Does training format matter?

grinch031

So I was inspired by a thread on the main forum called 'misinformation'. It talks about the posters distinguishing between things that are necessary to lose weight verses things that are personal preference.

Anyways, I was wondering what your thoughts are on what is necessary for marathon training verses what is personal preference. And by this I mean things like training volume, running days per week, speed vs. easy runs, frequency and length of long runs, and even the use of GU and such.

scottb81

I think the only thing that is truly necessary for running "well" is training volume and speed/stamina work. Everything else falls into place on its own around that.

* As much volume as your body can handle. Should increase from cycle to cycle. Probably a minimum of around 60 miles/wk.
* One tempo run per week to build stamina and LT.

Marathons can certainly be run on less than that but performance will be sub-optimal.

grinch031

Do you think it matters how you spread out your miles? For instance would it be better to run 8 miles once or 4 miles twice?

scottb81

I am not an expert and am still travelling up the learning curve, but I do read a lot and am experimenting with my training.

I think it is most important to train by time rather than distance since the body reacts to a training stress (intensity x time) rather than a set distance. So, volume of time (but even at 10-12 min miles it still comes in at around 60 miles). Based on what highly successful / elite marathoners do this is around 10 to 12 hours of running per week at good aerobic paces, some high (up to LT) and some low (as needed). Spread over the week this can be 2 x 1 hr runs, 2 x 90 min runs, 1 x 2 hr run, 1 x 90 min to 3 hr run. This is six days a week, and allows for one rest day. On top of that, a second run of any distance at a gentle pace on as many days as the body can handle. The 90 minute and 2 hr runs are necessary to generate the specific physiological adaptations needed to run faster for longer.

Essentially, that is Arthur Lydiard's system for the base building phase, except he doesn't allow for the seventh day of rest. I need that day though. I have been training with this system since late Nov and have noted some pretty good improvements, especially in my ability to train harder day by day and still recover for the next run. I also am in the best running shape of my life right now.

arc918

My $.02: on this site there are two different kinds of approaches to marathons. One is "I am just looking to survive the distance." The other is "I am looking to master this evil *kitten* distance and run it well."

Props to everyone who is looking to get 26.2, whether they take 3 hours or 6+ hours.

My focus falls on the "run the distance well" side of the fence. I define well by understanding my level of fitness well enough to head out and run even splits (or something close). It is AWESOME to be the guy (or gal) passing other runners over the last few miles of the course rather than being the one getting passed.

As far as running singles vs. doubles, to me double have always been the domain of the high mileage runners. I rarely run more than 65 miles per week, so no need for doubles. I'm thinking most runners are better served by an 8 miler than two 4 milers, but it guess it depends what you are trying to accomplish.

grinch031

What about the 20-miler? Is it necessary? I've read conflicting sources where some say you only need to run somewhere between 2:30 and 3:00 on your longest run, and others that advocate the 20-miler as crucial. For fast runners it wouldn't make a difference because 20 miles will be done within that time frame, but for a 5-hour marathoner, is it necessary?

I'm BTW not a 5-hour marathoner, but a sub-4 marathoner hoping to drop down to 3:30ish either this race or maybe next year, we'lll see how it goes. My weekly mileage is a little bit lacking (35-45), but i'm also down 15 lbs and its been a year since my last marathon.

thepetiterunner

I think it's largely a mental thing. You can follow most any plan you want to. I think the absolute important ingredients are:

1. You are in relatively good shape and can handle running long distances.
2. You are mentally determined to succeed.
3. You know how your body works as far as hydration and fueling.

That said, I ran my first marathon when I probably shouldn't have. My training got derailed during the last 6 weeks or so (new distraction, the boyfriend) and so my longest run EVER prior to this was about 16 miles. I tried taking an electrolyte pill for the first time during the race. I luckily had fuel that I was used to eating (tortillas), but anyone who followed "conventional" training plans would have called me flat out nuts for doing it.

That said, I did the run and survived the distance. I didn't hit the perfect time I wanted, but I crossed the line on my feet and happy. I recovered within 2 days and was running on the third day post-race.

I really think running is 90% mental after a certain distance.

arc918

My $.02 - I KNOW I need to run 20 milers, the more the better.

Mental is well and good, and that may get you through a half marathon but a marathon is another story. All the mental in the world isn't going to keep you on pace at mile 23.

You need the mental for sure, but you need the training to back it up. You also need to understand the pace that you can hold fromt he start without bonking late in the race.

ETA: dropping 15 lbs will help a bunch!

FoxyMcDeadlift

A slight deviation, but i am interested on your guys opinions as ever.

My marathon is April 22nd, however my local half marathon is April 1st, on a weekend where im meant to be running a 20 miler. Can i get that half marathon in? I dont want to do a double, i was thinking more i might do my long rong on the saturday, then take the HM easy on the sunday.

Is this mental? Could i swap the 20 miler? If i move it either way im either doing 2 20 milers in a row, or im moving it into my taper period?

rybo

As usual ARC with great advice.

It seems the over whelming consensus for maximizing your potential when running a marathon is lots and lots of miles. (Arrogantly stated over @ RW forums 1,000's of times over)

But not everyone has the desire, time or ability to want to develope thier body's full marathon potential.

New to marathons,(1 ran) I am in the category of "I have a set time allotted to train, I'd like to do the best I can given those constraints". I'm only a 35-45 mpw runner, so I try to get everything I can out of each mile. I've tried to find a balance in my training with a long run, a medium long run, a stamina run and then a general aerobic run each week. Sometimes those get shuffled but that's the basic premise. I'll be doing 3-20's this cycle, just because I think that makes sense for me.

One last thing to add is that I do think people respond to different training plans better than others. Some are naturally fast w/no endurance. Some can run all day at a turtles pace. picking a workout plan to work on your weakenesses, and use your strengths can take time to figure out, but once you do, I think it will really help.

scottb81

What about the 20-miler? Is it necessary? I've read conflicting sources where some say you only need to run somewhere between 2:30 and 3:00 on your longest run, and others that advocate the 20-miler as crucial. For fast runners it wouldn't make a difference because 20 miles will be done within that time frame, but for a 5-hour marathoner, is it necessary?

I think that for someone running high mileage, a 20 miler is not strictly necessary. The reason is that by running on tired legs nearly every day you get the same physiological response by running a two to three hour run as you would get on fresh legs running longer to get to 20 miles. That is the recruitment and training of additional muscle fibers that normally don't do any work during shorter runs. That is the basis of the Hanson's program max long run at 16 miles.

Ironically, if someone builds up and maintains high mileage for a period of months it won't be long before their 20 mile training pace will be somewhere around three hours or less anyway.

arc918

A slight deviation, but i am interested on your guys opinions as ever.

My marathon is April 22nd, however my local half marathon is April 1st, on a weekend where im meant to be running a 20 miler. Can i get that half marathon in? I dont want to do a double, i was thinking more i might do my long rong on the saturday, then take the HM easy on the sunday.

Is this mental? Could i swap the 20 miler? If i move it either way im either doing 2 20 milers in a row, or im moving it into my taper period?

A couple choices:

1) Run the race as a part of a 20 miler. You get to the race early, run for an hour, time it so you finish up ~ 5 minutes before the start. Boom 20 miles and your race. Might not work if the race is too big.

2) Flip your 20 to the following and use a two week taper instead of three (I always do a two taper)

I would not run 20 and then do the half the next day (unless your legs are used to high mileage recovery runs). If you tell me you always do 10 the day after your 20s, then I would say perhaps go for the half after the 20.