If this doesn't enrage you, you're not a human being.....

Azdak

I read a story tonight that still has me shaking. Entitled "Cancer vs the Constitution", it is written by a doctor about her experience with an indigent, uninsured patient she treated in an emergency room.

I don't believe in quoting entire articles--authors and their publishers deserve the web traffic for their work, so here is the link:

http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/cancer-v-the-constitution/

It's not very long.

Fair use does allow a few citations. The subject was a women who showed up at the ER with vaginal bleeding that turned out to be cervical cancer:

She hadn’t gone to the doctor because she had no health insurance. The only kind of work she could get in a struggling rural community was without benefits. Her coat and shoes beside the gurney were worn and her purse from another decade. She could never afford to buy it on her own. She didn’t qualify for Medicaid, the local doctor only took insurance, and there was no Planned Parenthood or County Clinic nearby.

She graphically describes the woman's symptoms and gives a detailed description of the limits placed on the ability of medical caregivers to treat her. One example:

The radiation doctors were also not allowed to see uninsured patients. They could not even give a dying women a few weeks of radiation to ease her tumor’s stench while it caused her to bleed to death or killed her another way. They could give her one dose today. A very temporary measure for the bleeding, but only if her blood count was low enough. It wasn’t because she’s had the blood transfusion to get her here.

You really have to read the article to get a true sense of the futility.

I had never encountered this clinical scenario during my training in Canada. I had never seen a woman suffer because she couldn’t afford something as simple as a Pap smear, never mind deal with the indignities of shopping around her sorrow and hard luck to try to patch together what would inevitably be inadequate medical therapy. It is this reality of medical care in America for which I was wholly unprepared. Many times I found the residents comforting me.

When the richest nation in the world cannot--no, I take that back--WILLFULLY REFUSES- to provide even basic care to all of its citizens, it is a moral outrage. The outrage is made worse in that the lack of care does not stem from inadequate resources, but merely to protect the outsized profits of insurance companies. Like so much else in the US today, those with money can buy whatever legislative support they need to rig the game in their favor, regardless of the hardship and pain it causes everyone else.

It is a staggering moral failure.

adrian_indy

I will read this tomorrow, but had to throw this out there. How come all the people who are morally outraged at ObamaCare as an infringing on civil liberties...supported the Patriot Act?

Nopedotjpeg

I will read this tomorrow, but had to throw this out there. How come all the people who are morally outraged at ObamaCare as an infringing on civil liberties...supported the Patriot Act?

Because they're politicians.

Azdak

I will read this tomorrow, but had to throw this out there. How come all the people who are morally outraged at ObamaCare as an infringing on civil liberties...supported the Patriot Act?

That's a different topic. Rather than sidetrack this one, I am just going to say that one thing I have learned in my 58 years is that people across the ideological spectrum are not consistent in their positions. It just does to show that we often respond to these issues for other emotional reasons than the supposed "reasons" that we state.

elelat

That would had never happened in Cuba.

adrian_indy

I will read this tomorrow, but had to throw this out there. How come all the people who are morally outraged at ObamaCare as an infringing on civil liberties...supported the Patriot Act?

That's a different topic. Rather than sidetrack this one, I am just going to say that one thing I have learned in my 58 years is that people across the ideological spectrum are not consistent in their positions. It just does to show that we often respond to these issues for other emotional reasons than the supposed "reasons" that we state.

Sorry, I will try to stay on point. But I am trying to make the argument that it seems our nation doesn't really care about civil liberties as long as it's not theirs getting messed with. If you look at what I mentioned earlier, as far as this being an issue of our rights and Obamacare taking those rights away, well I would have to say that I would be more tolerant of government interence in my life in order protect thousands of american citizens who are suffering or dying every year than giving up a myriad of rights to protect me from the slimest of slim chances that a goat herder from go****yourselfistan might kill me in a terrorist attack. That was the only point I would like to make.

I do acknowledge, however that I do know little about the proposed plan. WHen it came out was about the time I quit watching most the news, and I would love to see medical care for everyone. But I have first hand knowledge of government run healthcare, the VA, and it is a nightmare. The people are great, but there is not enough to go around. If we can't take care of our smallest minority group, veterans, in a proper fashion, I have my doubts about a nation wide plan.

atomiclauren

It's a failure indeed, and just one example. I've always been a strong proponent of universal health coverage and I think we desperately need to start taking bigger steps, even following in footsteps of other nations. We have the ability, we have the money (if apportioned), and we have the brains to make it successful (for examples of others - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/)

Hell, I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a condition that with the way some anti-health (as I call them) people act, I should have been euthanized long ago. The good part for me - the place I work for provides subsidized group insurance.

I also know I could lose it rather easily and it's a scary thought.

Bahet

I don't see how anyone can be pro life and be against universal health insurance. Yet, many of the people against UHC claim to be pro life. I don't get it.

It really comes down to money. People against UHC think it will cost them more. They fail to understand that bandaids don't really cost $200. But hospitals charge that because they have to make up the cost from all the people like that woman in the OP, the mom with no insurance who uses the ER like a pediatrician and doesn't/can't pay the bill, etc. It really won't cost more and will probably cost a lot less. But greedy people who still think it will cost more despite proof to the contrary still don't want to pitch in a few dollars to save a human being. It's a damn shame.

Elizabeth_C34

The American healthcare system is a nightmare. I just spent most of last week in the hospital because I was fainting and collapsing every time I stood up. First ER visit, they didn't even do the right tests. They just sent me home with a script for Aspirin 81mg daily. Second day, still feeling incredibly weak and lethargic, back to hospital. They kept me overnight for "observation" and I fainted 3 more times when I got up to pee. Started having short term memory loss. They sent me home that morning. Finally, after 3 more days of not feeling so great at home, I went BACK to the ER after my cardiologist called the head of the emergency room and pre-admitted me. They FINALLY did the right tests. Turns out, I have vasovagal syncope, a not uncommon problem where my blood pressure doesn't get up high enough when I stand. 3 trips to the hospital in less than a week before I got enough care to even get a diagnosis, and I have outstanding health insurance.

I've known people like the person referenced in this article who could not afford a pap smear and ended up with cervical cancer. One girl I knew in college had a full blown tumor on her cervix before they found it. She had to have a full historectomy and a full round of chemo and radiation. The total cost of care was close to $500,000 when it was all said and done. She was 22 when they found the tumor and 24 when it finally went into remission. The medical bills were so daunting that she had to file for bankruptsy and couldn't get loans to go back to college (she was a 4.0 student on scholarship when she got sick).

We live in a broken society where all we care about is money. The bottom dollar means more than human life here, and I find it very sad. It will be the undoing of this nation.

Andy's argument about the VA system being bad is very legitimate also. It's terrible, but if it were properly funded and managed, it could be outstanding. That's what we need is not a half-assed VA style system, but a high quality, well funded, and smartly built and managed system that deals with the real problems (cost of care, free preventative care, etc.). It is impossible to get that in a free market style healthcare system (as we are seeing now). It has to be government-managed.

Bahet

I will read this tomorrow, but had to throw this out there. How come all the people who are morally outraged at ObamaCare as an infringing on civil liberties...supported the Patriot Act?

That's a different topic. Rather than sidetrack this one, I am just going to say that one thing I have learned in my 58 years is that people across the ideological spectrum are not consistent in their positions. It just does to show that we often respond to these issues for other emotional reasons than the supposed "reasons" that we state.

Sorry, I will try to stay on point. But I am trying to make the argument that it seems our nation doesn't really care about civil liberties as long as it's not theirs getting messed with. If you look at what I mentioned earlier, as far as this being an issue of our rights and Obamacare taking those rights away, well I would have to say that I would be more tolerant of government interence in my life in order protect thousands of american citizens who are suffering or dying every year than giving up a myriad of rights to protect me from the slimest of slim chances that a goat herder from go****yourselfistan might kill me in a terrorist attack. That was the only point I would like to make.

I do acknowledge, however that I do know little about the proposed plan. WHen it came out was about the time I quit watching most the news, and I would love to see medical care for everyone. But I have first hand knowledge of government run healthcare, the VA, and it is a nightmare. The people are great, but there is not enough to go around. If we can't take care of our smallest minority group, veterans, in a proper fashion, I have my doubts about a nation wide plan.

Tricare/VA medical needs to be properly staffed in order to function. When hubby went to Iraq we lived in SE Michigan. There were no military bases within 60 miles of us. We got Tricare insurance since hubby was military at the time (reservist). We had to go to a not so nice area of town, change docs from ones we liked, and a wellchild visit would typically result in at least a 2 hour wait in the waiting room. It was awful.

On the other hand, when we were in Germany hubby was civillian but a retired reservist. We didn't get Tricare but we could use the base clinic for shots for school and things like that. Maybe the difference was that it was a military base and therefore they knew and staffed accordingly but we never waited more than 10 minutes, everyone was friendly and professional, and overall it was among the best medical dealings we ever had.

Hubby is now working for the Federal government so we get government healthcare of a sort. It's been fabulous. I had surgery last month. I had a hysterscopy, laproscopy, D&C, and Novasure to remove my left ovary and a 7cm cyst. I went back to the hospital 5 days later because my leg hurt so much we thought it might be a blood clot. I spent the better part of the day in the ER (being cared for - not waiting). Total experience cost us only $150.

When we lived in AZ we were near Luke AFB. While we didn't have any sort of military or goevernment insurance then (hubby was just a civillian) we knew plenty of people in my parents' active adult neighborhood who did have retired military insurance and not a one of them had anything bad to say about it. Really, the only thing I don't like is that active duty can retire and use it immediately forever while reservists retire and have to wait until they are full retirement age to have it. For us, since hubby was a career reservist, that means that if he retired young we'd be without health insurance until that kicked in. Now that he's with the government, that worry is eliminated too.

People like to complain about military insurance and yes, there can be some horrible experiences, but compared to having no insurance at all it's wonderful and even compared to a lot of regular private insurance plans it can be anywhere from much better to much worse.

adrian_indy

Agreed, it is better than nothing. But I have to wait months at a time to get an appointment with my doc at the VA. Then he has to order tests which takes weeks to schedule. Then I wait for a week and I finally call to see what the results were, but I can't get through to the doc because first I have to talk to some receptionist/nurse, who decides whether or not I can talk to the Blue Team nurse, who then relays a message to my nurse who then talks to my doc. I have to repeat that process over and over. Is it better than no insurance....sure. But 4 months ago we realized that my BP was dropping abnormally low during work outs and after 30,000 phone calls to these people they finally did an echo on my heart. I waited 2 weeks to hear the results, which was nothing wrong with my heart, and then was told....just take it easy. I guess it's of no concern when a 33 year old man can't do moderate exercise with out barfing or nearly passing out (including sex). So a month ago I put in a request for a new doctor. My request has been granted instantly, I have finally spoken to my new nurse who said she would relay my problems to the doctor. I have made several phone calls and left messages and haven't received a new phone call yet.

So don't think my experiences are rare. This crap is all too common. The quality of care is fine for the most part, but they are wickedly understaffed. I have at least a few friends who are eligible for VA healthcare due to disablities who instead pay out of pocket for insurance so they don't have to deal with this. I tries, but at age 27 I was turned down by every insurance company I applied too because of injuries due to my military service, so I'm stuck.

Bahet

Those things all happen with private insurance too. I've been nothing but impressed with the doctors here in Virginia. We can get an appointment same day with hardly any issue ever. But when we were in MI or AZ that was not the case. At all. I once called DS2's pediatricians office because he woke up from his nap wheezing and coughing. He was 1 year old. The nurse said she could get him seen in 3 days. Seriously?? A 1yr old with breathing problems is going to take 3 days?? I told her what I thought of that and she said she'd check with the doctor and see if she could see him. Fortunately, the doc was wonderful. She said to bring him in and she'd stay late just for us. It turned out he had pneumonia and ended up in the hospital for 3 days. 3 days that the office had expected me to keep him home until he could be seen.

In AZ hubby had an impacted wisdom tooth. He went to the dentist (had to wait a week) and they screwed it up. It was hurting even worse. They said they couldn't get him in for another 2 1/2 weeks. Unfortunately, DH went to Germany ahead of the kids and me and was flying out in a week. When he got to Germany he called a local dentist (German). He saw him immediately and removed the tooth without pain.

While we were in Germany we went to the doctor a few times. We always preferred the German doctors. More often than not when I would try to get in for a sick kid I'd have to ask for a later appointment because they'd offer to see us in 30 minutes or so. IMO, that's because Germany has universal health. The doctors offices aren't crowded with people who are really sick because they can get seen before a cold turns into pneumonia or a sore throat turns into strep.

adrian_indy

My allergist at the VA, phenomenol, as is the mental health people and the head Chaplain. But they just have to much a workload. I am friends with a psychologist there, and the turn over rate is astounding, which leaves many vets fustrated because the trust they have given the counselor is for nothing and they have to start all over again. It's a numbers game, and the VA does not have the numbers.

One of my favorite politicians/TV personalities is Jesse Ventura. He cracks me up because he called it like it is. THe far right of this country is always sniffing soldiers trousers telling them they are heroes and they want to take care of them. Well if the soldiers deserve the best, then why do we give them goverment ran healtcare. They say it's the most terrible thing on earth. So they are giving vets the most terrible health care?! Things to think about.

Oh, and sorry Adzak, I derailed this thread. I won't talk about the VA anymore.

TheRoadDog

That would had never happened in Cuba.

I'll chip in for a ticket to Cuba.

nehtaeh

This makes me so sad to hear stories like this, and they are far too common. I just can't understand the mentality that money means more than people.

How do we fix this? How do we ensure that routine pap smears are able to be done for everyone to avoid women losing their life for something that is pretty treatable. I don't think anyone can say we don't have a problem. The solution is a bit harder to come by.

TheRoadDog

I don't care what people spend their money on, what charities they give to or what persons they decide to help. I'm tired of people deciding who I spend my money on.

If you want healthcare in America and it's decided that I must pay (by popular vote), then I just have a few requests.
Be an American citizen.
Pay taxes.

If you came here from another country seeking a better life, good for you, but quit putting your hand out and expecting that I pay or that I need to speak your language. It's getting ridiculous. Pay your fair share. Get a job.

fbmandy55

I don't care what people spend their money on, what charities they give to or what persons they decide to help. I'm tired of people deciding who I spend my money on.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

To me, giving up the freedom to use your earned money as you wish, whether it be help others or not help others, is not right. I'm not cold-hearted (I love babies and old people and my heart breaks for the homeless) but I am realistic. Allowing the government to force healthcare on people, force people to pay for it and pay for others to have it is opening a door to letting the government force other things. Besides, any program run by the government ends up a failure..I'll stick with my employer-plan insurance.

Bahet

I don't care what people spend their money on, what charities they give to or what persons they decide to help. I'm tired of people deciding who I spend my money on.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

To me, giving up the freedom to use your earned money as you wish, whether it be help others or not help others, is not right. I'm not cold-hearted (I love babies and old people and my heart breaks for the homeless) but I am realistic. Allowing the government to force healthcare on people, force people to pay for it and pay for others to have it is opening a door to letting the government force other things. Besides, any program run by the government ends up a failure..I'll stick with my employer-plan insurance.

How is that "opening a door to letting the government force other things"? I've never heard a real answer to that. We have to have car insurance. Is that opening a door? We have to pay income and sales and property tax. Is that "opening a door"? If not then how is this really any different?

I also disagree that any program run by the government ends in failure. Or is our military a failure? Are our police and fire services failures? When you go to your kitchen do you get clean water? Can you breathe without a mask? Have we been invaded by other countries? Did you get mail today? Do you know any elderly person who only has insurance because of medicare? Yes, some things could be run more efficiently. But if you think private insurance jacking up co-pays and premiums so the CEO can buy a gold toilet for his yacht and hospitals charging $200 for a bandage to make up for people with no insurance using the ER like a clinic is better then I'm just dumbfounded.

You do know that if you have an employer provided plan you could still keep it under UHC right? I know the talking heads have tried to mislead people on that one. Right up there with "death panels" :rolleyes:

I also don't think you are quoting Franklin right. No one gives up any liberty for safety under UHC. Unless by "liberty" you mean the right to not have health insurance and force everyone else to pay for any medical disaster you might have." I'd rank that right up there with saying that paying my car insurance is giving up liberty. He wasn't referring to petty stuff like that but more like things like the Patriot Act. However, since you like Franklin quotes, how about this one: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power."

mikajoanow

I don't care what people spend their money on, what charities they give to or what persons they decide to help. I'm tired of people deciding who I spend my money on.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

To me, giving up the freedom to use your earned money as you wish, whether it be help others or not help others, is not right. I'm not cold-hearted (I love babies and old people and my heart breaks for the homeless) but I am realistic. Allowing the government to force healthcare on people, force people to pay for it and pay for others to have it is opening a door to letting the government force other things. Besides, any program run by the government ends up a failure..I'll stick with my employer-plan insurance.

Under Obamacare you can keep your insurance through your employer.
Under the status quo system, *I* already pay for the uninsured including those who could afford to buy insurance but choose not to take on the expense. Those people still get sick and when they do, they still seek care and many times those very same uninsured people choose once again to not pay their bills and they file for bankruptcy. Passing the cost onto the hospitals and care providers who pass the cost onto every single person who pays their bills. So unless we are going to switch to a true “you’re on your own” system where we deny healthcare to everyone unless they can pay up front, I am not all that worried about it.

---

As for the OP that is disturbing. A Planned parenthood could have actually saved this woman's life. I guess that doesn’t matter much nowadays when you only count if you have a few dollars to your name.

fbmandy55

I don't care what people spend their money on, what charities they give to or what persons they decide to help. I'm tired of people deciding who I spend my money on.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

To me, giving up the freedom to use your earned money as you wish, whether it be help others or not help others, is not right. I'm not cold-hearted (I love babies and old people and my heart breaks for the homeless) but I am realistic. Allowing the government to force healthcare on people, force people to pay for it and pay for others to have it is opening a door to letting the government force other things. Besides, any program run by the government ends up a failure..I'll stick with my employer-plan insurance.

How is that "opening a door to letting the government force other things"? I've never heard a real answer to that. We have to have car insurance. Is that opening a door? We have to pay income and sales and property tax. Is that "opening a door"? If not then how is this really any different?

I also disagree that any program run by the government ends in failure. Or is our military a failure? Are our police and fire services failures? When you go to your kitchen do you get clean water? Can you breathe without a mask? Have we been invaded by other countries? Did you get mail today? Do you know any elderly person who only has insurance because of medicare? Yes, some things could be run more efficiently. But if you think private insurance jacking up co-pays and premiums so the CEO can buy a gold toilet for his yacht and hospitals charging $200 for a bandage to make up for people with no insurance using the ER like a clinic is better then I'm just dumbfounded.

You do know that if you have an employer provided plan you could still keep it under UHC right? I know the talking heads have tried to mislead people on that one. Right up there with "death panels" :rolleyes:

I also don't think you are quoting Franklin right. No one gives up any liberty for safety under UHC. Unless by "liberty" you mean the right to not have health insurance and force everyone else to pay for any medical disaster you might have." I'd rank that right up there with saying that paying my car insurance is giving up liberty. He wasn't referring to petty stuff like that but more like things like the Patriot Act. However, since you like Franklin quotes, how about this one: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power."

I'd like to point out that I am a single mom, I make less than $30,000 a year and I have no dental or vision insurance and just very basic medical. I have wisdom teeth that cause me headaches and pain daily and are starting to knock out other teeth. I have very outdated bifocal glasses that give me headaches yet I still don't expect anyone to pay for me to have these things taken care of.

The government agencies I was referring to were federal- I like my police and fire for the most part but they are local agencies. And yes, the military is a mess, Adrian described what the health care was like and the cost spending is out of control. From a financial standpoint, I think there is nothing done right in the military. Same goes for SS and medicare. The postal service is a joke, because of their cost issues and cutbacks and a local office closing, I only get mail every other day if it doesn't get lost. In fact, I recently had to go 4 days with no gas and hot water because the wonderful USPS mailman lost my check. I found out a few of my neighbors have had the same issue. I received a piece of mail at work that had been postmarked by the sender 8 months before we actually received it.

Focusing on getting the unemployed jobs and making it easier for people to get insurance through employers would be my preference, as well as bringing down actual costs of healthcare, not just making everyone pay for it. My mother complains that she doesn't have health insurance but she left a job where she DID have it to become self employed, KNOWING that is would be hard to get that taken care of it. Now she want's it at taxpayer expense.

The Patriot Act was opening a door, followed by NDAA and now government forced healthcare. If someone doesn't want to pay for healthcare, how is right for the federal government to make them do it? When the government FORCES people to pay for or have anything that is not a right given under the constitution, let alone pay for others, that is a loss of liberty.

Azdak

My allergist at the VA, phenomenol, as is the mental health people and the head Chaplain. But they just have to much a workload. I am friends with a psychologist there, and the turn over rate is astounding, which leaves many vets fustrated because the trust they have given the counselor is for nothing and they have to start all over again. It's a numbers game, and the VA does not have the numbers.

One of my favorite politicians/TV personalities is Jesse Ventura. He cracks me up because he called it like it is. THe far right of this country is always sniffing soldiers trousers telling them they are heroes and they want to take care of them. Well if the soldiers deserve the best, then why do we give them goverment ran healtcare. They say it's the most terrible thing on earth. So they are giving vets the most terrible health care?! Things to think about.

Oh, and sorry Adzak, I derailed this thread. I won't talk about the VA anymore.

That's OK--I wasn't trying to control the discussion--I just didn't want to get into a "who's a bigger hyprocrite" pie fight. I'm not here to decide what other offshoot topics are "acceptable".

Bahet

I'd like to point out that I am a single mom, I make less than $30,000 a year and I have no dental or vision insurance and just very basic medical. I have wisdom teeth that cause me headaches and pain daily and are starting to knock out other teeth. I have very outdated bifocal glasses that give me headaches yet I still don't expect anyone to pay for me to have these things taken care of.

The government agencies I was referring to were federal- I like my police and fire for the most part but they are local agencies. And yes, the military is a mess, Adrian described what the health care was like and the cost spending is out of control. From a financial standpoint, I think there is nothing done right in the military. Same goes for SS and medicare. The postal service is a joke, because of their cost issues and cutbacks and a local office closing, I only get mail every other day if it doesn't get lost. In fact, I recently had to go 4 days with no gas and hot water because the wonderful USPS mailman lost my check. I found out a few of my neighbors have had the same issue. I received a piece of mail at work that had been postmarked by the sender 8 months before we actually received it.

Focusing on getting the unemployed jobs and making it easier for people to get insurance through employers would be my preference, as well as bringing down actual costs of healthcare, not just making everyone pay for it. My mother complains that she doesn't have health insurance but she left a job where she DID have it to become self employed, KNOWING that is would be hard to get that taken care of it. Now she want's it at taxpayer expense.

The Patriot Act was opening a door, followed by NDAA and now government forced healthcare. If someone doesn't want to pay for healthcare, how is right for the federal government to make them do it? When the government FORCES people to pay for or have anything that is not a right given under the constitution, let alone pay for others, that is a loss of liberty.

You don't think that an inability to see accurately can affect someone else? Ever see the movie My Cousin Vinnie? Would you want to be on the road with that lady with the glasses? I sure wouldn't. Regardless though, no one is talking about vision or dental. There is a world of difference between not being able to afford to have a wisdom tooth pulled and not being able to afford to see a doctor when you are having chest pain.

I know Adrian commented on the VA. I did too. I know a LOT of people who wouldn't have any health insurance at all if it weren't for them or their spouse being retired military. One guy in particular wasn't feeling well at all and had a lot of stomach pain. He didn't want to go to the doctor. His wife made him. He was retired military so he has healthcare otherwise he couldn't have afforded to go and would have refused. It turned out to be his appendix. He was in the hospital for 2 weeks. Having insurance through the military (he was retired military and his civilian job didn't offer healthcare) literally saved his life. Another friend of mine had cervical cancer. She couldn't work. Her husband was also unemployed. Fortunately he was retired military so they had insurance. Otherwise she'd be dead - just like a friend of hers who had breast cancer, n insurance, and couldn't get treatment much like the woman in the OP.

You keep asking how is it right to have to buy healthcare. I don't get it. How is that any different than having to pay taxes or buy auto insurance? You seem to think you don't pay for other people's healthcare now. You are mistaken. I don't mean just medicaid/medicare. I mean $200 bandages in the hospital. You aren't losing any liberties. What liberties do you think you would lose, especially since you already have employer covered healthcare? You say you want to reduce the costs of healthcare. You do realize that UHC would do that right? It's been proven time and again. Of course, some people think the Earth is 6000 years old and Iraq was behind 9/11 so I suppose that proof doesn't always equal understanding.

You say you are a single mom making under $30,000. Does that mean that I and others lost our liberty when we were forced to pay you more in a tax refund than you had taken out last year?

kit_katty

This topic makes me, once again, glad to be Canadian. I have two close relatives that have had cancer. No (direct) cost for chemo, radiation, doctors, surgery (one was rather major) or hospital stays. Oh, or home care nurses.

However, I do acknowledge that our system is far from perfect as well. There are holes, apparently male breast cancer is not covered (WTF?!) but so far, the majority of the people I know for the majority of health concerns have not have to pay much if any. (Not including eyes and glasses or dentists, but doctors and such)

Bahet

Saw these on Facebook. Too appropriate not to share.

The government can strip-search you at will, imprison you without charges, invade other countries in violation of international law, mandate you undergo a transvaginal probe, execute or even assassinate you... But make you buy health insurance? That's going too far.


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=name&id=1509676596#!/photo.php?fbid=395335730477411&set=a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866&type=1&theater

I can't seem to post just the cartoon itself for some reason. meh.

adrian_indy

Saw these on Facebook. Too appropriate not to share.

The government can strip-search you at will, imprison you without charges, invade other countries in violation of international law, mandate you undergo a transvaginal probe, execute or even assassinate you... But make you buy health insurance? That's going too far.


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=name&id=1509676596#!/photo.php?fbid=395335730477411&set=a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866&type=1&theater

I can't seem to post just the cartoon itself for some reason. meh.

Like!

atomiclauren

Heh! Here is the picture so folks don't have to cut/paste:

castadiva

The state of US healthcare, and the virulent opposition to universal, state-funded healthcare, baffles me, and most of the rest of the western world. No, our systems are not perfect, but at least the health of every individual is safeguarded by access to competent medical care, regardless of ability to pay. In the UK, National Insurance (paid by all earners at a variable rate, though on average for the self-employed(me) about £2-3/week, which seems like a pretty good insurance premium, and not too much 'charity' to contribute for the care of those who do not or cannot earn, to me!) and tax revenues cover almost all costs within the NHS structure. A small payment is required for prescriptions (£7-8, and free for birth control and under some circumstances), dentistry (around £20 for a check-up, and a little more for fillings etc, but still a fraction of the total cost) and vision checks (also around £20). Drug companies are held to reasonable prices by the knowledge that unless the drug is revolutionary and has no feasible alternative, the country simply won't purchase it for use - in a large market, a strong incentive to keep prices in check.

Private health insurance is available, but uptake is low, as for the majority, it simply isn't necessary. I have an ear infection right now; the cost to me of a GP visit and prescription? £7.85, plus my NI premiums for the year, and a proportion of my income tax, which I would have to pay anyway. If I visit the doctor more than once a year, I'm getting pretty good value for my contribution!

I actually am in favour of NHS reform, if it delivers more medics on the floor, and less bureacracy, but even as is, it's a pretty good model, as are those employed by France, Germany, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Canada et al.

Azdak

When I read some of the comments opposing the ACA, this poem by Thomas Brown comes to mind:

I do not like thee, Doctor Fell,
The reason why, I cannot tell;
But this I know, and know full well,
I do not like thee, Doctor Fell.

DoingItNow2012

How is that "opening a door to letting the government force other things"? I've never heard a real answer to that. We have to have car insurance. Is that opening a door? We have to pay income and sales and property tax. Is that "opening a door"? If not then how is this really any different?

I also disagree that any program run by the government ends in failure. Or is our military a failure? Are our police and fire services failures? When you go to your kitchen do you get clean water? Can you breathe without a mask? Have we been invaded by other countries? Did you get mail today? Do you know any elderly person who only has insurance because of medicare? Yes, some things could be run more efficiently. But if you think private insurance jacking up co-pays and premiums so the CEO can buy a gold toilet for his yacht and hospitals charging $200 for a bandage to make up for people with no insurance using the ER like a clinic is better then I'm just dumbfounded.

You do know that if you have an employer provided plan you could still keep it under UHC right? I know the talking heads have tried to mislead people on that one. Right up there with "death panels" :rolleyes:

I also don't think you are quoting Franklin right. No one gives up any liberty for safety under UHC. Unless by "liberty" you mean the right to not have health insurance and force everyone else to pay for any medical disaster you might have." I'd rank that right up there with saying that paying my car insurance is giving up liberty. He wasn't referring to petty stuff like that but more like things like the Patriot Act. However, since you like Franklin quotes, how about this one: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power."

^^^ This for the most part.

fbmandy55

Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.


"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

atomiclauren

edited - I shouldn't post more about this since I'm a moody commie (summon McCarthy, quick!) :blushing: