Graphic Abortion Ad to Air During Superbowl.

macpatti

And that's how you "get labeled as only caring about the fetus and not the woman".

Thoughts?

You're completely ignoring what I said about the churches, food pantries, shelters, homes to help these women. You're trying to say if we support a politician who wants to cut down on programs that help lower income families, then we care more about the woman than the fetus. That is a false comparison.

macpatti

I have yet to hear an adoptee say that they wish they weren't born.

"I've noticed everyone that is for abortion has already been born".~ Ronald Regan

Regmama

I think that the problem daffodilsoup, and others, have raised is valid. I'm quite willing to agree that many anti-abortion groups do provide significant support to women in crisis. The problem is that this support rarely lasts beyond a child's early months, or occasionally years, and often is only available during the pregnancy itself. If a woman is unprepared for motherhood, or has other practical issues that will compromise the child's life, support becomes even more necessary after the child is born, and may remain necessary until the child reaches the age of majority.

I guess I just don't understand why so many people look at keeping the child or aborting the child as the only two viable options.

I would imagine because adoption, the only other real option, is seen to be equally traumatic for both mother and child, in the long run, whether that trauma is immediate or occurs later on in life. I'm sure there are many adoptions that work out brilliantly, but these are rarely publicised, and the experience of the mother giving up the child is rarely publicly (that looks wrong!) discussed. My impression is that a woman who has carried a foetus for nine months, and given birth to a child, will almost always have forged a strong bond with it, especially in the later months of pregnancy. To sever that bond, from everything I have ever heard or read, is profoundly traumatic, and continues to be so throughout the mother's life. A woman also would have to contend with the knowledge that at some point the child she had given away would almost certainly discover that he or she was adopted, and the struggles often faced in handling this by adoptive children are widely discussed in the press. From what my mother says, most mothers would do anything to avoid hurting their child.

I imagine you would argue that abortion is a mother harming or hurting a child anyway, but then we come back to the question of perception of when life begins, and when a group of cells/zygote/foetus becomes a child.

THere is trauma with all three options in a crisis pregnancy. But you know what, most adoptions do work out brilliantly. And there are many who are in open adoptions, and while that presents it's own challenges, it works. Those of us from closed adoptions have differnet challenges, but as the laws change, many are getting the openness that they have longed for. One thing most adoptees hate is everyone telling us how we feel or how our experience was. Instead, why not listen. And my first mother says every time that she "did right" by placing me for adoption. IS there guilt? yep, but now there is also healing.

daffodilsoup

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt children but cannot because there are not enough children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" children!

(Statistics by: National Council for Adoption, Childwelfare.gov & Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute )

And, childbirth and it's effects on a woman vary per woman and pregnancy. For the child, however, it is a matter of life or death. No one said adoption is an easy choice. None of the choices are easy and all have consequences that will last a lifetime. However, I have yet to hear an adoptee say that they wish they weren't born. Same with children who were born from a crisis pregnancy. 53 millions souls were murdered in the womb in the US since 1973, how is that defensible?

Really, not enough kids to adopt? Somehow this doesn't sit right with me, there are children looking for loving homes all over the world. I don't believe that just because a woman becomes pregnant, she is somehow responsible to give birth and give the child up for adoption so that another couple can adopt it. I won't have my reproductive rights taken away because some people believe that a cluster of cells should have the same rights as an adult human, and I certainly don't believe that a woman should have to endure childbirth because of someone else's opinions.

Again, we will have to politely disagree here because you believe that a fetus has rights that are equal to - or trump - its mother's, and I do not. I will side with the rights of the mother every single time until she gives birth because she has definite personhood while the fetus' status is still up for debate. That's why I don't think it's fair to equate abortion to murder.

As for adoptees, etc. wishing that they had never been born - sure, because they've been born and are experiencing life. But you can't miss you what you don't have. Would it be better to have another 53 million people on the planet? Some might say yes, I say no.

adrian_indy

Back to the original thread, about the commercial. Where do we stop? I understand the thought process behind showing graphic abortion pics and video to shock people into awareness. But seriously, should we air anti-STD commercials showing men getting the warts lasered off their penises? This "for the greater" good mentality could be applied to endless issues where we could shock the living hell out of the viewer. Thing is, last time I checked, people didn't tune into the SuperBowl to think about serious issues.

castadiva

One thing most adoptees hate is everyone telling us how we feel or how our experience was. Instead, why not listen. And my first mother says every time that she "did right" by placing me for adoption. IS there guilt? yep, but now there is also healing.

I'm sorry if you took my comments as an attempt to tell adoptees how to feel or about their own experiences - I was attempting to comment on public perception of adoption rather than representing my own views. I'm very glad that your experience of adoption has been positive. Unfortunately, the experiences of those I know personally who have been adopted, or have adopted themselves, have not been overwhelmingly positive, and the press is far more inclined to publish these stories than the many undoubted successes.

CasperO

And that's how you "get labeled as only caring about the fetus and not the woman".

Thoughts?

You're completely ignoring what I said about the churches, food pantries, shelters, homes to help these women. You're trying to say if we support a politician who wants to cut down on programs that help lower income families, then we care more about the woman than the fetus. That is a false comparison.

I didn't say that. I answered your question. Why do some folks have the perception that conservative 'pro-life' folks love fetuses but don't give a flip about children? Because most of them support politicians that wish to dismantle the safet net. That's how the perception is formed.

If you say that's not fair, or a 'false comparison', that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

dragonbait0126

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt children but cannot because there are not enough children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" children!

(Statistics by: National Council for Adoption, Childwelfare.gov & Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute )

On the flip side of this, there are many people who would love to adopt but are not ALLOWED to. I'd love to adopt a child. I've even looked into but because of the strict requirements and stipulations, I can't. My husband and I don't make enough money or live in a large enough place to prove that we could provide a loving and stable home for the child. I don't know that the whole truth is that there aren't enough people willing to adopt. Yes, I will agree that there are many people who are not willing to but there are a large number of people who are willing to and don't get to for one reason or another. I'd love to see statistics on how many people are interested in adopting but can't. Also, if I had a child via pregnancy no one would say a thing. I have insurance that would help me pay for all the doctors visits and the cost of labor. No one would come to my house, look into my life to determine if I'm good enough to be a mother, or look at my financials. But if I say I want to adopt a child it's a whole different matter.

castadiva

Back to the original thread, about the commercial. Where do we stop? I understand the thought process behind showing graphic abortion pics and video to shock people into awareness. But seriously, should we air anti-STD commercials showing men getting the warts lasered off their penises? This "for the greater" good mentality could be applied to endless issues where we could shock the living hell out of the viewer. Thing is, last time I checked, people didn't tune into the SuperBowl to think about serious issues.

Ah yes, the original question! I think the problem here is the context rather than, necessarily, the content. If someone wishes to make a gruesome advertisement or public service program, they are within their rights to do so. However, choosing to display it at a time and in a place where it will be seen by many for whom the content is distressing and/or inappropriate, particularly (and rather ironically) children, is insensitive in the extreme, and shows a wilfull disregard for the rights of those affected in pursuit of a political goal.

macpatti

.]I didn't say that. I answered your question. Why do some folks have the perception that conservative 'pro-life' folks love fetuses but don't give a flip about children? Because most of them support politicians that wish to dismantle the safet net. That's how the perception is formed.

I don't recall asking a question. Here is what I typed:

I love how we pro-lifers get labeled as only caring about the fetus and not the woman. Churches around the world have programs to help women who are pregnant and don't want an abortion. We fund hot lines to help women considering abortion. We fund the Gabriel Project. We make trips to family shelters. We have food pantries. We open our homes to teenage girls who are pregnant and need a place to live during their pregnancy and adopition process. We don't just sit on our arses praying and do nothing else. I can't stand that argument. And for those of us who can't donate a dime, there is nothing wrong with only praying for the unborn. We also pray for the women.

I wasn't asking why.

Regmama

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt children but cannot because there are not enough children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" children!

(Statistics by: National Council for Adoption, Childwelfare.gov & Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute )

On the flip side of this, there are many people who would love to adopt but are not ALLOWED to. I'd love to adopt a child. I've even looked into but because of the strict requirements and stipulations, I can't. My husband and I don't make enough money or live in a large enough place to prove that we could provide a loving and stable home for the child. I don't know that the whole truth is that there aren't enough people willing to adopt. Yes, I will agree that there are many people who are not willing to but there are a large number of people who are willing to and don't get to for one reason or another. I'd love to see statistics on how many people are interested in adopting but can't. Also, if I had a child via pregnancy no one would say a thing. I have insurance that would help me pay for all the doctors visits and the cost of labor. No one would come to my house, look into my life to determine if I'm good enough to be a mother, or look at my financials. But if I say I want to adopt a child it's a whole different matter.

Quite true which is why the law needs to be adjusted, for sure. Adoptees have been fighting to change many adoption laws because they are usually taylored for the birth parents and/or the adoptive parents, never for the best interest of the child. My husband and I are in the same boat as you. We would love to adopt and add more children to our family but our schedule and finances would cause an agency to tell us to wait until we're in a better position. I would suggest you go and join forums.adoption.com It's a great site!

CasperO

Here, let me fix this for you:

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children but cannot because there are not enough (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children!

We had a couple of fosters. They were not (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children, and nobody was lining up to take them.

Regmama

Here, let me fix this for you:

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt children but cannot because there are not enough (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children!

We had a couple of fosters. They were not (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children, and nobody was lining up to take them.

Were they eligible to be adopted? Many children in the foster system are not eligible for adoption because the rights of the parents have not been legally terminated.

CasperO

.]I didn't say that. I answered your question. Why do some folks have the perception that conservative 'pro-life' folks love fetuses but don't give a flip about children? Because most of them support politicians that wish to dismantle the safet net. That's how the perception is formed.

I don't recall asking a question. Here is what I typed:

I love how we pro-lifers get labeled as only caring about the fetus and not the woman. Churches around the world have programs to help women who are pregnant and don't want an abortion. We fund hot lines to help women considering abortion. We fund the Gabriel Project. We make trips to family shelters. We have food pantries. We open our homes to teenage girls who are pregnant and need a place to live during their pregnancy and adopition process. We don't just sit on our arses praying and do nothing else. I can't stand that argument. And for those of us who can't donate a dime, there is nothing wrong with only praying for the unborn. We also pray for the women.

I wasn't asking why.

True, no question mark there. I inferred a need for an explanation. You didn't ask for an explanation and clearly don't want one. Fair enough.

On with the debate.

CasperO

Here, let me fix this for you:

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt children but cannot because there are not enough (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children!

We had a couple of fosters. They were not (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children, and nobody was lining up to take them.

Were they eligible to be adopted? Many children in the foster system are not eligible for adoption because the rights of the parents have not been legally terminated.

They were troubled teens. We didn't really think in those terms, you don't change a 14 year old's last name. We fed them and loved them and raised them, but we didn't consider legal adoption. They're both outstanding young men.

KimmieBrie

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all.
There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children. Have your remote controls ready.

macpatti

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

Correct. It is non anti-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all. There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children.

I totally agree that it should not be so graphic that children cannot see it.

castadiva

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all.
There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children. Have your remote controls ready.

I concur. On all points.

CasperO

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all.
There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children. Have your remote controls ready.

I don't think I've ever met/heard/spoke with ANYBODY who was truly "pro-abortion".

BrettPGH

Here, let me fix this for you:

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children but cannot because there are not enough (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children!

We had a couple of fosters. They were not (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children, and nobody was lining up to take them.

*jumps on chance to repeat SNL joke*

"In adoption news today China has made it possible for gay american couples to apply in the adoption process. So prepare yourself for a wave of young Asian girls named Liza."

fbmandy55

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all.
There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children. Have your remote controls ready.

I don't think I've ever met/heard/spoke with ANYBODY who was truly "pro-abortion".

I think I saw 3 different people post yesterday that they were. In fact. I saw once poster who was ok with abortion as birth control.

mikajoanow

Here, let me fix this for you:

Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children but cannot because there are not enough (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children!

We had a couple of fosters. They were not (PERFECT HEALTHY WHITE INFANT) children, and nobody was lining up to take them.

I had a friend who worked in adoption and she basically said the same thing. People "say" all kinds of things, but the fact is more of those children are passed over.

I wanted to adopt a few years ago and I would have gladly taken any child without too many health issues but sadly most of the systems I ran into are set up so that someone like me would have to lie about their beliefs in order to get a child.

macpatti

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

"The term “pro-choice” should really embody all of the “pro” stances on every issue; it shouldn’t just define one issue. When someone refers to themselves as pro-choice, what choice are they referring to? Abortion. So what they are saying is that they believe it is fine for someone to obtain an abortion, which makes them pro-abortion. If you believe people have the right to form and join unions even if you would never join one, you are pro-union. Would you be angry that someone referred to you as pro-union? Would you say I just believe in the choice to join a union, but I am not pro-union? Of course not.
The use of the word choice shows that it is all about the stigma of being called pro-abortion; is there a stigma if there is nothing wrong with abortion? Why would people be so opposed to being referred to as pro-abortion if abortion is perfectly acceptable"?

CasperO

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

Correct. It is non anti-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all. There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children.

I totally agree that it should not be so graphic that children cannot see it.

Not true. I'm strongly anti-abortion. I hate it and think it should never happen, deeply opposed to abortion on moral grounds. However, I'm pro-choice because I don't believe legal prohibition is a reasonable solution to the problem.

macpatti

I think I saw 3 different people post yesterday that they were. In fact. I saw once poster who was ok with abortion as birth control.

Thank you. There were several people who said if right now they found out they were pregnant, they'd go abort. That, my friends, is pro-abortion.

mikajoanow

Pro choice does not mean anti abortion either. It means you support a womans right to do what she feels is best for her body and that includes having a child.

If someone thinks that using abortion as birth control is the best method for them, I don't care outside of the fact that I personally think its stupid. It costs a whole lot more to have an abortion than it does to avoid it in the first place. So doing it over and over again would not be in the benefit of anyone.

I would also like to add, that some forms of birth control can actually cause what one might consider an abortion. I know at least one will change the uterine lining so that if an egg where to be fertilized it would not be able to attach.

fbmandy55

I think I saw 3 different people post yesterday that they were. In fact. I saw once poster who was ok with abortion as birth control.

Thank you. There were several people who said if right now they found out they were pregnant, they'd go abort. That, my friends, is pro-abortion.

After checking back, on page 8 of this thread, 3 people in a row said "I don't really mind abortion being used for birth control'. I don't knwo what could be more 'pro-abortion'.

KimmieBrie

I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

I think showing graphic commercials during the Superbowl is really not appropriate at all.
There's a wide viewing audience, including very young children. Have your remote controls ready.

I don't think I've ever met/heard/spoke with ANYBODY who was truly "pro-abortion".

There are some circumstances where I see abortion as acceptable = incest, rape, medical problems.
Non acceptable = birth control. Some women have had many abortions. Pretty sure those women are pro abortion though they'd probably never say it out loud.But those are my own personal moral beliefs. It is not for the big G to step in and make you explain - like any of them have a moral leg to stand on.

A victim of rape or incest need not then be subjected to having to explain their subsequent actions to me, the government, or anyone else for that matter. Their situation is hard enough as is their choice. Though this is the exception not the rule - it's none of my business.

That's what I mean when I say I am pro choice, not pro abortion. You can pick at my choice of words if you like. I guess in some circumstances technically I would be seen as pro abortion.

macpatti

Really curious why those who don't mind a woman having an abortion find it so horrible to be called pro-abortion? Why don't you like that term?

atomiclauren

Not true. I'm strongly anti-abortion. I hate it and think it should never happen, deeply opposed to abortion on moral grounds. However, I'm pro-choice because I don't believe legal prohibition is a reasonable solution to the problem.

These are my thoughts exactly (that I may have expressed over the course of several posts in this topic, but not so cohesively :blushing: ). There are also pretty big semiotic/semantic/stigmatic/whatever you want to call it issues with the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" (and "pro-abortion," which I hadn't come across much until now).

ETA - patti, your question posted at the same time as I posted this and maybe I was almost answering it..

I think it really comes down to what I quoted from CasperO above - personal opposition, but beleiving that legislation against it is not the answer. Pro-abortion seems to insinuate something you strive for and in our case, it isn't abortion, but for *her* to have the option to make the choice, not us or a legislative body.