Help understanding the science behind the LSD

rybo

Ok, I’ve read as much as I can about the importance of the LSD run in marathon training and how its better to go slower than faster and all the physiological stuff that happens during that type of run. Where my disconnect still lies in understanding all of this is…if you run all your long runs slower than your marathon pace, how can you NOT end up burning thru calories quicker & hitting the wall during the race? If your marathon pace is an easy enough one that you can maintain over 26 miles, why is that pace not easy enough to maintain for your LSD training runs?

DontThinkJustRun

I've been researching and trying to understand this as well, and all I understand thus far is that LSRs are to train your body to burn fat instead of carbs and you need them durning training because the recovery time is less and allows you to train hard on your other shorter runs. But yes, they scare me...I mean if I don't do a bulk of my training at my MP, how is my body supposed to be prepared...it's all so complicated. I think that's why many people end up running multiple marathons, because they are ever on the quest to perfect their training.

arc918

Part of it is about time on your feet and the ability to recover from your.

I think it also depends on how one arrived at their goal pace.

I don't think I could handle doing my long runs at my true goal marathon pace (MP) without getting injured.

I tend to run my long runs 45 - 60 seconds slower than MP. I also (fitness permitting) like to do some "fast finish" long runs where I run the last 5 miles at MP (or faster).

If you are running at pretty conservative pace to begin with, then you can run your long runs closer to MP.

Other random long run thoughts:

I always do them on tired legs = no rest day the day before

IronmanPanda

Part of it is about time on your feet and the ability to recover from your.

I think it also depends on how one arrived at their goal pace.

I don't think I could handle doing my long runs at my true goal marathon pace (MP) without getting injured.

I tend to run my long runs 45 - 60 seconds slower than MP. I also (fitness permitting) like to do some "fast finish" long runs where I run the last 5 miles at MP (or faster).

If you are running at pretty conservative pace to begin with, then you can run your long runs closer to MP.

Other random long run thoughts:

I always do them on tired legs = no rest day the day before

Arc pretty much hit it on the head.
If you trained at your actual race pace your body would be so beat up you would only be running once a week and probably leading to injury.

rybo

I guess the part I don't get is how can you expect to run a marathon at a certain pace, when you've never even attempted a run of that distance anywhere close to that pace? Espeically when the big no-no is going out too fast.

I've read all the things people are saying, I guess I just don't understand how your race pace can be so much faster than what you train at when the biggest danger is going too fast.

FoxyMcDeadlift

You should be going at marathon pace or faster on your shorter runs. Perhaps you should be doing some speedwork in your training as well. A lot of marathon plans wont recommend speedwork (eg Hal Higdons) but then, there is the 3/4 rule that Arc mentioned where if you're feeling good for the final quarter you smash it out. Its by mixing up your training that you end up hitting your MP. Also, the fact that you havent spent all of your training at MP should mean you are fresher to hit it on the day

IronmanPanda

Hmmm.. looking at it like that I'm not so sure.

But I believe if you looked at it in terms of HR...
So based on that your training HR would be estimated at X/xx:xx:xx pace and so your race HR would be estimated at Y/yy:yy:yy pace, setting your race pace estimate to HR Z/zz:zz:zz pace?

I don't know if that even made sense but it made sense in my head...

arc918

The whole slow down to speed up is a leap of faith for sure, but it works.

If you do all your other speed work (half marathon pace = LT & 5K pace = VO2max), then marathon pace should feel really easy on race day. Don't forget you'll taper for two or three or weeks before the race.

Your training should also include some half marathons, which you will run much faster than your marathon pace.

I guess you could also try doing your long run at MP during a step back week.

Bottom line, MP should feel really easy on race day.

Here is what Hal Higdon has to say about it:

Long Runs: The key to the program is the long run on weekends, which builds from 8 miles in the first week to a maximum of 20 miles. Although some experienced runners do train longer, I see no advantage in doing 23, 26 or even 31 mile runs. (I've tried that myself in the past, and it just wore me out.) Save your energy and concentrate on quality runs the Cross of the week. Consistency is most important. You can skip an occasional workout, or juggle the schedule depending on other commitments, but do not cheat on the long runs. Notice that although the weekly long runs get progressively longer, every third week is a "stepback" week, where we reduce mileage to allow you to gather strength for the next push upward. Cross is an important component of any training program.

Run Slow: Normally I recommend that runners do their long runs anywhere from 45 to 90 seconds per mile slower than their marathon pace. This is very important. Listen to what the Coach is about to tell you! The physiological benefits kick in around 90-120 minutes, no matter how fast you run. You'll burn a few calories and trigger glycogen regenesis, teaching your muscles to conserve fuel. Running too fast defeats this purpose and may unnecessarily tear down your muscles, compromising not only your midweek workouts, but the following week's long run. Save your fast running for the marathon itself. There are plenty of days during the Cross of the week, when you can run race pace. So simply do your long runs at a comfortable pace, one that allows you to converse with your training partners, at least during the beginning of the run. Which brings up my next point.

DontThinkJustRun

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/articlePages/article/2

Awesome article that explains some more interesting LSD facts.

rybo

Thanks for all the input everyone!

It's obvious from all the information that running your long runs really slow works, I guess the inner geek in me was just having a difficult time figuring out why it works.

Zoekat05

Reading up on it helps you understand the physiological effects. I would also recommend Advanced Marathoning (2nd Ed) by Pete Pfitzinger as that gives a really good explanation of the different types of runs during the week and the paces and heart rates associated with those runs. You just need to trust it even though it sounds counterintuitive to some people.

Also, I must disagree with a statement above. You should not be running "all" your "shorter runs" at Marathon Pace or faster. Some runs should be "easy" or "recovery" i.e. slow. The best way to get faster is to run more miles and you can't increase your mileage successfully if you run too fast, as you'll get injured and burn out. To give an example from my current week of training (week 4 of a 20 week marathon training plan). My Monday run was a recovery run, so I ran it about 90s slower than MP. Yesterday was a tempo run, so I ran 8 miles, 4 miles easy and 4 miles at my 15K race pace. Today was a progression run, started out about 60s slower than MP and progressed down to MP for the last mile. Tomorrow will be an easy 6 at around 60-75 secs slower than MP and Sunday will be a 16 mile LR at about 60-90s slower than MP.