Womens roll in society
Replies
-
If I'm working outside the home, someone is taking direct care of my children at home. My point is that although our roles have changed, I don't know that they've necessarily doubled. We're not in two places at one time.
My last statement was, "we're not in two places at one time". How can you disagree with that?I do disagree with your last statement.0 -
You do realize that a SAHM's schedule of hours is often the same, if not more, than this. Right?No. We just work much, much longer hours.
Here's a typical snapshot of my day for you.
6am - up. Mark student work
7am - get my daughter up. Make lunches, tidy round, do her hair. walk the dogs.
8.30 am - school run
9.15 am arrive at work. Work through. No lunch break.
2.30 pm leave work to pick daughter up from school (3.30 if she has sport)
3.15 - 5pm - spend some time with daughter, do domestic work
5-6pm - put in an hour's work
6pm make and eat dinner
7.30pm put in an hour's work
8.30 pm daughter to bed
8.30-10pm gym
10pm - midnight - put in two hour's work0 -
ROFL.
Honest to god, when I was a stay at home mother, my hours were NOTHING like that. And I was writing a PhD at the time. Don't try to talk it up, it makes you look a little silly.
Have you ever been a working mother?0 -
When I was a SAHM, my hours were similar to that. You sound very silly for assuming everyone has the same hours. I've worked out of the home for the past 20 years. I have a 24, 20, 17, 11, and 9 year old. I'm not sure what your point of contention is with anything I've said.ROFL.
Honest to god, when I was a stay at home mother, my hours were NOTHING like that. And I was writing a PhD at the time. Don't try to talk it up, it makes you look a little silly.
Have you ever been a working mother?0 -
What's my point of contention? That if you are a stay at home mother, somehow managing to put in the same hours as a working mother who gets maybe an hour or two a day of external childcare support, you might want to look at your routine as you're clearly not working efficiently. sorry i thought my point of contention was pretty clear. Working mothers tend to essentially work two jobs. a double shift. stay at home mothers do one of those two. no problem with that, i greatly admire sahm and respect their choices. but in relation to the focus of the thread, and your apparent suggestion that the work commitment is similar - well that's patently untrue.0
-
I see...........okay, you win the Mother of the Year Award!What's my point of contention? That if you are a stay at home mother, somehow managing to put in the same hours as a working mother who gets maybe an hour or two a day of external childcare support, you might want to look at your routine as you're clearly not working efficiently. sorry i thought my point of contention was pretty clear. Working mothers tend to essentially work two jobs. a double shift. stay at home mothers do one of those two. no problem with that, i greatly admire sahm and respect their choices. but in relation to the focus of the thread, and your apparent suggestion that the work commitment is similar - well that's patently untrue.0 -
Ah yes. ad hominem. the last refuge of those who can't support an argument with logic or evidence.
You'll note i made no claim to superior parenting though, love. i merely pointed out that your suggestion of equivalent time spent in work was unsustainable.0 -
Says the person who called me silly and was ROLFing at what I posted.Ah yes. ad hominem. the last refuge of those who can't support an argument with logic or evidence.0 -
I am a mother who works outside the home, but I will be the first one to admit that SAHMs spend equal amount of hours a day "working" as those of us who do it outside the home. Why is that a problem for you? I'm not suggesting that mothers who work outside the home have it any easier, though. I just don't buy into the argument that working moms have "double" the work.i merely pointed out that your suggestion of equivalent time spent in work was unsustainable.0 -
I am a mother who works outside the home, but I will be the first one to admit that SAHMs spend equal amount of hours a day "working" as those of us who do it outside the home. Why is that a problem for you? I'm not suggesting that mothers who work outside the home have it any easier, though. I just don't buy into the argument that working moms have "double" the work.i merely pointed out that your suggestion of equivalent time spent in work was unsustainable.
Because it is patently false. How is it POSSIBLE that an individual working at one job does the same as a person doing two? Stay at home mothers work. Yes. Their work is valuable and important. But they are doing ONE job. Particularly where children are school age, the SAHM does one job, the mother working outside the home tends to do two. It's not like domestic labour disappears when you're working outside the home.
But you've made this point already, and I've already pointed out that it's illogical. Did you have anything more to add?
(I think perhaps you have misunderstood the term 'ad hominem' if you imagine that laughing is an ad hominem attack... )0 -
Good grief! You really have an issue with this; don't you? I never said that SAHMs and moms who work outside of the home "do the same". My point is they can spend equal number of hours a day "working". Period. You want to argue that moms who work outside the home work longer hours, and I do not believe that is necessarily true in all cases.Because it is patently false. How is it POSSIBLE that an individual working at one job does the same as a person doing two? Stay at home mothers work. Yes. Their work is valuable and important. But they are doing ONE job. Particularly where children are school age, the SAHM does one job, the mother working outside the home tends to do two. It's not like domestic labour disappears when you're working outside the home.
I understand ad hominem quite well. Your use of name calling and laughing at your opponent in a debate IS one.(I think perhaps you have misunderstood the term 'ad hominem' if you imagine that laughing is an ad hominem attack... )0 -
I don't have 'issues' at all, sweetie. Do you? (Another ad hom, incidentally. :-) )
I didn't name call. I suggested your argument was silly. I laughed at your suggestion that I didn't know what working hours for a SAHM were. In both cases, my derision was directed to your arguments (even in suggesting 'it makes you look silly' - the attack is directed to the argument... see how this works?). You engaged in ad hominem. You attacked the person, not the argument. You perhaps don't understand the term as well as you imagine?
As to the rest, you can reiterate the same point as many times as you like, but until you can explain to me how doing one job (the SAHM) and doing the same job as well as paid work outside the home adds up to working equivalent hours, we're going to be at an impasse, aren't we? You were challenging the notion of the double shift. Or at least, you were trying to. But you haven't really supported your challenge with either argument or evidence. You may not 'believe' it to be true (and sneakily pushing in that 'in all cases' clause there really isn't going to help you, unless you want to climb down from your initial premise), but you certainly haven't demonstrated it to be so.
Did you want to have a bash at that?0 -
Your refusal to admit that laughing at your opponent and telling your opponent they look silly is an attack on the person, not the argument is blatantly obvious.You engaged in ad hominem. You attacked the person, not the argument. You perhaps don't understand the term as well as you imagine?
I don't know how else to help you understand this, Doctor. There are only so many hours in a day. Whether a person is working IN the home or OUT of the home, work is being done. When the person who works outside of the home returns home, work begins again, however, the person working in the home is also continuing his/her work during that time. Does that help you?As to the rest, you can reiterate the same point as many times as you like, but until you can explain to me how doing one job (the SAHM) and doing the same job as well as paid work outside the home adds up to working equivalent hours, we're going to be at an impasse, aren't we?0 -
Sitting about having dinner and watching telly isn't work. When I'm doing that with my child, I don't count that as 'work'. Do you?
Most efficient women I know who work as SAHM have the bulk of the domestic labour done by dinner time. In contrast, I do it AFTER my paid work.
Which part of that are you struggling to grasp?
The same amount of work needs to be done in the home of the working mother. In addition, she has to do a full time job.
Get it yet?0 -
"Your refusal to admit that laughing at your opponent and telling your opponent they look silly is an attack on the person, not the argument is blatantly obvious. "
Oh, and I don't even begin to know what that means. Could you rephrase?
And no, laughing and calling someone's argument silly is not, in fact, ad hom. Again, you may wish to look the term up. Just reiterating the same point over and over, while eventually wearing to the debating opponent, does not in fact take the argument further.
it does seem to be your preferred debating tactic, though, so perhaps we're done here? I don't know. Did you have a new point to make?
(Incidentally, it always amuses me when people use my title as a form of attack. Bless.)0 -
It also always amuses me when people with a title like to use it in a debate (letting us know you were working on your PhD, for example. No, that doesn't give you added credibility.(Incidentally, it always amuses me when people use my title as a form of attack. Bless.)
Why don't YOU try explaining to ME how moms who work outside the home work more hours in a day than SAHMs?0 -
You did not laugh at my argument. You said my argument makes ME look silly. Direct personal attack. I'm always amused when someone in a debate chuckles to themselves at the point their opponent just made. It's a debate tactic used to discredit the person's statement by making it seem laughable. Poor tactic, at that.And no, laughing and calling someone's argument silly is not, in fact, ad hom. Again, you may wish to look the term up. Just reiterating the same point over and over, while eventually wearing to the debating opponent, does not in fact take the argument further.0 -
If I'm working outside the home, someone is taking direct care of my children at home. My point is that although our roles have changed, I don't know that they've necessarily doubled. We're not in two places at one time.
My last statement was, "we're not in two places at one time". How can you disagree with that?I do disagree with your last statement.
Ahh, you are correct once again. Silly of me not to have been more specific. Perhaps when I said last, I meant next to last. As would have (hopefully) been clear by how my proceeding paragraph was worded.
Also,you did not address any other one of my points so was this snide comment simply to avoid the question?0 -
Also,you did not address any other one of my points so was this snide comment simply to avoid the question?
Here is your comment:
What and where, exactly is your question that I avoided?You're absolutely correct in that when I'm not with my child someone else is. However, you might reverse the situation and say "when you're not working, you rely on someone else to support you." So I suppose it's a personal matter entirely dependent on the family.
I do disagree with your last statement. The tasks may not directly have doubled (for time management) but certainly have increased. If I'm working full time and going to school full time I may have less hours in a day but I can confidently say my tasks have doubled (in comparison to completing only one at a time).
Just because someone else is "raising your children" for a few hours a day (phenomenal satirical article on this by the way, if I could find it) does not mean that you are doing one job because you have the same number of hours in a day. Your 24 hours are likely to be much less hectic then the 24 hours of a working mother. And this is coming from someone who has seen both sides of the spectrum, not intending it to be out of sheer ignorance but rather experience.0 -
You did not laugh at my argument. You said my argument makes ME look silly. Direct personal attack. I'm always amused when someone in a debate chuckles to themselves at the point their opponent just made. It's a debate tactic used to discredit the person's statement by making it seem laughable. Poor tactic, at that.And no, laughing and calling someone's argument silly is not, in fact, ad hom. Again, you may wish to look the term up. Just reiterating the same point over and over, while eventually wearing to the debating opponent, does not in fact take the argument further.
You're funny.
You know, when someone laughs at your argument, and suggests YOUR ARGUMENT (see the distinction, again?) makes you look silly, it's probably best not to get all frothy at the mouth about it. That really does make you look silly. Not an attack, just a friendly word of advice.
It was a laughable statement. (And it followed immediately after your first ad hom attack.)
Would you have been more comfortable if I'd said I was working on my typing qualification while I was looking after my child at home? Sorry if the facts of what I was doing alongside my SAHM work makes you uncomfortable. But that's clearly more your issue than mine.
So, was there any, you know, factual stuff you wanted to throw my way? A bit of logic? Something actually relevant to the discussion? Or did you want to distract from the flimsiness of your argument with a bit more ad hom?0 -
It also always amuses me when people with a title like to use it in a debate (letting us know you were working on your PhD, for example. No, that doesn't give you added credibility.(Incidentally, it always amuses me when people use my title as a form of attack. Bless.)
Why don't YOU try explaining to ME how moms who work outside the home work more hours in a day than SAHMs?
I already did, sweetheart. 2 jobs. It's not rocket science, really.
God love you.0 -
Why don't YOU try explaining to ME how moms who work outside the home work more hours in a day than SAHMs?
Two jobs does not equal more hours in one day.I already did, sweetheart. 2 jobs. It's not rocket science, really.0 -
Fact: Both SAHMs and moms who work outside the home have 24 hours a day.So, was there any, you know, factual stuff you wanted to throw my way? A bit of logic? Something actually relevant to the discussion?
Fact: SAHMS can "work" just as many hours as moms who work outside the home.0 -
lol @ 'womans roll'0
-
SOME working moms do work much more than SOME SAHMs and vice versa. I was 15 months old when my mom had twins. She was a SAHM of 3 babies. My dad worked for the government. I absolutely guarantee you that she worked far harder while he was at his job than he did. She also worked all night long too. Sometimes I call her up and apologize for being a toddler while my sisters were babies. :laugh:
OTOH, I am a SAHM and have been for nearly 15 years. I run my own business from home but it's very part time and I set my own hours. When the kids (now 14 and 11) were little it was hard. I often thought about how nice it would be to have a job outside he home just so I could sit down once in a while. Now that the kids are older my job is MUCH easier. I still get up dirt early (4:30 to get DH off to work and kid1 off to school) and I'm still likely to not get to bed before 11 because I'm cleaning up after dinner, setting up things for the next day but my regular day is a lot easier than anyone who holds down a job outside the home.
My regular day now might have me spending 3-4 hours cleaning/gardening, 2 hours doing meals (Kid1 and Kid2 go to school 2 hours apart so that's 2 separate breakfasts plus dinner) and during off tax season about an hour a day working (taxes, financial advice, getting new clients, running my debate site). During tax season it's a lot more like being a WOHM and it's most definitely busier to the point that I NEED the kids and DH to pitch in and help or the house would be a mess.0 -
Fact: Both SAHMs and moms who work outside the home have 24 hours a day.So, was there any, you know, factual stuff you wanted to throw my way? A bit of logic? Something actually relevant to the discussion?
Fact: SAHMS can "work" just as many hours as moms who work outside the home.
Fact: Unemployed single men have 24 hours a day. And.... ? Are you suggesting they work as hard as I do just cause they're, you know, *awake*?
The fact that everyone has 24 hours in their day doesn't mean those 24 hours are spent working.
My mum raised 5 kids. She worked damn hard, and I respect that. . But frankly, she did not put in the sheer numbers of labour that I do, and that the working mothers I know do. . She simply didn't. When her kids were in bed, she put her feet up. When my kid is in bed, I work several more hours. I work in the morning while my kid is still sleeping. Working mothers I know who don't bring work home with them still end up labouring late into the night, doing washing and ironing and cleaning. Stuff a well organised SAHM manages to get done during the day. I know I sure as nuts did when I was a SAHM, and so did my mother. When I was at home with my child, I had all the domestic work done by 11am. That's not an option for me now that I'm working full time, so it gets done at other times.
We simply, and straightforwardly end up with double the responsibility. We are responsible for our families AND we are responsible for our paid work. I don't believe it *should* be this way. I do believe that it ends up *being* this way.
I'm not sure why you find this so very hard to grasp. Your equations don't add up. They just don't. That you continue to repeat them doesn't make them any more true.
Yes, of course there'll be instances of individual mothers who go against this grain. But if you really think that this is the *general* trend - that SAHM and working mothers put in equal hours, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can support that with logic or evidence. The fact that you just repeat the same thing over and over suggests that that is certainly the case.0 -
My regular day now might have me spending 3-4 hours cleaning/gardening, 2 hours doing meals (Kid1 and Kid2 go to school 2 hours apart so that's 2 separate breakfasts plus dinner) and during off tax season about an hour a day working (taxes, financial advice, getting new clients, running my debate site). During tax season it's a lot more like being a WOHM and it's most definitely busier to the point that I NEED the kids and DH to pitch in and help or the house would be a mess.
Yes, this is what I do too. Plus an 8-10 hour shift of paid employment. That's really the point that macpatti can't seem to get her head round. We do all this PLUS paid employment.
And you're absolutely right that it is incredibly important if we're ever to shift the double shift women who do paid work (for however many hours a day, full time or part time) end up pulling, partners need to pull their weight in the domestic sphere.
Suggesting that it's 'all the same whether you work or not' really doesn't help in the real world.0 -
I think SAHDs like me work as hard as SAHMs with one huge improvement....I put out for my wife on command.0
-
Yes, this is what I do too. Plus an 8-10 hour shift of paid employment. That's really the point that macpatti can't seem to get her head round. We do all this PLUS paid employment.
Same here. I'm up around 9 am (thankfully my kids sleep in relatively well lately), get breakfast ready, kids dressed, clean up a bit. My 4 year old goes on the bus to preschool at 11:30, after he leaves I typically do dishes or laundry while my daughter plays. She goes down for a nap around 1-ish, and I either coupon (which in of itself is like another job) or clean up or start planning for dinner. Son gets home at 2:45, go over his day at school and play time until my husband gets home at 4. Finish up dinner and then go in to work until 2 AM.
As a mom who does BOTH roles as a full-time SAHM and full-time WOHM, I must say that each role is different. While I love being at home, I do enjoy coming to work most days simply because it gets me out of the house and in the company of other adults. I am going to say that WOHM all-around tend to have it more difficult as the duties of SAHMs tend to get dumped onto WOHMs too. Thankfully my husband does help out a bit, but still a lot is left up to me. I also manage all of the bill-paying, grocery shopping, doctor's appointments, etc etc.
Next year won't be as nice though as my son will be in Kindergarten starting early in the AM, and I will have to be up after less than 4 hours of sleep to get him ready and dropped off since he won't have the bus anymore.
0 -
I think SAHDs like me work as hard as SAHMs with one huge improvement....I put out for my wife on command.
I wish you were my husband LOL.0
This discussion has been closed.