Veggies vs Meat
Replies
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Now also, it is speculation that eating meat increases brain size. As my friend, Mutt would say, "correlation, but is there causation?" Our jaws, back teeth, dentition, intestine size, and other characteristics STRONGLY suggest that AMH is a vegetarian species. I submit we are. But vegetarian species, even mice, can eat meat if available. The problem is that meat can kill you. No carnivore in the wild ever gets occluded arteries, or heart disease. Humans certainly do.
What do you think?
I've read that it was glucose in the form of more calorie dense foods resulting from cooking & the addition of grains that increased brain size... not really the meat.0 -
I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
??
Guess I'm missing what provoked you... Can't believe what I said would. You must be referring to someone else's post.
Not on this board, on the meat vs veggie thread on the main forums. I wasn't provoked, I just had a couple of people making unprovoked very personal attacks on me.0 -
I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
I do understand your reluctance to post anymore on this topic. Unbelievably, that thread, 'The real price of meat' only received complaints from the 'meat-eaters.' This... despite their 'steak-in-your-eye' attacks with pictures and words. This... despite their dismissive and trivializing attitude. These are freaking adults??!!?? Yet they go running to the board nanny when they run out of things to say, and the vegetarians are getting the upper hand in the logic and reason department.
This world seems just so sad somedays. Apologies to the polite meat-eating debaters here. I commend you for getting your ideas out, and expanding my awareness of another, albeit dominant, point of view that I still don't get after almost 57 years on this planet.
FTeale: I'm licking my wounds with you, and thinking 'what's the point' right along with you. At least we aren't tattletails!!0 -
I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
Ah, I see. Good that he opened this group then.
??
Guess I'm missing what provoked you... Can't believe what I said would. You must be referring to someone else's post.
Not on this board, on the meat vs veggie thread on the main forums. I wasn't provoked, I just had a couple of people making unprovoked very personal attacks on me.
Ah, I see. Good that he opened this group then.0 -
I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
Ah, I see. Good that he opened this group then.
??
Guess I'm missing what provoked you... Can't believe what I said would. You must be referring to someone else's post.
Not on this board, on the meat vs veggie thread on the main forums. I wasn't provoked, I just had a couple of people making unprovoked very personal attacks on me.
Ah, I see. Good that he opened this group then.
Yes, I like the pure white and black on the page: no seeing red (as with pictures of rare steak or spare ribs). I also like that it's all about the ideas here. Do I dare hope to leave this discussion with a bit more understanding of our differences, instead of feeling the world is a cruel place and there will never be peace as long as humans inhabit the earth?0 -
I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
Ah, I see. Good that he opened this group then.
??
Guess I'm missing what provoked you... Can't believe what I said would. You must be referring to someone else's post.
Not on this board, on the meat vs veggie thread on the main forums. I wasn't provoked, I just had a couple of people making unprovoked very personal attacks on me.
Ah, I see. Good that he opened this group then.
Yes, I like the pure white and black on the page: no seeing red (as with pictures of rare steak or spare ribs). I also like that it's all about the ideas here. Do I dare hope to leave this discussion with a bit more understanding of our differences, instead of feeling the world is a cruel place and there will never be peace as long as humans inhabit the earth?
I hope to... yes, I enjoy reading points from both sides. As I mentioned before, all throughout my 20's and now into my 30's, I've read and studied so many different viewpoints on nutrition. Was even raw vegan not too long ago. I try to keep an open mind. It's really helped to do so.0 -
I do understand your reluctance to post anymore on this topic. Unbelievably, that thread, 'The real price of meat' only received complaints from the 'meat-eaters.' This... despite their 'steak-in-your-eye' attacks with pictures and words. This... despite their dismissive and trivializing attitude. These are freaking adults??!!?? Yet they go running to the board nanny when they run out of things to say, and the vegetarians are getting the upper hand in the logic and reason department.
This world seems just so sad somedays. Apologies to the polite meat-eating debaters here. I commend you for getting your ideas out, and expanding my awareness of another, albeit dominant, point of view that I still don't get after almost 57 years on this planet.
FTeale: I'm licking my wounds with you, and thinking 'what's the point' right along with you. At least we aren't tattletails!!
Agreed that people are kind of sad to report the posts but definitely don't agree that veggies were gaining the upper hand.
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I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
There were so pathetic posts on that thread but I don't think you should bow out. Join in and that's a meat eater asking a veggie to join in the fight against him.
I should point out that I've run into a few rude, militant veggies too. I've been told I'm going to die, my blood work must be terrible (it isn't) and that I wade in the blood of all the little fuzzy animals I kill. Obviously that's the minority of veggies/vegans.0 -
I do understand your reluctance to post anymore on this topic. Unbelievably, that thread, 'The real price of meat' only received complaints from the 'meat-eaters.' This... despite their 'steak-in-your-eye' attacks with pictures and words. This... despite their dismissive and trivializing attitude. These are freaking adults??!!?? Yet they go running to the board nanny when they run out of things to say, and the vegetarians are getting the upper hand in the logic and reason department.
This world seems just so sad somedays. Apologies to the polite meat-eating debaters here. I commend you for getting your ideas out, and expanding my awareness of another, albeit dominant, point of view that I still don't get after almost 57 years on this planet.
FTeale: I'm licking my wounds with you, and thinking 'what's the point' right along with you. At least we aren't tattletails!!
Agreed that people are kind of sad to report the posts but definitely don't agree that veggies were gaining the upper hand.
This is a new board that came into existence yesterday. I was gone for a good part of the afternoon, and didn't read most of it. In the part i did read, I didn't see you there, Tidmutt. Towards the end, I donned my chain maille and trusty sword to dispatch what I saw as weak reasoning. VegesaurusRex bared his teeth in response to all the t-bone chompers, too. You may disagree, but I think that silly pictures say 'end game; the veggies win.' That's pretty much what happened.
My impression: Some meat-eaters like to THINK may can stand the heat of the grill, but they cry like babies whenever things don't go well. Some of these people should stick to baby formula, and give up the whole chest-pounding embarrassment.0 -
I'm afraid the upshot of the thread over on the main boards was to convince me that meat eaters are aggressive and rude, and I am not debating with them any more.
Sorry to bow out of what could be an interesting discussion on ethics. I come on the internet for fun, not to be laid into completely unprovoked by strangers with an attitude problem.
I'll leave this one to Veggie.
There were so pathetic posts on that thread but I don't think you should bow out. Join in and that's a meat eater asking a veggie to join in the fight against him.
I should point out that I've run into a few rude, militant veggies too. I've been told I'm going to die, my blood work must be terrible (it isn't) and that I wade in the blood of all the little fuzzy animals I kill. Obviously that's the minority of veggies/vegans.
It may surprise you to know that some militant vegans are offensive to other vegans. The rigidity and judgmentalism is a phenomenon I call 'veggier than thou.' Many of these people are new to the lifestyle and think they have attained personal perfection, which the longer you live, the more you realize there's no such thing. It's easy to lump all vegans into one category and dump them all out to sea. But then for us, it's easy to stereotype meat-eaters based upon insensitive attacks by some meat-eaters when their intent is to trap, humiliate and disrespect vegans.0 -
I do understand your reluctance to post anymore on this topic. Unbelievably, that thread, 'The real price of meat' only received complaints from the 'meat-eaters.' This... despite their 'steak-in-your-eye' attacks with pictures and words. This... despite their dismissive and trivializing attitude. These are freaking adults??!!?? Yet they go running to the board nanny when they run out of things to say, and the vegetarians are getting the upper hand in the logic and reason department.
This world seems just so sad somedays. Apologies to the polite meat-eating debaters here. I commend you for getting your ideas out, and expanding my awareness of another, albeit dominant, point of view that I still don't get after almost 57 years on this planet.
FTeale: I'm licking my wounds with you, and thinking 'what's the point' right along with you. At least we aren't tattletails!!
Agreed that people are kind of sad to report the posts but definitely don't agree that veggies were gaining the upper hand.
This is a new board that came into existence yesterday. I was gone for a good part of the afternoon, and didn't read most of it. In the part i did read, I didn't see you there, Tidmutt. Towards the end, I donned my chain maille and trusty sword to dispatch what I saw as weak reasoning. VegesaurusRex bared his teeth in response to all the t-bone chompers, too. You may disagree, but I think that silly pictures say 'end game; the veggies win.' That's pretty much what happened.
My impression: meat-eaters like to THINK may can stand the heat of the grill, but they cry like babies whenever things don't go well. Some of these people should stick to baby formula, and give up the whole chest-pounding embarrassment.
Oh, I wasn't on that thread. Thankfully it's not representative of all meat eaters. 0 -
She is just like you or me (although she is currently studying and has more spare time lol). She read the China Study and raised some good points about the data. So much so that Campbell felt the need to respond to her. You don't have to read it like it's a peer reviewed paper but read it and consider her arguments. I did so with the PETA site you sent me.
Can you give me a cite to Campbell's response?
http://tynan.com/chinastudyresponse
I should be fair and say a blogger asked him to address her post. Which he did, in fairly condescending way I might add. Regardless, he could have focused more on the stats and less on her lack of credentials but I'll give him this, at least he responded, many people in his position would not have.
Thanks. You're right. Campbell took it seriously enough to respond, although he was dismissive of much of her thinking. Basically, her analysis was not multivariate. She says in the converstation that follows that she's done a multivariate analysis, and that that supports he conclusion, but she hasn't shown that yet.0 -
I do understand your reluctance to post anymore on this topic. Unbelievably, that thread, 'The real price of meat' only received complaints from the 'meat-eaters.' This... despite their 'steak-in-your-eye' attacks with pictures and words. This... despite their dismissive and trivializing attitude. These are freaking adults??!!?? Yet they go running to the board nanny when they run out of things to say, and the vegetarians are getting the upper hand in the logic and reason department.
This world seems just so sad somedays. Apologies to the polite meat-eating debaters here. I commend you for getting your ideas out, and expanding my awareness of another, albeit dominant, point of view that I still don't get after almost 57 years on this planet.
FTeale: I'm licking my wounds with you, and thinking 'what's the point' right along with you. At least we aren't tattletails!!
Agreed that people are kind of sad to report the posts but definitely don't agree that veggies were gaining the upper hand.
This is a new board that came into existence yesterday. I was gone for a good part of the afternoon, and didn't read most of it. In the part i did read, I didn't see you there, Tidmutt. Towards the end, I donned my chain maille and trusty sword to dispatch what I saw as weak reasoning. VegesaurusRex bared his teeth in response to all the t-bone chompers, too. You may disagree, but I think that silly pictures say 'end game; the veggies win.' That's pretty much what happened.
My impression: meat-eaters like to THINK may can stand the heat of the grill, but they cry like babies whenever things don't go well. Some of these people should stick to baby formula, and give up the whole chest-pounding embarrassment.
Oh, I wasn't on that thread. Thankfully it's not representative of all meat eaters.
That thread was simply disgusting. It was an attempted gang bang of vegetarians. What amazes me is that that same type of crudeness has not made its way to this board. The discussion here has been quite civilized and restrained. Nice if it stays that way.0 -
Both. Animal protein causes Osteoporosis. Fat and Cholesterol cause heart disease.
I disagree on both. The first is a misunderstanding of the available evidence. The common understanding is that a diet high protein causes increased urinary calcium excretion, which it does. However, that doesn't mean calcium is being "leached" from the bones as is often claimed. This meta analysis does a good job of explaining this.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/jbmr.090515/full
The second is far far more complex than the simple model understood by the "man in the street" and often recited by your average GP. For a good analysis of the Lipid Hypothesis, it's history etc. read Taube's book, Good Calories Bad Calories. I'm skeptical about his weight loss claims since his insulin theory is as old as the hills and metabolic ward studies don't show any metabolic benefit to LC diets, but his chapters on the Lipid Hypothesis are fascinating, especially the history of how it developed, became political and entered the mainstream. Worth a read, it's on the kindle if you have one.
Is there a paper that reviews Taub's book. I find that is often the best place to start.0 -
FOR MEAT EATERS WHO THINK THEY ARE ORIGINAL WHEN THEY PUT DOWN VEGETARIANS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXSAyqs1z7Q&feature=related
(Not meant as an attack on anyone on this board. Meat eaters here are especially nice.)0 -
Both. Animal protein causes Osteoporosis. Fat and Cholesterol cause heart disease.
I disagree on both. The first is a misunderstanding of the available evidence. The common understanding is that a diet high protein causes increased urinary calcium excretion, which it does. However, that doesn't mean calcium is being "leached" from the bones as is often claimed. This meta analysis does a good job of explaining this.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/jbmr.090515/full
The second is far far more complex than the simple model understood by the "man in the street" and often recited by your average GP. For a good analysis of the Lipid Hypothesis, it's history etc. read Taube's book, Good Calories Bad Calories. I'm skeptical about his weight loss claims since his insulin theory is as old as the hills and metabolic ward studies don't show any metabolic benefit to LC diets, but his chapters on the Lipid Hypothesis are fascinating, especially the history of how it developed, became political and entered the mainstream. Worth a read, it's on the kindle if you have one.
Is there a paper that reviews Taub's book. I find that is often the best place to start.
I read the more recent and condensed Taube book. Forgot the hame... but I did read about the lipid hypothesis and other stuff. Very interesting read. I thought about getting the bigger book. I learned a lot from his book, assuming it's not way off the mark.
Taubes: Why We Get Fat0 -
I read the more recent and condensed Taube book. Forgot the hame... but I did read about the lipid hypothesis and other stuff. Very interesting read. I thought about getting the bigger book. I learned a lot from his book, assuming it's not way off the mark.
Taubes: Why We Get Fat
Can you sum up, in a few sentences what the thesis of this book is?0 -
I couldn't keep away
I was very interested in the light of this debate to see this on the news this morning http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16540918
Clear link between meat and pancreatic cancer.0 -
I couldn't keep away
I was very interested in the light of this debate to see this on the news this morning http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16540918
Clear link between meat and pancreatic cancer.
fteale,
You have to wonder how many times people have to hear this and from how many studies (that are not sponsored or paid for by the cattlemen's association) before they start believing it. Every major medical association in the US and Britain has stated that eating meat is unhealthy, yet some people are still not convinced. Could it be they just don't want the truth?0 -
And another coincidence - I was looking this up for a friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency
I know it's wikipedia, but it's interesting that apparently B12 deficiency is caused by improper absorption, and not dietary intake.0 -
I read the more recent and condensed Taube book. Forgot the hame... but I did read about the lipid hypothesis and other stuff. Very interesting read. I thought about getting the bigger book. I learned a lot from his book, assuming it's not way off the mark.
Taubes: Why We Get Fat
Can you sum up, in a few sentences what the thesis of this book is?
Summary: Carbs make you fat.0 -
I couldn't keep away
I was very interested in the light of this debate to see this on the news this morning http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16540918
Clear link between meat and pancreatic cancer.
fteale,
You have to wonder how many times people have to hear this and from how many studies (that are not sponsored or paid for by the cattlemen's association) before they start believing it. Every major medical association in the US and Britain has stated that eating meat is unhealthy, yet some people are still not convinced. Could it be they just don't want the truth?
Of course people don't want to accept it. I know salt isn't good for me, but it doesn't stop me eating it, because life would be miserable without it!0 -
Of course people don't want to accept it. I know salt isn't good for me, but it doesn't stop me eating it, because life would be miserable without it!
sodium is an essential mineral0 -
Of course people don't want to accept it. I know salt isn't good for me, but it doesn't stop me eating it, because life would be miserable without it!
sodium is an essential mineral
Of course it is. But not in the quantities I want it!0 -
I read the more recent and condensed Taube book. Forgot the hame... but I did read about the lipid hypothesis and other stuff. Very interesting read. I thought about getting the bigger book. I learned a lot from his book, assuming it's not way off the mark.
Taubes: Why We Get Fat
Can you sum up, in a few sentences what the thesis of this book is?
Summary: Carbs make you fat.
Not bad, but you don't do justice to his history of the formation of the lipid hypothesis. Lots of interesting stuff in there, as I said, take the carb theory with a grain of salt.0 -
I couldn't keep away
I was very interested in the light of this debate to see this on the news this morning http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16540918
Clear link between meat and pancreatic cancer.
fteale,
You have to wonder how many times people have to hear this and from how many studies (that are not sponsored or paid for by the cattlemen's association) before they start believing it. Every major medical association in the US and Britain has stated that eating meat is unhealthy, yet some people are still not convinced. Could it be they just don't want the truth?
LOL, my dad showed me this study as I was cooking some bacon... hehe
1) It was processed meats, they found no such link with unprocessed read meat for example. They looked at people who ate sausage and bacon regularly. They blamed the nitrates. Old news really, nitrates have been evil for a long time.
2) Another exercise in correlation most probably. I'll reserve judgement until I've read more details but the video I saw made it sound like yet another exercise in statistics. The increased risk was quite small and the potential for confounding variables to play havoc with this study is possibly quite high. Perhaps the sausage eaters were less likely to brush their teeth or are more sedentary. As I said, need to see the study up close...0 -
LOL, my dad showed me this study as I was cooking some bacon... hehe
1) It was processed meats, they found no such link with unprocessed read meat for example. They looked at people who ate sausage and bacon regularly. They blamed the nitrates. Old news really, nitrates have been evil for a long time.
Utter rubish. I showed you several of them myself.
Mutt, I am starting to believe you are nothing but a sophist. My first encounter on these message boards was when you came on after some one had mentioned some study, and you DEMANDED peer reviewed statistically valid studies to back up the claim that vegetarian diet is the proper one for humans. Then you said you were on the paleo diet. I have asked you several times for the same level of proof that the paleo diet is the proper one (assuming you even knew what it was) as you were demanding of vegetarans that our diet is the proper one. We have given you plenty of proof, albeit that they are in the form of prospective longitudinal studies (the China Study) or controled cohort studies (Framingham), which you don't seem to acknowledge. In fact, vritually every study not funded by the meat and dairy association or not studying unique populations such as Lapplanders or Inuits says the same thing - human beings are herbovores. The president of the American Society of Cardiology says we are not designed to eat meat. Every major health group that does not recieve funding from the meat and dairy industry agrees. Yet you are truly playing Fallstaff. Why? You can't provide solid studies to back up your own position, and yet the overwhelming consensus of studies in the area support my position. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? Or do you actually have some thing solid to base your claims on. If so., now is the time to show it. I'm getting bored.
2) Another exercise in correlation most probably. I'll reserve judgement until I've read more details but the video I saw made it sound like yet another exercise in statistics. The increased risk was quite small and the potential for confounding variables to play havoc with this study is possibly quite high. Perhaps the sausage eaters were less likely to brush their teeth or are more sedentary. As I said, need to see the study up close...
[/quote]0 -
LOL, my dad showed me this study as I was cooking some bacon... hehe
1) It was processed meats, they found no such link with unprocessed read meat for example. They looked at people who ate sausage and bacon regularly. They blamed the nitrates. Old news really, nitrates have been evil for a long time.
Utter rubish. I showed you several of them myself.
What are you talking about? I was referring to the study posted by femfatale. Btw, this is the title of the article she linked to:
Processed meat 'linked to pancreatic cancer'
"Processed".
I said nothing about the other studies, just the one she linked to.0 -
LOL, my dad showed me this study as I was cooking some bacon... hehe
1) It was processed meats, they found no such link with unprocessed read meat for example. They looked at people who ate sausage and bacon regularly. They blamed the nitrates. Old news really, nitrates have been evil for a long time.
Utter rubish. I showed you several of them myself.
What are you talking about? I was referring to the study posted by femfatale. Btw, this is the title of the article she linked to:
Processed meat 'linked to pancreatic cancer'
"Processed".
I said nothing about the other studies, just the one she linked to.
Oh. Sorry. I misunderstood.0 -
I read the more recent and condensed Taube book. Forgot the hame... but I did read about the lipid hypothesis and other stuff. Very interesting read. I thought about getting the bigger book. I learned a lot from his book, assuming it's not way off the mark.
Taubes: Why We Get Fat
Can you sum up, in a few sentences what the thesis of this book is?
I'll try: Carbohydrates make us fat, with the emphasis being on grains & more processed carbs. The calories in/calories out rule based on the law of thermodynamics isn't a good enough explanation for why we're obese. (However, he goes on to draw a conclusions that overlooks the fact that when you drop carbs, and replace them with meat and fat, that satiety is responsible for not overeating, which then begins to make more sense of his idea that carbs are magically responsible for making us fat.) He sides with the lipid hypothesis skeptics that the connection between blood cholesterol and heart & coronary disease (which is a problem of cholesterol accumulation) is not so easily explained, but that there's also a connection with glucose and the insulin response, and that the storage of fat has nothing to do with eating good fats or cholesterol, rather that it's only when you combine carbohydrates (and the emphasis is on grains & processed, not veggie carbs) and fat that you begin to have the cholesterol accumulation problem, as well as just a "fat" problem.0
This discussion has been closed.