Graphic Abortion Ad to Air During Superbowl.

BrettPGH

No. It's pro choice. I said if I found out I was pregnant right now I'd be at a clinic tonight. It's my choice. But if I was pro abortion I wouldn't have my sons. Having them was another choice I made. No one is in favor of abortion. I'm pro-not getting pregnant in the first place. But if that doesn't work out then it's up to each individual to decide what alternative choice they want to make.

You are pro-abortion when that's the woman's choice. Period.

That's just twisting what someone says. If someone supports the death penalty in the case of violent, repeat offenders you don't just say "Oh you're pro-death!"

mikajoanow

"The point in making people say it? Well, the pro-choice people are the ones who make the statement that they're not necessarily pro-abortion. I like pointing out that it's the same thing in certain situations. "

Wouldn't that make them not necessarily pro abortion if it is situational?

I've never said to someone, "Hey you should go have an abortion" after they decided to have a kid. That to me would define someone who is 100% pro-abortion in a "non situational" way.

macpatti

I think it's more the sentiment that someone is telling them "I fully believe you're going to this really awful place!" And I have in fact had a friend tell me that while he thinks I'm a great person, it saddens him to know that I'll be going to Hell. aka: that really awful place, in his mind. The connotations with that word (bad, awful, torturous, suffering, etc.) I think, are what sparks the "pissed off" feelings. I don't personally see it that way, but I would guess that's how a lot of atheists/agnostics may feel?

Yeah, I can totally see how it's offensive when someone is saying it in a way that says, "I'm better than you". Like I said, I've never claimed to know who is going to hell. My only point here is how much I respect people who will stand on their convictions.

nehtaeh

What's the point in making people say it? What does that really prove? It's all nit-picky anyway. To me, it's like the difference between atheist and agnostic. Some people get quite annoyed with it - I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things.

The point in making people say it? Well, the pro-choice people are the ones who make the statement that they're not necessarily pro-abortion. I like pointing out that it's the same thing in certain situations.

Since you brought up atheism, I have another example along the same lines. Some atheists get pissed if anyone tells them they're going to hell if they don't believe in God (I've never said that). But I respect the atheist who can say, "Hey, guys, guess what? IF there is a hell, we're going there". Stand on your convictions.

And you are correct, in different situations different labels may be attached, at least where abortion is concerned. That doesn't mean that every person that is pro-choice is for abortion. Personally, I wouldn't get offended at being called pro-abortion, but I don't really care for labels anyway.

My point wasn't about atheists going to hell if there is one, it's about little distinguishing factors in definitions that really have little bearing on the argument as a whole.

macpatti

That's just twisting what someone says. If someone supports the death penalty in the case of violent, repeat offenders you don't just say "Oh you're pro-death!"

They should. If you're okay with killing another human being, you're pro-death in that situation. I do not support the death penalty, by the way.

mikajoanow

I think it's more the sentiment that someone is telling them "I fully believe you're going to this really awful place!" And I have in fact had a friend tell me that while he thinks I'm a great person, it saddens him to know that I'll be going to Hell. aka: that really awful place, in his mind. The connotations with that word (bad, awful, torturous, suffering, etc.) I think, are what sparks the "pissed off" feelings. I don't personally see it that way, but I would guess that's how a lot of atheists/agnostics may feel?

Yeah, I can totally see how it's offensive when someone is saying it in a way that says, "I'm better than you". Like I said, I've never claimed to know who is going to hell. My only point here is how much I respect people who will stand on their convictions.

From what I can tell in this debate only if it fits the definition that you want. I stand by my convition that I am 100% pro choice. Meaning I 100% support someones choice in either abortion or giving birth. You SEEM to only care about calling a pro choice person Pro abortion, while ignoring the other views.

KimmieBrie

Pro choice means exactly that. We support any choice you want to make be it abortion, adoption, or raising it yourself. It may not be the choice we would make but we aren't going to try to force our choice on you. Pro choice people are pro abortion (if that's the mother's choice), pro life (if that's the mother's choice) and pro adoption (if that's the mother's choice).

This ^^^When someone says they are pro-life they actually are anti-choice in all scenarios. When someone says they are pro-choice it means they believe a woman has the right to choose for herself, not necessarily that they would have an abortion, and not that all pregnancies should be aborted. For the pro-lifers it's black and white. For the pro-choice there are areas of grey and yes at times would be pro abortion.

macpatti

From what I can tell in this debate only if it fits the definition that you want. I stand by my convition that I am 100% pro choice. Meaning I 100% support someones choice in either abortion or giving birth. You SEEM to only care about calling a pro choice person Pro abortion, while ignoring the other views.

If you are 100% support (meaning pro) in either abortion or birth, then you are pro-abortion and pro-life, depending on the situation. Why is that a problem to say?

macpatti

This ^^^When someone says they are pro-life they actually are anti-choice in all scenarios. When someone says they are pro-choice it means they believe a woman has the right to choose for herself, not necessarily that they would have an abortion, and not that all pregnancies should be aborted. For the pro-lifers it's black and white. For the pro-choice there are areas of grey and yes at times would be pro abortion.

I totally get that.

mikajoanow

From what I can tell in this debate only if it fits the definition that you want. I stand by my convition that I am 100% pro choice. Meaning I 100% support someones choice in either abortion or giving birth. You SEEM to only care about calling a pro choice person Pro abortion, while ignoring the other views.

If you are 100% support (meaning pro) in either abortion or birth, then you are pro-abortion and pro-life, depending on the situation. Why is that a problem to say?

Okay if you recognize that one could also be pro life then why is it a problem to call it pro choice?

macpatti

Okay if you recognize that one could also be pro life then why is it a problem to call it pro choice?

I don't care what you call it. My point is that pro-choicers don't like to be called pro-abortion, when in fact that's what they are in some situations. I'm just don't see how someone who is pro-choice can also say they are NOT pro-abortion. Of course you are (again in some situations).

mikajoanow

Okay if you recognize that one could also be pro life then why is it a problem to call it pro choice?

I don't care what you call it. My point is that pro-choicers don't like to be called pro-abortion, when in fact that's what they are in some situations. I'm just don't see how someone who is pro-choice can also say they are NOT pro-abortion. Of course you are (again in some situations).

I know someone who is pro choice and anti abortion. She hates abortion but doesn't want to make it illegal because she feels that it would cause more death. Pro-abortion is not a good name for the movement because it doesn't fit everyone. But situational yes I agree, I am sometimes pro abortion. But not every pro choice person is.

CasperO

That's me in a nutshell Mika,

Bahet

Really curious why those who don't mind a woman having an abortion find it so horrible to be called pro-abortion? Why don't you like that term?

Because it's said in a derogatory manner. It's meant as an insult. The words aren't offensive, it's he meaning behind them. Sort of like how fundamentalist Christians don't like it when non believers call them "fundies" or when ultra conservatives take offense to being calle neocons.

atomiclauren

That's me in a nutshell Mika,

Me as well - in the case of labels, I guess it comes down to if it's fair to label a group of people for something conditional (that being pro-abortion for the "if" times - "if" a woman decides to choose that option).

Bahet

In reality I think the pro-life people should actually change what they call themslves. I think they should be anti choice, because that is what they are.

I am absolutely, 100% anti-choice when it comes to abortion. I have no problem with that label. Being pro-choice means that you are open and okay with abortion, making you pro-abortion "if the woman chooses". No?

Absolutely. Also, if someone is in a miserable marriage I think they should be legally allowed to divorce. Does that make me pro-divorce?
I have no problem with being pro abortion. I have a problem with the hostility and ugliness with which it's so often said. I am no more pro abortion than I am pro life or pro adoption or pro divorce or pro vegetarian.

mikajoanow

Absolutely. Also, if someone is in a miserable marriage I think they should be legally allowed to divorce. Does that make me pro-divorce?

Perfect example.

Bahet

OK, well there's another difference between us. Just because a law is passed that wouldn't change my perception of right and wrong. If we were back in Prohibition times you'd be the woman preaching about the evils of alcohol (I don't mean that in a religious way) and I'd be in my basement making small amounts of personal use only homemade wine saying it's none of the government's damn business if I want to have a glass of wine every once in a while.

:laugh: I'd be joining you in the basement. Can we add a small whiskey still?

Absolutely! (Actually, my hubby makes mead - it's like wine but based in fermented honey instead of grapes and doesn't have tannins. )

BrettPGH

Absolutely! (Actually, my hubby makes mead - it's like wine but based in fermented honey instead of grapes and doesn't have tannins. )

Freakin' tannins!




How I Met Your Mother? Anyone?

Bahet

"Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're f@cked."

Ah, it's always credible to quote a comedian in a serious debate. The above is a load of crap.

What part of it is crap? What pro life politician has supported health care, head start, food stamps, welfare, etc? I can't think of any.

Bahet

No. It's pro choice. I said if I found out I was pregnant right now I'd be at a clinic tonight. It's my choice. But if I was pro abortion I wouldn't have my sons. Having them was another choice I made. No one is in favor of abortion. I'm pro-not getting pregnant in the first place. But if that doesn't work out then it's up to each individual to decide what alternative choice they want to make.

You are pro-abortion when that's the woman's choice. Period.

I'm also in favor of her having the right to shave her hair into a mullet and dye it green but that doesn't mean I'm pro mullet.

mikajoanow

I want clowning to remain safe and legal, but I am not pro-clown. They are scary to me, I also think it’s a very bad career choice, but if someone decides to do it, I accept their decision and hope they can do it in a safe legal environment.

Bahet

Kimmy said it better.

futiledevices

So could I say that you are pro-oppression, since you don't believe in women making choices about their own bodies?

KimmyEB

Kimmy said it better.

I'm not sure what it is that I said better, but thank you! lol

castadiva

OK, well there's another difference between us. Just because a law is passed that wouldn't change my perception of right and wrong. If we were back in Prohibition times you'd be the woman preaching about the evils of alcohol (I don't mean that in a religious way) and I'd be in my basement making small amounts of personal use only homemade wine saying it's none of the government's damn business if I want to have a glass of wine every once in a while.

:laugh: I'd be joining you in the basement. Can we add a small whiskey still?

Absolutely! (Actually, my hubby makes mead - it's like wine but based in fermented honey instead of grapes and doesn't have tannins. )

Mmm, delicious! Mead is very good stuff! :happy:

manderson27

If we want to get technical the Dr would be the one actually comitting the act, the woman would be the accessory. I would say give the "Dr's" prison, and definitely some kind of penalty for the woman. I have a friend who has had multiple abortions simply because she doesn't like to use condoms and she doesn't like the pill. If it were illegal she wouldn't have done it, especially if she had to go to some quack who didn't know what he was doing
[/quote]

The above is a quote but I seem to have incorporated it into my response.

There are numerous forms of BC out there surely something suitable could be found rather than having her womb scraped out. Even the morning after pill?

I believe a woman has the right to choose but it abortion should be a last resort in a desperate situation surely.

Bahet

If we want to get technical the Dr would be the one actually comitting the act, the woman would be the accessory. I would say give the "Dr's" prison, and definitely some kind of penalty for the woman. I have a friend who has had multiple abortions simply because she doesn't like to use condoms and she doesn't like the pill. If it were illegal she wouldn't have done it, especially if she had to go to some quack who didn't know what he was doing

The above is a quote but I seem to have incorporated it into my response.

There are numerous forms of BC out there surely something suitable could be found rather than having her womb scraped out. Even the morning after pill?

I believe a woman has the right to choose but it abortion should be a last resort in a desperate situation surely.

Thanks, I wanted to address that too. It's more than a bit ludicrous. If you don't like condoms or the pill there are shots, IUDs, sterilization, Norplant, etc. Frankly, anyone that stupid has no business having children anyhow.

KimmyEB

If we want to get technical the Dr would be the one actually comitting the act, the woman would be the accessory. I would say give the "Dr's" prison, and definitely some kind of penalty for the woman. I have a friend who has had multiple abortions simply because she doesn't like to use condoms and she doesn't like the pill. If it were illegal she wouldn't have done it, especially if she had to go to some quack who didn't know what he was doing

The above is a quote but I seem to have incorporated it into my response.

There are numerous forms of BC out there surely something suitable could be found rather than having her womb scraped out. Even the morning after pill?

I believe a woman has the right to choose but it abortion should be a last resort in a desperate situation surely.

Thanks, I wanted to address that too. It's more than a bit ludicrous. If you don't like condoms or the pill there are shots, IUDs, sterilization, Norplant, etc. Frankly, anyone that stupid has no business having children anyhow.

I don't consider myself stupid, but I don't like any of those options, lol. I can't have the IUD, sensitive to condoms (yes, even the ones specially made for sensitive people...go figure) and everything else, to my knowledge, has hormones...which I absolutely refuse to add to my body ever again. Sterilization is a good option. Unfortunately...I've yet to find a doctor who is willing to do that for me. :mad: This is exactly WHY I feel any woman over the age of 18 should be able to get her tubes tied if she wants to. It's not fair that any guy over 18 can walk into a clinic and get a vasectomy, but a woman has to be at least 30+ before she can get her tubes tied.

nikolaim5

I hope none of you pro-lifer's eat meat. That would represent a huge double standard in your murder theory no? Don't tell me it's different because it's human either. Fully grown animals have far more mental capacity than any human fetus.