If this doesn't enrage you, you're not a human being.....
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You don't think that an inability to see accurately can affect someone else? Ever see the movie My Cousin Vinnie? Would you want to be on the road with that lady with the glasses? I sure wouldn't. Regardless though, no one is talking about vision or dental. There is a world of difference between not being able to afford to have a wisdom tooth pulled and not being able to afford to see a doctor when you are having chest pain.I'd like to point out that I am a single mom, I make less than $30,000 a year and I have no dental or vision insurance and just very basic medical. I have wisdom teeth that cause me headaches and pain daily and are starting to knock out other teeth. I have very outdated bifocal glasses that give me headaches yet I still don't expect anyone to pay for me to have these things taken care of.
The government agencies I was referring to were federal- I like my police and fire for the most part but they are local agencies. And yes, the military is a mess, Adrian described what the health care was like and the cost spending is out of control. From a financial standpoint, I think there is nothing done right in the military. Same goes for SS and medicare. The postal service is a joke, because of their cost issues and cutbacks and a local office closing, I only get mail every other day if it doesn't get lost. In fact, I recently had to go 4 days with no gas and hot water because the wonderful USPS mailman lost my check. I found out a few of my neighbors have had the same issue. I received a piece of mail at work that had been postmarked by the sender 8 months before we actually received it.
Focusing on getting the unemployed jobs and making it easier for people to get insurance through employers would be my preference, as well as bringing down actual costs of healthcare, not just making everyone pay for it. My mother complains that she doesn't have health insurance but she left a job where she DID have it to become self employed, KNOWING that is would be hard to get that taken care of it. Now she want's it at taxpayer expense.
The Patriot Act was opening a door, followed by NDAA and now government forced healthcare. If someone doesn't want to pay for healthcare, how is right for the federal government to make them do it? When the government FORCES people to pay for or have anything that is not a right given under the constitution, let alone pay for others, that is a loss of liberty.
I know Adrian commented on the VA. I did too. I know a LOT of people who wouldn't have any health insurance at all if it weren't for them or their spouse being retired military. One guy in particular wasn't feeling well at all and had a lot of stomach pain. He didn't want to go to the doctor. His wife made him. He was retired military so he has healthcare otherwise he couldn't have afforded to go and would have refused. It turned out to be his appendix. He was in the hospital for 2 weeks. Having insurance through the military (he was retired military and his civilian job didn't offer healthcare) literally saved his life. Another friend of mine had cervical cancer. She couldn't work. Her husband was also unemployed. Fortunately he was retired military so they had insurance. Otherwise she'd be dead - just like a friend of hers who had breast cancer, n insurance, and couldn't get treatment much like the woman in the OP.
You keep asking how is it right to have to buy healthcare. I don't get it. How is that any different than having to pay taxes or buy auto insurance? You seem to think you don't pay for other people's healthcare now. You are mistaken. I don't mean just medicaid/medicare. I mean $200 bandages in the hospital. You aren't losing any liberties. What liberties do you think you would lose, especially since you already have employer covered healthcare? You say you want to reduce the costs of healthcare. You do realize that UHC would do that right? It's been proven time and again. Of course, some people think the Earth is 6000 years old and Iraq was behind 9/11 so I suppose that proof doesn't always equal understanding.
You say you are a single mom making under $30,000. Does that mean that I and others lost our liberty when we were forced to pay you more in a tax refund than you had taken out last year?0 -
This topic makes me, once again, glad to be Canadian. I have two close relatives that have had cancer. No (direct) cost for chemo, radiation, doctors, surgery (one was rather major) or hospital stays. Oh, or home care nurses.
However, I do acknowledge that our system is far from perfect as well. There are holes, apparently male breast cancer is not covered (WTF?!) but so far, the majority of the people I know for the majority of health concerns have not have to pay much if any. (Not including eyes and glasses or dentists, but doctors and such)0 -
Saw these on Facebook. Too appropriate not to share.
The government can strip-search you at will, imprison you without charges, invade other countries in violation of international law, mandate you undergo a transvaginal probe, execute or even assassinate you... But make you buy health insurance? That's going too far.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=name&id=1509676596#!/photo.php?fbid=395335730477411&set=a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866&type=1&theater
I can't seem to post just the cartoon itself for some reason. meh.0 -
Saw these on Facebook. Too appropriate not to share.
The government can strip-search you at will, imprison you without charges, invade other countries in violation of international law, mandate you undergo a transvaginal probe, execute or even assassinate you... But make you buy health insurance? That's going too far.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=name&id=1509676596#!/photo.php?fbid=395335730477411&set=a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866&type=1&theater
I can't seem to post just the cartoon itself for some reason. meh.
Like!0 -
Heh! Here is the picture so folks don't have to cut/paste:
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The state of US healthcare, and the virulent opposition to universal, state-funded healthcare, baffles me, and most of the rest of the western world. No, our systems are not perfect, but at least the health of every individual is safeguarded by access to competent medical care, regardless of ability to pay. In the UK, National Insurance (paid by all earners at a variable rate, though on average for the self-employed(me) about £2-3/week, which seems like a pretty good insurance premium, and not too much 'charity' to contribute for the care of those who do not or cannot earn, to me!) and tax revenues cover almost all costs within the NHS structure. A small payment is required for prescriptions (£7-8, and free for birth control and under some circumstances), dentistry (around £20 for a check-up, and a little more for fillings etc, but still a fraction of the total cost) and vision checks (also around £20). Drug companies are held to reasonable prices by the knowledge that unless the drug is revolutionary and has no feasible alternative, the country simply won't purchase it for use - in a large market, a strong incentive to keep prices in check.
Private health insurance is available, but uptake is low, as for the majority, it simply isn't necessary. I have an ear infection right now; the cost to me of a GP visit and prescription? £7.85, plus my NI premiums for the year, and a proportion of my income tax, which I would have to pay anyway. If I visit the doctor more than once a year, I'm getting pretty good value for my contribution!
I actually am in favour of NHS reform, if it delivers more medics on the floor, and less bureacracy, but even as is, it's a pretty good model, as are those employed by France, Germany, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Canada et al.0 -
When I read some of the comments opposing the ACA, this poem by Thomas Brown comes to mind:
I do not like thee, Doctor Fell,
The reason why, I cannot tell;
But this I know, and know full well,
I do not like thee, Doctor Fell.0 -
How is that "opening a door to letting the government force other things"? I've never heard a real answer to that. We have to have car insurance. Is that opening a door? We have to pay income and sales and property tax. Is that "opening a door"? If not then how is this really any different?
I also disagree that any program run by the government ends in failure. Or is our military a failure? Are our police and fire services failures? When you go to your kitchen do you get clean water? Can you breathe without a mask? Have we been invaded by other countries? Did you get mail today? Do you know any elderly person who only has insurance because of medicare? Yes, some things could be run more efficiently. But if you think private insurance jacking up co-pays and premiums so the CEO can buy a gold toilet for his yacht and hospitals charging $200 for a bandage to make up for people with no insurance using the ER like a clinic is better then I'm just dumbfounded.
You do know that if you have an employer provided plan you could still keep it under UHC right? I know the talking heads have tried to mislead people on that one. Right up there with "death panels" :rolleyes:
I also don't think you are quoting Franklin right. No one gives up any liberty for safety under UHC. Unless by "liberty" you mean the right to not have health insurance and force everyone else to pay for any medical disaster you might have." I'd rank that right up there with saying that paying my car insurance is giving up liberty. He wasn't referring to petty stuff like that but more like things like the Patriot Act. However, since you like Franklin quotes, how about this one: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power."
^^^ This for the most part.0 -
Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."0 -
edited - I shouldn't post more about this since I'm a moody commie (summon McCarthy, quick!) :blushing:0
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Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.0 -
Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.
That is a fair point to make, but you should edit it to say she gets breaks on Federal taxes. She still pays state tax, sales tax on every time she buys anthing including food. She pays at the BMV, she probably has to pay for whatever liscense on what ever job she has. They've made it too where you have to have a diploma to cut hair. She couldn't even raise and eat her own livestock and garden without paying for the permits that allow her to do it. And even if her county or state didn't have those rules, she couldn't cut out her gas or electric bill and cook the stuff outside in a bbq pit with out getting an open flame permit. She probably has to pay in to Social Security, which is fine with me, but I highly doubt it will be there when it's time to collect.0 -
EVERYONE pays all of those things. I'm simply pointing out the hypocricy of saying that no one should be forced to financially help someone else, no matter how badly they need it, when she herself is taking money that was forced from someone else.Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.
That is a fair point to make, but you should edit it to say she gets breaks on Federal taxes. She still pays state tax, sales tax on every time she buys anthing including food. She pays at the BMV, she probably has to pay for whatever liscense on what ever job she has. They've made it too where you have to have a diploma to cut hair. She couldn't even raise and eat her own livestock and garden without paying for the permits that allow her to do it. And even if her county or state didn't have those rules, she couldn't cut out her gas or electric bill and cook the stuff outside in a bbq pit with out getting an open flame permit. She probably has to pay in to Social Security, which is fine with me, but I highly doubt it will be there when it's time to collect.
I don't know what state she lives in but she probably doesn't actually pay state taxes either and may well get back extra there too.0 -
Listen, I agree with most of what you are saying, but no one in this country pays NO taxes. That is all I am saying.0
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Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.
That is a fair point to make, but you should edit it to say she gets breaks on Federal taxes. She still pays state tax, sales tax on every time she buys anthing including food. She pays at the BMV, she probably has to pay for whatever liscense on what ever job she has. They've made it too where you have to have a diploma to cut hair. She couldn't even raise and eat her own livestock and garden without paying for the permits that allow her to do it. And even if her county or state didn't have those rules, she couldn't cut out her gas or electric bill and cook the stuff outside in a bbq pit with out getting an open flame permit. She probably has to pay in to Social Security, which is fine with me, but I highly doubt it will be there when it's time to collect.
This is also true when people try to use the "47% of the population pays no taxes" statement to justify whatever give-more-to-the-rich tax scheme they are proposing. It even holds true to some extent for so-called "illegal aliens".
The global idea,however, is that, in a complex society as ours, there is no such thing as "I made it on my own with no help from the government (or anyone else)". We all receive support from society, government, etc. And everyone's success in due in some part to the contributions made by others--either now or in the past.
That and random chance.0 -
I have no problem whatsoever with having my tax dollars go towards helping someone who needs it. I'd much rather pay to get someone like her their extra money back than to give millionaires a tax break. I'd much rather pay to help a mother get prenatal care or a child get a 2 yr check up or even a middle class person get a flu shot than to subsidize oil companies raking in record profits every year and helping people like Romney pay a smaller percentage than many families who are struggling to make ends meet. (Again, talking income taxes here. I'm sure he pays a considerable amount more in sales tax than I do although since he's so adept at hiding his money in other countries perhaps not.)This is also true when people try to use the "47% of the population pays no taxes" statement to justify whatever give-more-to-the-rich tax scheme they are proposing. It even holds true to some extent for so-called "illegal aliens".
The global idea,however, is that, in a complex society as ours, there is no such thing as "I made it on my own with no help from the government (or anyone else)". We all receive support from society, government, etc. And everyone's success in due in some part to the contributions made by others--either now or in the past.
That and random chance.
My ONLY issue here is when someone says that it's not right for people to pay taxes to go towards things thy don't want which is just a silly argument as everyone does that or that it's not right to make someone else pay to improve your life when they, themselves, are in fact getting back everything they pay in in income tax and then getting extra on top of that.0 -
Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.
Not true, you questioned my tax return remember? I got less than $1500 for a tax return this year. I definitely paid more than that in taxes... Actually I was very close to having to PAY my state taxes, i got a few dollars from them as a return.0 -
Then you did them wrong. A single mom with 1 child who makes $30,000 and doesn't itemize (I don't know how many kids you have and you said you make less than that) not only doesn't pay anything at all in Federal income tax but she gets an additional refund of $452. I'm betting that your state returns are incorrect as well.Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.
Not true, you questioned my tax return remember? I got less than $1500 for a tax return this year. I definitely paid more than that in taxes... Actually I was very close to having to PAY my state taxes, i got a few dollars from them as a return.0 -
Then you did them wrong. A single mom with 1 child who makes $30,000 and doesn't itemize (I don't know how many kids you have and you said you make less than that) not only doesn't pay anything at all in Federal income tax but she gets an additional refund of $452. I'm betting that your state returns are incorrect as well.Here are two more Franklin quotes I enjoy, since the first didn't seem to apply. Once again, as a "poor" person, I strive to improve my life and situation but I am fully against taking from others to do so.
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
But as asingle mom making under $30,000 you ARE taking from others to improve your life. You not only pay no taxes, you get back extra money.
Not true, you questioned my tax return remember? I got less than $1500 for a tax return this year. I definitely paid more than that in taxes... Actually I was very close to having to PAY my state taxes, i got a few dollars from them as a return.
This^^ Unless you chose to donate money to the federal gov't you did something wrong based on what you've stated in this thread. I'd have a tax professional look at them...and if someone else did them then you need to go back.0 -
I was heartbroken reading that article Azdak. That would never happen in the UK or anywhere within the European Union.When the richest nation in the world cannot--no, I take that back--WILLFULLY REFUSES- to provide even basic care to all of its citizens, it is a moral outrage. The outrage is made worse in that the lack of care does not stem from inadequate resources, but merely to protect the outsized profits of insurance companies. Like so much else in the US today, those with money can buy whatever legislative support they need to rig the game in their favor, regardless of the hardship and pain it causes everyone else.
However, even in a system with guaranteed free access to medical treatment, we have to wait far too long for some treatments (although not acute emergency procedures, of course) and even if you have private medical insurance, if your case is chronic, they will refer you back to the NHS (national health service). Then, there is also the so-called post-code lottery whereby the local health trust decides that it cannot afford to fund a particular drug or treatment and so by going without your mortality is compromised.
It's amazing that in certain societies where civil liberties are somewhat lacking or non-existent, their healthcare is second to none!0
