Why would ancient man or biblical people need faith. If Moses parted the Red Sea, and Jesus could raise the dead, and they saw this, why do they need faith? I don't need faith in something I see happening. So I think they talk about having faith because no one actually ever saw these miracles in the first place.
The people who witnessed those things don't need faith; they saw it themselves. It's rest of us who rely on our faith. I would say you're correct when you say some people believe because they want to . Exactly. I want to believe, I choose to believe, I can't deny the existence of God. Those who don't, choose not to because they don't want to.0 -
no. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.
You trust that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. Can you feel love, or do you have faith that your SO loves you? For me, I can look out at the trees, sky, grass and see God's work. I can feel God's love as I do my husband's love. I have faith in the theological history of religions, as I have faith in history books retelling events in more recent history.
We do not have to be religious to have faith. We do not have to be gullible to believe in things we cannot see and which cannot be proven.0 -
no. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.
You trust that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. Can you feel love, or do you have faith that your SO loves you? For me, I can look out at the trees, sky, grass and see God's work. I can feel God's love as I do my husband's love. I have faith in the theological history of religions, as I have faith in history books retelling events in more recent history.
We do not have to be religious to have faith. We do not have to be gullible to believe in things we cannot see and which cannot be proven.
Well, if it's not gullible to believe in things I can't see and take people's word who lived thousands of years ago, I now believe in the Cyclops, Sirens, Sorcerors, Minitoars, Hydras, Titans, Hercules. Heck, thousands of people in modern times have claimed to see bigfoot. I'll just take their word for it.0 -
Well, if it's not gullible to believe in things I can't see and take people's word who lived thousands of years ago, I now believe in the Cyclops, Sirens, Sorcerors, Minitoars, Hydras, Titans, Hercules. Heck, thousands of people in modern times have claimed to see bigfoot. I'll just take their word for it.
Have you heard of anyone willing to die standing by their statement that they saw bigfoot, or any of those other things? You cannot say that ALL faith is gullibility.0 -
No, but seen people throughout history willing to die for their belief in Zues, Odin, Apollo, Ahura Mazda and countless other Gods. Or how about Lord Xenu. Lots of americans think that we have aliens souls because the intergalactic warlord Xenu sent refugee aliens to earth and then tried to suck them up with soul harvesters. I have also known a lot of muslims willing to die for what they believe in as well. So who is right?0
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No, but seen people throughout history willing to die for their belief in Zues, Odin, Apollo, Ahura Mazda and countless other Gods. Or how about Lord Xenu. Lots of americans think that we have aliens souls because the intergalactic warlord Xenu sent refugee aliens to earth and then tried to suck them up with soul harvesters. I have also known a lot of muslims willing to die for what they believe in as well. So who is right?
You know we won't know who is right until our death. I believe that Muslims have died for their religion, no doubt. Because Muslims to this day are willing to die for their belief in someone they've never seen just makes me more certain that the people who died saying they actually SAW what Jesus did, or saw him rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven are to be believed.0 -
Well, then you have to be a polytheist because if all it takes is dying for a belief to prove to you that people actually witnessed miracles, then I guess thousands of different gods must be real.0
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Well, then you have to be a polytheist because if all it takes is dying for a belief to prove to you that people actually witnessed miracles, then I guess thousands of different gods must be real.
No, Adrian. I believe in one God. I can do that while still believing that others believe in their own gods. I can believe you are an atheist without being an atheist myself. I choose to believe the people who witnessed Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension because they were willing to go to death for that claim. I understand that others choose to believe in their own faiths for different reasons.
Further, I respect others who have a different faith than mine. I also enjoy learning about other people's faiths. I even enjoy learning about atheism. My point in this thread is 1) faith isn't just a religious thing and 2) faith does not always equal gullibility.0 -
Well, then you have to be a polytheist because if all it takes is dying for a belief to prove to you that people actually witnessed miracles, then I guess thousands of different gods must be real.
No, Adrian. I believe in one God. I can do that while still believing that others believe in their own gods. I can believe you are an atheist without being an atheist myself. I choose to believe the people who witnessed Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension because they were willing to go to death for that claim. I understand that others choose to believe in their own faiths for different reasons.
Yeah, but you said that you had faith in your god because people were willing to die for it. I was just pointing out the fact that the argument presented that people dying proves the reality of Jesus's miracles equally validates every other religion. Come to think of it, a lot of atheists have been willing to die for their belief of no god? So I guess were back to square one. Then again, a lot of Christians, atheists, Muslims, and Jews aren't willing to die for their beliefs. I dare say the vast majority.0 -
Yeah, but you said that you had faith in your god because people were willing to die for it. I was just pointing out the fact that the argument presented that people dying proves the reality of Jesus's miracles equally validates every other religion. Come to think of it, a lot of atheists have been willing to die for their belief of no god? So I guess were back to square one. Then again, a lot of Christians, atheists, Muslims, and Jews aren't willing to die for their beliefs. I dare say the vast majority.
What I said was, I believe the eye witness accounts because those people were willing to die for their claims. Not just die for their "faith", but died standing by something they saw happen. I'm certainly not going to die standing by something I'm lying about. I don't know many who would do that.0 -
Yeah, but you said that you had faith in your god because people were willing to die for it. I was just pointing out the fact that the argument presented that people dying proves the reality of Jesus's miracles equally validates every other religion. Come to think of it, a lot of atheists have been willing to die for their belief of no god? So I guess were back to square one. Then again, a lot of Christians, atheists, Muslims, and Jews aren't willing to die for their beliefs. I dare say the vast majority.
What I said was, I believe the eye witness accounts because those people were willing to die for their claims. Not just die for their "faith", but died standing by something they saw happen. I'm certainly not going to die standing by something I'm lying about. I don't know many who would do that.
Yeah, but then I could turn around and say that majority of people who were witnessing those events didn't convert. So I have faith that nothing happened.0 -
Yeah, but then I could turn around and say that majority of people who were witnessing those events didn't convert. So I have faith that nothing happened.
Correct. Many did not convert even after witnessing those events because they were afraid. Even more reason, in my mind, to believe those who were brave enough to die for it. Again, I don't know many people who would die a horrible death for a lie.
I respect that you have faith that nothing happened, though.0 -
Yeah, but then I could turn around and say that majority of people who were witnessing those events didn't convert. So I have faith that nothing happened.
Correct. Many did not convert even after witnessing those events because they were afraid. Even more reason, in my mind, to believe those who were brave enough to die for it. Again, I don't know many people who would die a horrible death for a lie.
I respect that you have faith that nothing happened, though.
Yes, but didn't thousands if not millions of people through out history in Europe, South and Cental America, North America and Africa die resisting their people's forced conversion to Christianity. Many of their ancestors saw miracles and had absolute faith that it actually happened. And personally, since I have never seen a miracle, I have lots of faith that stuff like that doesn't happen. I'm not making an anti-christian or anti-religious argument at this point, I just think that the current argument you are using is flawed.
You could make a better argument saying that "I have faith in Jesus because of archeological and historica; evidence suggests he really lived, and there are recovered letters speaking of his miracles. Many religions do not have that kind of evidence." Now if you gave those kind of reasons for you having faith, while I might still argue that I still don't think it's enough evidence for me to believe, you would be on more solid footing than with the argument you are making now.0 -
You could make a better argument saying that "I have faith in Jesus because of archeological and historica; evidence suggests he really lived, and there are recovered letters speaking of his miracles. Many religions do not have that kind of evidence." Now if you gave those kind of reasons for you having faith, while I might still argue that I still don't think it's enough evidence for me to believe, you would be on more solid footing than with the argument you are making now.
Come on, Adrian. Surely you know I have much more of an argument for the existence of God than just what I've been discussing here. I was just giving you an example. I didn't come in this thread to argue His existence. Like I've said several times, my points in this thread are 1) a person can have faith without being religious and 2) faith does not always equal gullibility.0 -
You could make a better argument saying that "I have faith in Jesus because of archeological and historica; evidence suggests he really lived, and there are recovered letters speaking of his miracles. Many religions do not have that kind of evidence." Now if you gave those kind of reasons for you having faith, while I might still argue that I still don't think it's enough evidence for me to believe, you would be on more solid footing than with the argument you are making now.
Come on, Adrian. Surely you know I have much more of an argument for the existence of God than just what I've been discussing here. I was just giving you an example. I didn't come in this thread to argue His existence. Like I've said several times, my points in this thread are 1) a person can have faith without being religious and 2) faith does not always equal gullibility.
That was precisely what I just said. I just happened to disagree with this particular argument style, not the argument itself. I'm sure you could be here for hours telling me why you believe in Jesus using philosophy, history, archeology and scientific theory, and I don't want to get into that either.
But I am pointing out that having faith or a belief in something based on ancient peoples willingess to die for what they supposedly saw opens the door for every miracle, every god, demigod and messiah throughout history. There is historical records that Ghengis Khans people thought he was born of a virgin. I think they were wrong. But using your argument, it would be true because Khan's followers were willing to die for it (and they were, those damn mongolians!).0 -
no. We've had science prove these things. Plus I can feel the wind. And I know there's gravity because I don't go floating off into space.
You trust that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. Can you feel love, or do you have faith that your SO loves you? For me, I can look out at the trees, sky, grass and see God's work. I can feel God's love as I do my husband's love. I have faith in the theological history of religions, as I have faith in history books retelling events in more recent history.
We do not have to be religious to have faith. We do not have to be gullible to believe in things we cannot see and which cannot be proven.
At least I won't be sent to a lake of fire for eternity if I don't believe in love.
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You could make a better argument saying that "I have faith in Jesus because of archeological and historica; evidence suggests he really lived, and there are recovered letters speaking of his miracles. Many religions do not have that kind of evidence." Now if you gave those kind of reasons for you having faith, while I might still argue that I still don't think it's enough evidence for me to believe, you would be on more solid footing than with the argument you are making now.
Come on, Adrian. Surely you know I have much more of an argument for the existence of God than just what I've been discussing here. I was just giving you an example. I didn't come in this thread to argue His existence. Like I've said several times, my points in this thread are 1) a person can have faith without being religious and 2) faith does not always equal gullibility.
That was precisely what I just said. I just happened to disagree with this particular argument style, not the argument itself. I'm sure you could be here for hours telling me why you believe in Jesus using philosophy, history, archeology and scientific theory, and I don't want to get into that either.
But I am pointing out that having faith or a belief in something based on ancient peoples willingess to die for what they supposedly saw opens the door for every miracle, every god, demigod and messiah throughout history. There is historical records that Ghengis Khans people thought he was born of a virgin. I think they were wrong. But using your argument, it would be true because Khan's followers were willing to die for it (and they were, those damn mongolians!).
SO you guys agree....FABULOUS!!!! :happy:0 -
I think were we are treading is in a place where there is no set definition for anything we have discussed. Many of the things mentioned by some of you wonderful debater’s takes us to places where we do not know, it’s more to do inherent feelings and roads our lives have taken.
I believe in an ultimate truth of peace and love, I can’t see it, but my soul tells me it’s right. I find that I am comforted by a feeling that I am never alone (is it God or a goddess, is it some tick that we are all born with, who knows). I gave up on the term religious a long time ago, I am spiritual and that involves faith. I think to address the proposed topic you must separate the term faith from any religious connotation, people can have faith and not believe in a higher power. I have faith in myself and humanity, is this a gullible notion…most likely, I cannot control the whole of humanity, but if I did not hope then the world would be a very dark place.0
