Football: Putting Bounties on players

LuckyLeprechaun

Now I just wanted to find a topic we can hash out that cannot go religious or political. (I think) So here goes:

Please help fill in the details for me, I am shaky on the full story, but from what I gather (from half-listening to ESPN this morning), there are some football teams in trouble because the coaching staff put bounties on opposing players. So the offensive players could get financial bonuses for taking out certain high-profile players. (As I said, I was only half listening, and I welcome your adding to the story for clarity/completion)

I just don't quite understand the whole kerfluffle over this. Isn't that EXACTLY what football is? We are paying these guys to smash into each other, for our amusement, right? So what's the big deal?

(For the record, I also don't get why steroids is such a big deal......pass em out, see baseball improve......what's the big whoop?)

BrettPGH

Shoot this might be the most argumentative thread we've ever had.

I haven't read the article, please tell me Pittsburgh isn't guilty of this. People can say what they want but I've always loved that my team played tough, hard nosed football but did it with class.

But I guess I'm biased as everyone always accuses guys like Hines and Harrison of playing dirty and taking cheap shots. I just don't see it. I see men playing football the way it's meant to be played. Hard.

LuckyLeprechaun

Google says Gregg Williams

MikeSEA

I think it probably just depends on how one views football, and possible sports in general, and what we mean by sportsmanship. I don't not a big sports fan. Sometimes I'll watch tennis or a hockey game, but nothing else really interests me.

If we view football as a battlefield, then sure. Use whatever strategies and tactics you like. Take out their best player in whatever painful you choose to keep them from playing, I guess. I think it lacks a certain level of sportsmanship and honor, but I understand that that's just my opinion on things.

Ideally, again in my own opinion, the game should be about performance and strategy on playing field that's as level as possible; I don't think being a bounty hunter, in this context, should really fall within the skillset of a pro athlete. Is the object of the game to win at any cost, or is the object of the game to make goals? What's the focus--putting people out of commission or being an elite athlete? Where's the line between MMA and football? If you want to beat me by being the better player, then fine. If you want to beat me dislocating my shoulder, then not so fine. Might as well give them weapons at that point.

As far as performing enhancing steroid use goes, again it muddles the playing field. You end up with situation where athletes end up being forced to take harmful drugs just to compete. I don't really see the point. The advantage of using steroids is that other people aren't gaining the same effects in the same way that the advantage of cheating on standardized test is that the other students don't have the answers ahead of time.

LuckyLeprechaun

it was Gregg Williams. defensive coordinator for the St. Louis Rams.

Avalonis

I think it probably just depends on how one views football, and possible sports in general, and what we mean by sportsmanship. I don't not a big sports fan. Sometimes I'll watch tennis or a hockey game, but nothing else really interests me.

If we view football as a battlefield, then sure. Use whatever strategies and tactics you like. Take out their best player in whatever painful you choose to keep them from playing, I guess. I think it lacks a certain level of sportsmanship and honor, but I understand that that's just my opinion on things.

Ideally, again in my own opinion, the game should be about performance and strategy on playing field that's as level as possible; I don't think being a bounty hunter, in this context, should really fall within the skillset of a pro athlete. Is the object of the game to win at any cost, or is the object of the game to make goals? What's the focus--putting people out of commission or being an elite athlete? Where's the line between MMA and football? If you want to beat me by being the better player, then fine. If you want to beat me dislocating my shoulder, then not so fine. Might as well give them weapons at that point.

As far as performing enhancing steroid use goes, again it muddles the playing field. You end up with situation where athletes end up being forced to take harmful drugs just to compete. I don't really see the point. The advantage of using steroids is that other people aren't gaining the same effects in the same way that the advantage of cheating on standardized test is that the other students don't have the answers ahead of time.

I was gonna type up a whole post, but Mike said it all.

That.

BrettPGH

:laugh: Well in that case nevermind. The Rams need any advantage they can get!! :laugh:


Seriously though it's dirty football. You never try and hurt anyone intentionally. You can try to hit them so hard they never want to play the game again, but you never try to injure a fellow player.

LuckyLeprechaun

:laugh: Well in that case nevermind. The Rams need any advantage they can get!! :laugh:


Seriously though it's dirty football. You never try and hurt anyone intentionally. You can try to hit them so hard they never want to play the game again, but you never try to injure a fellow player.

2 scenarios:

1. I'm trying to hit him so hard he never wants to play again. So I hit him as hard as I can. I accidentally break his leg, tear the ACL, and his season is now over.

2. I'm trying to collect a bounty, so I hit him as hard as I can, and I create the same injury.

In both situations, I was trying to hit him as hard as I can, which is THE point of football, right? Nobody expects NFL players to "pull their punches", we want full speed collisions, right?

So why are the 2 situations different? Because of the intention of the player to get money?

MikeSEA

:laugh: Well in that case nevermind. The Rams need any advantage they can get!! :laugh:


Seriously though it's dirty football. You never try and hurt anyone intentionally. You can try to hit them so hard they never want to play the game again, but you never try to injure a fellow player.

2 scenarios:

1. I'm trying to hit him so hard he never wants to play again. So I hit him as hard as I can. I accidentally break his leg, tear the ACL, and his season is now over.

2. I'm trying to collect a bounty, so I hit him as hard as I can, and I create the same injury.

In both situations, I was trying to hit him as hard as I can, which is THE point of football, right? Nobody expects NFL players to "pull their punches", we want full speed collisions, right?

So why are the 2 situations different? Because of the intention of the player to get money?

Yes, intention matters. And while I'm no football expert. I suspect you can prevent another player from doing their job without using excessive amounts and types of force. If what I'm trying to do is actually take someone out, there are ways to hit someone to achieve that goal efficiently and specifically. Anyone is free to correct me on that topic, but you might as well give football players martial arts and combat training if we turn a blind eye to that type of behavior.

LuckyLeprechaun

My husband had a bounty system of sorts in high school. His high school football coach was Dlck Vermeil (yes, that one) and Hubby had broken his helmet crashing into someone. Dlck told him that he'd give him $20 for every helmet he smashed. So he proceeded to be the most agressive, head smashing player he could be. Ultimately landed him a scholarship to SMU and a spot on the 'Boys.

Is that wrong?

MikeSEA

My husband had a bounty system of sorts in high school. His high school football coach was Dlck Vermeil (yes, that one) and Hubby had broken his helmet crashing into someone. Dlck told him that he'd give him $20 for every helmet he smashed. So he proceeded to be the most agressive, head smashing player he could be. Ultimately landed him a scholarship to SMU and a spot on the 'Boys.

Is that wrong?

To encourage unnecessary head injuries in the guise of appropriate aggressiveness on the field? Yes, I think it is wrong...just my opinion, though. I clearly think of sports differently than the coach.

ArroganceInStep

2 scenarios:

1. I'm trying to hit him so hard he never wants to play again. So I hit him as hard as I can. I accidentally break his leg, tear the ACL, and his season is now over.

2. I'm trying to collect a bounty, so I hit him as hard as I can, and I create the same injury.

In both situations, I was trying to hit him as hard as I can, which is THE point of football, right? Nobody expects NFL players to "pull their punches", we want full speed collisions, right?

So why are the 2 situations different? Because of the intention of the player to get money?

Not football but I played rugby in college. Even when trying to hit as hard as you can, there are boundaries. I'm not talking about official rules (those get broken all the time), I'm talking about lines which players don't cross to keep the game from becoming too dangerous.

Example:

You're going to tackle someone running straight at you.

A) You go low, wrap him up at the legs below his waist, and take the force of collision on your shoulder. You drive through and if your form is good and you have more force going your way, he'll fall backwards and be tackled. He can get injured this way, but it's a 'clean' tackle
You go high, wrapping at the neck. Your goal isn't to stop his momentum, it's to keep his body's momentum going forward while throwing your momentum at his head. This maximizes force on his neck, and can kill the person.

Which one do you think maximizes your chances of cashing in on the bounty? And if the other team sees you doing something like that to their teammate, what do you think they're going to do to your guys? I think to one of my earlier matches in high school. A big dude came and tackled my team captain illegally, landing him on his head. He had to get carried off the field. A little while later I had him open field and went for a single leg tackle on his knee at an angle rather than a proper wrap up. He blew out his knee. He was still in crutches 4 months later when we played their team again at the playoffs. At the time I felt like justice had been done, but really I was no better than he was. What would have happened if one of his guys decided to do the same thing again to one of my teammates? It's a vicious cycle.



Pro athletes are looked to as role models (which I think is stupid but that's another argument entirely). Although this 'kill at all costs' mentality is common across contact sports, it's important that it doesn't become a coaching tactic. Trying to hit someone as hard as you can to win the game, let off aggression, impress the ladies, whatever is one thing. When that changes to trying to hit someone specifically to hurt them, it's quite another beast entirely. The tactics change if the end goal changes, and the sport will be worse off for it if those goals turn negative.

My $0.02

nehtaeh

My husband had a bounty system of sorts in high school. His high school football coach was Dlck Vermeil (yes, that one) and Hubby had broken his helmet crashing into someone. Dlck told him that he'd give him $20 for every helmet he smashed. So he proceeded to be the most agressive, head smashing player he could be. Ultimately landed him a scholarship to SMU and a spot on the 'Boys.

Is that wrong?

Yes, that is wrong, especially at a high school level. There is so much research being done on head injuries now and their long-term effect that officials and higher-ups are trying to create ways to penalize or avoid these types of things from happening. In today's world, when you incentivize someone to crash head's it is in direct conflict from what everyone else is doing to ensure your safety.

I think about hockey as I love it. Guys like Sydney Crosby, not my fave but a pretty good player, have been out for over a year with 'concussion-like symptoms'. Before new rules were in place, he would be playing. No one would care that he's got stuff going on in his head that is pretty damaging and can be turning his brain into mush. So, they have a lot of checks before they get cleared now, and a lot of guys are sitting because of it.

As for the bounty thing - I believe it started as New Orleans and I believe Washington was implicated. It's the players putting in money to give incentive to injure other players. They get more money for hitting someone in a way that they have to be carted off the field. IMO that is wrong. If it happens, it's unfortunate, but it happens...it's part of the game. But to do it on purpose, and then have a money system in place because it was on purpose is just ludicrous. Details are still coming out. I don't know if the coaches are putting this system in place or if they simply know about it and don't stop it, or encourage it. I think it's different for each coach and each organization.

However, it makes the controversy over Detroit's Suh this year seem a little less outlandish.

LuckyLeprechaun

Interesting take on the helmet thing......luckily his head is very hard and he was never hurt, or even dazed. His shoulders sustained a whole lot more damage over time (from all those clean hits).

ArroganceInStep

Interesting take on the helmet thing......luckily his head is very hard and he was never hurt, or even dazed. His shoulders sustained a whole lot more damage over time (from all those clean hits).

The shoulder damage sucks, but is less likely to cause permanent brain damage or death.

If you want my opinion, your husband was as successful as he was in spite of the bounty system in high school, not because of it (and I recognize that I know nothing about him beyond that fact).

fbmandy55

Now I just wanted to find a topic we can hash out that cannot go religious or political. (I think) So here goes:

Please help fill in the details for me, I am shaky on the full story, but from what I gather (from half-listening to ESPN this morning), there are some football teams in trouble because the coaching staff put bounties on opposing players. So the offensive players could get financial bonuses for taking out certain high-profile players. (As I said, I was only half listening, and I welcome your adding to the story for clarity/completion)

I just don't quite understand the whole kerfluffle over this. Isn't that EXACTLY what football is? We are paying these guys to smash into each other, for our amusement, right? So what's the big deal?

(For the record, I also don't get why steroids is such a big deal......pass em out, see baseball improve......what's the big whoop?)

I think it is wrong. There is a difference between playing hard and being cheap. Intentionally hurting someone is just low and pathetic. If a team wins that way, it doesn't make them the best but the cheapest in my opinion.

LuckyLeprechaun

Haha I think he was successful for a couple of reasons, having Dlck Vermeil as a coach is just one of them (his HS football team was undefeated for all 4 years), but in addition to that, my hubby was extremely strong, fast, and had a lot of pent-up anger at that time of his life. I don't think the helmet bounty was a huge factor, but he still tells the story of how many helmets he busted with pride

fbmandy55

Here is an article from sports illistrated that my cousin was part of last year as a junior in high school. Purdue researchers monitored his head throughout the season. Interesting study!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1176377/index.htm

ArroganceInStep

Haha I think he was successful for a couple of reasons, having Dlck Vermeil as a coach is just one of them (his HS football team was undefeated for all 4 years), but in addition to that, my hubby was extremely strong, fast, and had a lot of pent-up anger at that time of his life. I don't think the helmet bounty was a huge factor, but he still tells the story of how many helmets he busted with pride

I can relate to the mentality. My favorite war story was for getting sin-binned (basically a red card) in college, literally, for hitting someone too hard. The tackle was completely clean but the guy I hit punctured a lung and the ref got flustered when the ambulance had to rush the field. I feel bad for the guy, yes, but I'm extremely proud of the hit.

I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from your husband's skill and determination (pent up anger for the win) and I would agree that a lot of things, include his coaching, went into his ultimate success. That being said, I still stand by the belief that his success would have been greater (albeit probably very marginally so) if that effort spent on bounties was directed towards cleaner play. There's a certain amount of aggression, and a killer mentality, that's really needed to succeed in these kinds of sports, but venting those emotions cleanly keeps everyone on the field safer (including your husband) and, in my opinion, makes the game as a whole 'better'.

KimmieBrie

Football is my favorite sport. Rodney Harrison is my all time favorite player. He was called the "dirtiest" player.... please. Football is a tough physical sport. Plenty of players are hurt during "clean" play. The fact is, unless you're in the locker room with them, you have no idea what the coaches are telling them for motivation, and really, who cares? Aren't there bonuses in contracts for meeting certain criteria anyway? That's also a monetary incentive as well as the millions they get paid.They are paid to intentionally physically stop other players. Injuries are part of the game. They are always trying to intentionally hurt each other in some way to slow each outher down.Every team has a game plan to target and stop certain individuals. And what do you think goes on at the bottom of a pile on a loose ball? The players all understand what the game entails.They are in top physical amazing shape. Every game I watch I'm amazed that players bouce right back up from hits that would knock me out. Try doing the football speed run in place with up downs!

If this sort of thing bothers you, find another no contact sport like golf.

ArroganceInStep

Football is my favorite sport. Rodney Harrison is my all time favorite player. He was called the "dirtiest" player.... please. Football is a tough physical sport. Plenty of players are hurt during "clean" play. The fact is, unless you're in the locker room with them, you have no idea what the coaches are telling them for motivation, and really, who cares? Aren't there bonuses in contracts for meeting certain criteria anyway? That's also a monetary incentive as well as the millions they get paid.They are paid to intentionally physically stop other players. Injuries are part of the game. They are always trying to intentionally hurt each other in some way to slow each outher down.Every team has a game plan to target and stop certain individuals. And what do you think goes on at the bottom of a pile on a loose ball? The players all understand what the game entails.They are in top physical amazing shape. Every game I watch I'm amazed that players bouce right back up from hits that would knock me out. Try doing the football speed run in place with up downs!

If this sort of thing bothers you, find another no contact sport like golf.

There is a tremendous difference between bonuses being paid out for legal play that advances your teams position against the opponent, and actively trying to maim someone. To put it to an extreme, it would be relatively easy to smuggle a blade on the field. I'm certain people don't think it would be in the sport's best interest to have players running around stabbing each other. Just because I don't want to see football degraded to a gang fight doesn't mean I don't have the stomach to watch it.