Girl Scout cookie ban
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Some of you guys are so ignorant, it honestly disturbs me. I feel like I should stop coming to this group. It's upsetting to see the awful comments people make sometimes.
care to tell us which comments you are taking issue with so that we know? That is what a debating forum is about though, expressing our thoughts.0 -
Some of you guys are so ignorant, it honestly disturbs me. I feel like I should stop coming to this group. It's upsetting to see the awful comments people make sometimes.
care to tell us which comments you are taking issue with so that we know? That is what a debating forum is about though, expressing our thoughts.
The comment where someone compared their child not being old enough to start school to a transgendered child wanting to be in girl scouts. Those two things are NOT the same. It's also not the same thing to have a "tomboy" daughter or a transgendered son or daughter. Gender roles also exist, and many of them are not for good reasons.
I never said the purpose of the group was anything other than expressing yourself, I just EXPRESSED that it disturbed me how ignorant some people are. Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature.0 -
Well, you did say "I should stop coming to this group". This group is all about debates.I never said the purpose of the group was anything other than expressing yourself, I just EXPRESSED that it disturbed me how ignorant some people are.0 -
Well, you did say "I should stop coming to this group". This group is all about debates.I never said the purpose of the group was anything other than expressing yourself, I just EXPRESSED that it disturbed me how ignorant some people are.
This is redundant. I obviously know what the group is about, but I don't know why you are focusing on that specific part of what I said?0 -
Some of you guys are so ignorant, it honestly disturbs me. I feel like I should stop coming to this group. It's upsetting to see the awful comments people make sometimes.
care to tell us which comments you are taking issue with so that we know? That is what a debating forum is about though, expressing our thoughts.
The comment where someone compared their child not being old enough to start school to a transgendered child wanting to be in girl scouts. Those two things are NOT the same. It's also not the same thing to have a "tomboy" daughter or a transgendered son or daughter. Gender roles also exist, and many of them are not for good reasons.
I never said the purpose of the group was anything other than expressing yourself, I just EXPRESSED that it disturbed me how ignorant some people are. Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature.
btw, I do completely agree that many ignorant comments have been made. I just wanted to know which ones you had a problem with. And yes, there is a big difference between being a tomboy and transgendered0 -
From what I gather online, the child self-identifies as female, though the physical biology is male. I would certainly hope no reputable surgeon would conduct a surgical sex-change operation on a young child, nor that any parent would permit that. Gender-determination surgery on a child that displays hermaphroditic charcteristics is something very different.
I can't find anything to say whether or not the cellular or hormonal biology has been explored, but does that really matter?
If this child is truly transgender then why restrict a doctor from preforming the surgery? Or is there some doubt that a child really can identify as a a different sex at such a young age. In which case all the more reason the kid needs to be around other young boys.
I wasn't intending to question the child's self-identification, just hoping that no doctor would perform such a surgery at such a young age, due to the physical immaturity of the body, and the complications that would almost certainly arise at puberty. To do so would potentially cause all sorts of physical and medical problems.0 -
Roaddog, here is a link to an article and video of the 7 year old child. We're not talking post-operative transgendered; I don't believe any doctor would perform the operation until maturity.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/bobby-montoya-girl-scouts_n_1033308.html
Thanks for the info. In this instance, this child should not be allowed into the Girl Scouts.
Why? I'd love to know your reasons. To me, the child is pre-pubertal, so there's no 'risk' in having a biologically male child in a group with females (even if there were, male and female children mix daily at school without anyone getting too worried about it). If the child self-identifies as female, and wishes to participate in an activity aimed at the group they identify with, then where's the harm?
But that is not my main reason. My main objection is why does everyone else have to make changes to accomodate one person? There is always that one person that wants to make a statement my infiltrating some previously restricted club or organization. Sometimes a group of people that share unique characteristics want to get together, without it becoming some kind of Civil rights movement.
I agree with this. No one can suck it up and deal with life anymore. Everyone has to be catered to, people always have excuses as to why they are wronged. Life sucks sometimes, you move on.
My son isn't going to be able to start school with his friends because of the birthday cut-off. I'm going to sue the school and demand they let him in and stop discriminating against him because of the month he was born. :noway:
I think the point that is being missed is that no one if forcing this on the Girl Scouts of America. They want to do this, just like boy scouts are allowed to discriminate, they are allowed to accept transgendered kids. And the girls who don't like it should suck it up or form a new type of girl scouts just like the many people who have been rejected by the Boy Scouts of America have had to do.
Exactly. If one person objects to the change/exception in policy, and many others accept it, why should the will of the majority be over-ruled by the single objection? And I do think exceptions should be made in exceptional circumstances. Not for minor reasons, but when there is a genuine case for an exception to be made, what is gained by sticking blindly and unreasoningly to 'policy' anyway?0 -
From what I gather online, the child self-identifies as female, though the physical biology is male. I would certainly hope no reputable surgeon would conduct a surgical sex-change operation on a young child, nor that any parent would permit that. Gender-determination surgery on a child that displays hermaphroditic charcteristics is something very different.
I can't find anything to say whether or not the cellular or hormonal biology has been explored, but does that really matter?
If this child is truly transgender then why restrict a doctor from preforming the surgery? Or is there some doubt that a child really can identify as a a different sex at such a young age. In which case all the more reason the kid needs to be around other young boys.
I wasn't intending to question the child's self-identification, just hoping that no doctor would perform such a surgery at such a young age, due to the physical immaturity of the body, and the complications that would almost certainly arise at puberty. To do so would potentially cause all sorts of physical and medical problems.
Also the surgery requires intense hormones that a child's body is not prepared for. To even get the surgery you have to start with months of hormonal treatments. I wouldn't pump any child, boy or girl, full of that much estrogen0 -
From what I gather online, the child self-identifies as female, though the physical biology is male. I would certainly hope no reputable surgeon would conduct a surgical sex-change operation on a young child, nor that any parent would permit that. Gender-determination surgery on a child that displays hermaphroditic charcteristics is something very different.
I can't find anything to say whether or not the cellular or hormonal biology has been explored, but does that really matter?
If this child is truly transgender then why restrict a doctor from preforming the surgery? Or is there some doubt that a child really can identify as a a different sex at such a young age. In which case all the more reason the kid needs to be around other young boys.
Transgender surgery is a major operation with several physical risks that can affect development (use of hormones, lack of hormones from removed genetalia, etc.). I would not advocate gender reassignment for children at all. They should be adults when they decide to have this surgery.
Furthermore, I know a friend who had gender reassignment surgery (male to female) and suffered for over a decade with the complications from the surgery (urinary problems, serious hormonal problems affecting her other organ systems, etc.). It is not something to be done off the cuff.0 -
Some of you guys are so ignorant, it honestly disturbs me. I feel like I should stop coming to this group. It's upsetting to see the awful comments people make sometimes.
care to tell us which comments you are taking issue with so that we know? That is what a debating forum is about though, expressing our thoughts.
The comment where someone compared their child not being old enough to start school to a transgendered child wanting to be in girl scouts. Those two things are NOT the same. It's also not the same thing to have a "tomboy" daughter or a transgendered son or daughter. Gender roles also exist, and many of them are not for good reasons.
I never said the purpose of the group was anything other than expressing yourself, I just EXPRESSED that it disturbed me how ignorant some people are. Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature.
If you want to call me ignorant please explain why? I'm bisexual, I've dated and/or been friends with men, women, transsexual, transgender and crossdressing people. I'm and FAR from ignorant when it comes to sexuality or gender identification. That being said, I've never known a transexual or transgender person who has wanted anything more than respect for what they are, not demands to be catered to or to receive special treatment. If they did act that way, I probably wouldnt want to be their friend. Regardless of this case, some people will always find ways to make themself a victim and I think that's a bull**** reason. Life is unfair to every single person at some point in their life.
"Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature." This goes both ways, if you don't agree with anothers opinion, that doesn't give you the right to call them ignorant.0 -
I assume then, that you call out those who insult those individuals with passionate religious beliefs? I don't mean to call you out on this, I just think it's really disingenuous when there are some who tout being open minded and accepting of everyone and then turn around an insinuate that someone else is wrong, oppressive, ignorant, etc. because they do not share the same beliefs nor express themselves the same way. It's something that I see in the debate forum all the time. For me personally, I never espouse personally being open minded and non-judgemental. I'm honest about it, many here aren't or are suffering some serious denial of who they are and what they say/portray. Sorry, that I used your post to point this out, it's not you, it's nearly everyone here who says that they are inclusive but in reality, only when someone agrees with them.Some of you guys are so ignorant, it honestly disturbs me. I feel like I should stop coming to this group. It's upsetting to see the awful comments people make sometimes.
care to tell us which comments you are taking issue with so that we know? That is what a debating forum is about though, expressing our thoughts.
The comment where someone compared their child not being old enough to start school to a transgendered child wanting to be in girl scouts. Those two things are NOT the same. It's also not the same thing to have a "tomboy" daughter or a transgendered son or daughter. Gender roles also exist, and many of them are not for good reasons.
I never said the purpose of the group was anything other than expressing yourself, I just EXPRESSED that it disturbed me how ignorant some people are. Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature.
If you want to call me ignorant please explain why? I'm bisexual, I've dated and/or been friends with men, women, transsexual, transgender and crossdressing people. I'm and FAR from ignorant when it comes to sexuality or gender identification. That being said, I've never known a transexual or transgender person who has wanted anything more than respect for what they are, not demands to be catered to or to receive special treatment. If they did act that way, I probably wouldnt want to be their friend. Regardless of this case, some people will always find ways to make themself a victim and I think that's a bull**** reason. Life is unfair to every single person at some point in their life.
"Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature." This goes both ways, if you don't agree with anothers opinion, that doesn't give you the right to call them ignorant.0 -
What about a kawasaki ninja does your group embrace crotch rockets or only HD?I get what you are saying and I agree....to an extent. I am OK with exclusive clubs and if the Girl Scouts Troop were to have said he is a "male" he is not allowed then i would be OK with that too. But, I don't think that just based off of a Birth Certificate he should be utterly excluded. It was that individual troop's choice to let her in and that's OK. If you're group of bikers wants to exclude my Subaru then that is fine, but what's the harm in another group deciding that my car is OK. It should be up to the troop and more specifically it should be up to the girls in the troop on the leaders. If the girls vote him out then fine, if they vote him in then that's cool too.
I would never turn your Subaru away, but I would give you the option to jump on the back of my bike and hang on.
If you like to ride, we don't care what you ride. My crotch rocket days are over though. Had a couple in my days riding. Now I don't always get there first, but I always get there.0 -
Some of you guys are so ignorant, it honestly disturbs me. I feel like I should stop coming to this group. It's upsetting to see the awful comments people make sometimes.
That's pretty harsh and rude. Ignorant? Becuase we don't share your view. This is a debate forum and you can't have debate without differing view points. If you feel you should stop coming, then stop coming. Won't break my f*cking heart.0 -
I assume then, that you call out those who insult those individuals with passionate religious beliefs? I don't mean to call you out on this, I just think it's really disingenuous when there are some who tout being open minded and accepting of everyone and then turn around an insinuate that someone else is wrong, oppressive, ignorant, etc. because they do not share the same beliefs nor express themselves the same way. It's something that I see in the debate forum all the time. For me personally, I never espouse personally being open minded and non-judgemental. I'm honest about it, many here aren't or are suffering some serious denial of who they are and what they say/portray. Sorry, that I used your post to point this out, it's not you, it's nearly everyone here who says that they are inclusive but in reality, only when someone agrees with them.
"Just because someone is sharing their opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree or embrace it - especially when it's of an oppressive nature." This goes both ways, if you don't agree with anothers opinion, that doesn't give you the right to call them ignorant.
Who's ready to feel a sharp derail? I know I am!
I've heard this argument before and there are problems with it as it relates to this issue. People are born transgendered. They only want to be accepted for who they have no other choice about being. Same as skin color or gender or eye color.
Religion is a choice. And it's EXclusive, not inclusive. If you're a Christian you believe in a heaven for other Christians only. Hey that's fine! Your game, your rules. But don't cry about being EXcluded after that. You've already started that ball rolling with your own belief system.
For me I think people should never be discriminated against because of how they were born. Once you start making your own choices that's on you, not everyone is going to agree or like what you say/believe. There's no reason to be inclusive regarding people you generally do not like/agree with.0 -
Religion is a choice. And it's EXclusive, not inclusive. If you're a Christian you believe in a heaven for other Christians only. Hey that's fine! Your game, your rules. But don't cry about being EXcluded after that. You've already started that ball rolling with your own belief system.
For me I think people should never be discriminated against because of how they were born. Once you start making your own choices that's on you, not everyone is going to agree or like what you say/believe. There's no reason to be inclusive regarding people you generally do not like/agree with.
Generally agreeing with you, but do want to point out, once again, that not all Christians are exclusive in their beliefs. Many of us are quite happy to allow others their own belief systems without judging, or assuming that the other belief is inferior or its' followers are doomed to burn in hell for all eternity
Live, and let live, and all that!
Edit: And I STILL haven't figured out how to quote properly - sorry!0 -
Wait, what? I've never excluded non-Christians from anything. I work at a Catholic school, and we have non-Christian students and teachers here. To what are you referring when you say Christians shouldn't cry about being excluded?Religion is a choice. And it's EXclusive, not inclusive. If you're a Christian you believe in a heaven for other Christians only. Hey that's fine! Your game, your rules. But don't cry about being EXcluded after that. You've already started that ball rolling with your own belief system.0 -
*popcorn*0
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Wait, what? I've never excluded non-Christians from anything. I work at a Catholic school, and we have non-Christian students and teachers here. To what are you referring when you say Christians shouldn't cry about being excluded?Religion is a choice. And it's EXclusive, not inclusive. If you're a Christian you believe in a heaven for other Christians only. Hey that's fine! Your game, your rules. But don't cry about being EXcluded after that. You've already started that ball rolling with your own belief system.
Patti I was being a bit "up in the air" with regards to specific groups and whatnot. I was more responding to Regmama's assertion that open mindedness and inclusion does not translate into people's religious beliefs. I was trying to say that if you are a member of a religion that states "Our way is the truth and the light, all other means of worship are falsehoods." don't be shocked if you're not welcomed with open arms into diverse groups of people.0 -
What religion says that? Not Catholicism. The myth of Catholicism says that, but if you actually read up on the teachings as found in the Catechism you will not find it. As I always say, if you want to know the teachings of a religion look at what their religious documents state, not what someone you know who is of that belief states. Individuals, afterall, don't always get the story straight.
Wait, what? I've never excluded non-Christians from anything. I work at a Catholic school, and we have non-Christian students and teachers here. To what are you referring when you say Christians shouldn't cry about being excluded?Religion is a choice. And it's EXclusive, not inclusive. If you're a Christian you believe in a heaven for other Christians only. Hey that's fine! Your game, your rules. But don't cry about being EXcluded after that. You've already started that ball rolling with your own belief system.
Patti I was being a bit "up in the air" with regards to specific groups and whatnot. I was more responding to Regmama's assertion that open mindedness and inclusion does not translate into people's religious beliefs. I was trying to say that if you are a member of a religion that states "Our way is the truth and the light, all other means of worship are falsehoods." don't be shocked if you're not welcomed with open arms into diverse groups of people.0 -
What religion says that? Not Catholicism. The myth of Catholicism says that, but if you actually read up on the teachings as found in the Catechism you will not find it. As I always say, if you want to know the teachings of a religion look at what their religious documents state, not what someone you know who is of that belief states. Individuals, afterall, don't always get the story straight.
What religion says "I am the way and the truth and the light"? Or "Thou shalt have no other gods before me?"
Why is it some of you act like I'm making these things up out of thin air? Are you ashamed of your beliefs?
Or maybe I've been completely mistaken all these years. Apparently heaven has a very open door policy I was made unaware of in my Catholic upbringing... it's almost like they were teaching me the exact opposite...0
