"I'm Christian, Unless..."

thedreamhazer

A friend of mine just shared this article with me. It's over on danoah.com. The title of the original post is inflammatory, but the actual post is not. It's actually kind of beautiful, and the kind of thing that everyone should read as a reminder.

Here's the original post:
http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

But the one I really want to share with you is this follow-up story, written by the mother of a gay son. I won't give it away, I think it just needs to be read and felt.
http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-brave-response-to-im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

I'm interested in any (respectful, of course) thoughts and reactions.

treetop57

Wow! That second one really touched me. Things like that really convince me that the kids are okay!

I also ran across this today.

Tevlin: DeLaSalle kids have a few words with archdiocese at marriage talk

http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/146031865.html

When DeLaSalle senior Matt Bliss heard rumors that the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis planned to hold a mandatory school assembly to talk about marriage, and potentially gay marriage, he remembers thinking, "This is not going to end well."

He was right.

"The first three-quarters of the presentation were really good," said Bliss. "They talked about what is marriage and how marriage helps us as a society. Then it started going downhill when they started talking about single parents and adopted kids. They didn't directly say it, but they implied that kids who are adopted or live with single parents are less than kids with two parents of the opposite sex. They implied that a 'normal' family is the best family."

"When they finally got to gay marriage, [students] were really upset," said Bliss. "You could look around the room and feel the anger. My friend who is a lesbian started crying, and people were crying in the bathroom."

Bliss was one of several students who stood up to argue with the representatives from the archdiocese. One girl held up a sign that said, "I love my moms." . . .

It really is a different world than the cramped and lonely one where I grew up. Thank goodness!

BondBomb

I myself am not gay. I am a supporter of equality. I don't even really have the words to express my lack of understanding when it comes to other people. People who claim to be christians especially. The whole idea of christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Jesus loved all right? And to hate anyone for any reason is so heartbreaking to me.
My family (with the exception of me of course) is pretty hardcore Catholic. But they draw the line at hate. My mom thinks the church is outright wrong with their stance on gay marriage and has let many people know it. That lady is a force and makes me proud.

I made a facebook post about my son playing with a Barbie Corvette. I had some *kitten* I knew in highschool tell me I had better be careful or my son would 'become' gay. Apparetly you are either born gay or the other option is to own a Barbie Corvette.
I told him that is wouldn't matter to me. I would love him and support him no matter gay, straight, transgender. He is my baby. How could I ever stop loving and protecting him for any reason? I would die first.
And can I just say I was so proud of how many of my friends chimed in to 'like' or post support for their own children.
And of course I ended that day with one less facebook friend.

DietingMommy08

I myself am not gay. I am a supporter of equality. I don't even really have the words to express my lack of understanding when it comes to other people. People who claim to be christians especially. The whole idea of christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Jesus loved all right? And to hate anyone for any reason is so heartbreaking to me.
My family (with the exception of me of course) is pretty hardcore Catholic. But they draw the line at hate. My mom thinks the church is outright wrong with their stance on gay marriage and has let many people know it. That lady is a force and makes me proud.

I made a facebook post about my son playing with a Barbie Corvette. I had some *kitten* I knew in highschool tell me I had better be careful or my son would 'become' gay. Apparetly you are either born gay or the other option is to own a Barbie Corvette.
I told him that is wouldn't matter to me. I would love him and support him no matter gay, straight, transgender. He is my baby. How could I ever stop loving and protecting him for any reason? I would die first.
And can I just say I was so proud of how many of my friends chimed in to 'like' or post support for their own children.
And of course I ended that day with one less facebook friend.

Thats where the effed up view of society comes in and why toys r us had to deal with a fat lawsuit.

A child should be able to play with any toy whether that child is male or female, playing with barbies or tonka trucks.
Society has this warped view that if your son plays with barbies then hes gonna sumhow be "gay".

Toys are us was sued by a child for gender discrimination because he didnt agree with the fact that toys r us advertised thier toys with "Outdated Gender roles".

Here is an article on it: http://www.thelocal.se/22504/20091006/

sdrawkcabynot

This puts a big goofy smile on my face!

I posted "I'm Christian, Unless You're Gay..." on my facebook yesterday after reading it. It had me in tears.

I was very lucky to have a supportive family! But I know of a few people out there that their parents completely abandoned them. So majjjjjjjor thumbs up to DietingMommy and BondBomb... you are two rocking moms! And your both hot to boot (and that's coming from a queer - so it means even more! lol)

BondBomb

I myself am not gay. I am a supporter of equality. I don't even really have the words to express my lack of understanding when it comes to other people. People who claim to be christians especially. The whole idea of christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Jesus loved all right? And to hate anyone for any reason is so heartbreaking to me.
My family (with the exception of me of course) is pretty hardcore Catholic. But they draw the line at hate. My mom thinks the church is outright wrong with their stance on gay marriage and has let many people know it. That lady is a force and makes me proud.

I made a facebook post about my son playing with a Barbie Corvette. I had some *kitten* I knew in highschool tell me I had better be careful or my son would 'become' gay. Apparetly you are either born gay or the other option is to own a Barbie Corvette.
I told him that is wouldn't matter to me. I would love him and support him no matter gay, straight, transgender. He is my baby. How could I ever stop loving and protecting him for any reason? I would die first.
And can I just say I was so proud of how many of my friends chimed in to 'like' or post support for their own children.
And of course I ended that day with one less facebook friend.

Thats where the effed up view of society comes in and why toys r us had to deal with a fat lawsuit.

A child should be able to play with any toy whether that child is male or female, playing with barbies or tonka trucks.
Society has this warped view that if your son plays with barbies then hes gonna sumhow be "gay".

Toys are us was sued by a child for gender discrimination because he didnt agree with the fact that toys r us advertised thier toys with "Outdated Gender roles".

Here is an article on it: http://www.thelocal.se/22504/20091006/

While I am not for assigning traditional gender roles I think it is stupid to sue a company that creates toys based on those roles. You can opt out of buying from them. I like the idea of raising awareness but lawsuits are not the way to do this. Its up to parents to teach our children and let them make decision on the toys they like and enjoy. My son has a little kitchenette. Its adorable and he loves to imitate me cooking. Guess what? He is going to have to learn how to cook one day. And vaacum and wash dishes. I had cars, GJ joes and toy guns as a tot. (That might explain why I am a little 'off' but I liked what I like.)
My kid has my old barbies. Dora coloring books and Tonka trucks. He likes what he likes.

treetop57

That Toys-R-Us article is very interesting. They weren't sued per se. Rather some school kids did a multi-year study on Toys-R-Us advertising in Sweden and filed a complaint with "the Reklamombudsmannen (Ro), a self-regulatory agency which polices marketing and advertising communications in Sweden to ensure they are in line with guidelines set out by the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC)." That sounds to me like the advertising watchdog of a voluntary trade association, not a branch of the government.

It also sounds like it was a very educational project for the students and was about more than just boys being shown playing with "boys' toys" and girls with "girls' toys."

Specifically, the committee found that the catalogue feature boys “playing in action filled environments” while girls “are shown sitting or standing in passive poses”.

“Taken together, the catalogue portrays children’s games and choice of toys in a narrow-minded way, and this exclusion of boys and girls from different types of toys is, in itself, degrading to both genders,” Ro said in a statement.

The public reprimand has no accompanying sanctions for Toys"R"Us, as the Ro has no authority to formally punish the companies it finds at fault.

The story is from 2009. I wonder whether Toys-R-Us has changed anything, in Sweden or elsewhere.

maab_connor

wow. that legit just brought tears to my eyes. it was beautiful. and the original post was right, so many of us - sometimes even me - we look down on other ppl... why? why do we think that that will make us "better"? i've been actively trying to get rid of those feelings for a few months now, and let me tell you, THAT is what makes you feel better, but the kind of better that's in your soul.

i think that Dan articulated this beautifully. and i think that the proud mom is an awesome person for being able to set aside that indoctrinated, knee-jerk reaction and love her kid. b/c we all know ppl who can't.

thank you so much for sharing this!!

treetop57

I don't find anything on Swedish Toys-R-Us since 2009. I did find this:

http://www.thelocal.se/39988/20120330/


Swedish boys' new hero: pram-pushing Spiderman
Published: 30 Mar 12 10:50 CET

A new Swedish toy catalogue has reversed the traditional gender roles by showing Spiderman pushing a pram, and a young girl riding a toy racecar.

Kaj Wiberg is the CEO of the company behind the catalogue, "Leklust", and claims that it is time to move forward from old-fashioned gender restrictions.

"Gender roles are an outdated thing," he told Metro newspaper. . . .

thedreamhazer

i think that Dan articulated this beautifully. and i think that the proud mom is an awesome person for being able to set aside that indoctrinated, knee-jerk reaction and love her kid. b/c we all know ppl who can't.

So true. Working for my college's Gender and Sexuality Center, it was a part of the job that I got to hear people's coming out and not-coming-out stories. When somebody came out to a close-minded parent I almost never heard of the parent choosing to open their heart. So frequently they turned away from the child and either ignored them or turned hateful towards them. It was heartbreaking. It takes a lot of strength to look at the values you've held your whole life and decide that you need to change.

treetop57

My parents were not terribly accepting when I came out to them but eventually they came around. They never rejected me, but they definitely wished we had never talked about it. What changed things was my bringing my partner with me when I visited. How could they hate the fact that I was gay when it meant I got to spend my life with such a wonderful guy?

A year or so ago, a kid in their small rural town committed suicide after anti-gay bullying at the local middle school. A church friend of theirs decided the town needs a chapter of PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), and they were among the organizing members. I never would have predicted that my folks would become pro-LGBT+ activists. While in their 80s, no less!

BondBomb

My parents were not terribly accepting when I came out to them but eventually they came around. They never rejected me, but they definitely wished we had never talked about it. What changed things was my bringing my partner with me when I visited. How could they hate the fact that I was gay when it meant I got to spend my life with such a wonderful guy?

A year or so ago, a kid in their small rural town committed suicide after anti-gay bullying at the local middle school. A church friend of theirs decided the town needs a chapter of PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), and they were among the organizing members. I never would have predicted that my folks would become pro-LGBT+ activists. While in their 80s, no less!

That is awesome. Great parents

maab_connor

My parents were not terribly accepting when I came out to them but eventually they came around. They never rejected me, but they definitely wished we had never talked about it. What changed things was my bringing my partner with me when I visited. How could they hate the fact that I was gay when it meant I got to spend my life with such a wonderful guy?

A year or so ago, a kid in their small rural town committed suicide after anti-gay bullying at the local middle school. A church friend of theirs decided the town needs a chapter of PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), and they were among the organizing members. I never would have predicted that my folks would become pro-LGBT+ activists. While in their 80s, no less!

that is fantastic!

crocheted_ladybug

A good friend of mine posted this article to her Facebook, which is how I came across it. Both us us were raised in a quite stifling Christian community, and I was fairly rather bluntly rejected at 17 due to my "proclivities," but she had always remained a friend. She said that the article made her rethink her position on her opinions on the gay community, as well as other people she judges harshly.

I think the article has a lesson in it that is not just true for people of faith (regardless of which faith) , but something we desperately need withing the LGBT community. Some (not all) of us do something very similar, even to members of our own community: "I'm liberal and accepting, unless you're Trans." "I'm friends with everyone, unless you're republican." "I'm open-minded, unless you're religious."

It's just food for thought. Be who you say you are, live what you preach.

ElementalEscapee

Interesting articles, I'm glad that the mom changed her views on the subject; I'm so happy for the boy! I'm not even going to start ranting about how contradictory (and other things) the church is for opposing gays...*sigh* As for the Toys R Us lawsuit...LOL really? Just...really? I played with Hot Wheels as a kid, never touched barbies... When I see ads portraying the girls sitting down and the guys having all the fun/action, I always feel angry at the idea that girls have to be the weak, uninteresting, dependent ones, yet at the same time have to smirk because I know it's not like that in real life, at least for me. :huh:

canroadrunner

You might also be interested in this video about a Mormon LGBT group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0jXg-hKCI&feature=player_embedded

emgawne

i absolutely love that article.
i can only hope my mom will be so accepting when i tell her. she sure is set in her ways.

as for the gender roles thing, my 5 yr old nephew wore a black leotard and purple flowered leg warmers to ballet class about a year ago (his choice on outfit) and my sister posted a picture on her facebook and her husbands family got into a HUGE argument over how she was going to turn her son gay. some people can be so closed minded and i dont understand it.

arewethereyet

i think that Dan articulated this beautifully. and i think that the proud mom is an awesome person for being able to set aside that indoctrinated, knee-jerk reaction and love her kid. b/c we all know ppl who can't.

So true. Working for my college's Gender and Sexuality Center, it was a part of the job that I got to hear people's coming out and not-coming-out stories. When somebody came out to a close-minded parent I almost never heard of the parent choosing to open their heart. So frequently they turned away from the child and either ignored them or turned hateful towards them. It was heartbreaking. It takes a lot of strength to look at the values you've held your whole life and decide that you need to change.

Raises hand HIGH. I was, and still am a devout Christian. I was indoctrinated to believe gays were deviants that were going to hell. I was always accepting of my gay friends, and walked out on church services based on this............well HATE. It bothered me, but I did nothing about it.

Then my baby girl came out when she was 16. I was fully supportive of her from the get go, but I dealt with the internal worries and fears.

Every night I prayed that God would give me guidence on how to deal with it, and to please show me he loved her still. You see, this was my biggest fear, that He would not love her. It made me so sad.

One night I fell asleep with the TV on. I was awakened at 2 am by yelling. As I opened my eyes I saw a red faced, sweating (very popular) preacher on TV. THen I noticed the audience was shaking their fists, some standing and jumping up and down, others spitting nasty words.

When I woke up enough to realize I was not watching a fight match, but a church service.........Holy God save us.

I heard his voice say "Jeannie, that is not who I am. I love you and DD today as always. Love is who I am"

Now folks I will tell you that 1. I was scared I was hearing voices :laugh: and 2. I hit my knees in thanks.

I never looked back.

It was awesome to have all my DD friends at my home that summer. May they always feel the love and acceptence I tried to show them. :flowerforyou:

arewethereyet

i absolutely love that article.
i can only hope my mom will be so accepting when i tell her. she sure is set in her ways.

as for the gender roles thing, my 5 yr old nephew wore a black leotard and purple flowered leg warmers to ballet class about a year ago (his choice on outfit) and my sister posted a picture on her facebook and her husbands family got into a HUGE argument over how she was going to turn her son gay. some people can be so closed minded and i dont understand it.

Tell her my daughter wore pink clothes and played with barbies, and my son had a cabbage patch kid (Hermie, who he called Herpes) and used my mom's old purse for crayons.

She is gay, he is straight.

You can't turn me gay, and ya ain't turning that boy gay if you put a feather boa on his neck!!!

thedreamhazer

i think that Dan articulated this beautifully. and i think that the proud mom is an awesome person for being able to set aside that indoctrinated, knee-jerk reaction and love her kid. b/c we all know ppl who can't.

So true. Working for my college's Gender and Sexuality Center, it was a part of the job that I got to hear people's coming out and not-coming-out stories. When somebody came out to a close-minded parent I almost never heard of the parent choosing to open their heart. So frequently they turned away from the child and either ignored them or turned hateful towards them. It was heartbreaking. It takes a lot of strength to look at the values you've held your whole life and decide that you need to change.

Raises hand HIGH. I was, and still am a devout Christian. I was indoctrinated to believe gays were deviants that were going to hell. I was always accepting of my gay friends, and walked out on church services based on this............well HATE. It bothered me, but I did nothing about it.

Then my baby girl came out when she was 16. I was fully supportive of her from the get go, but I dealt with the internal worries and fears.

Every night I prayed that God would give me guidence on how to deal with it, and to please show me he loved her still. You see, this was my biggest fear, that He would not love her. It made me so sad.

One night I fell asleep with the TV on. I was awakened at 2 am by yelling. As I opened my eyes I saw a red faced, sweating (very popular) preacher on TV. THen I noticed the audience was shaking their fists, some standing and jumping up and down, others spitting nasty words.

When I woke up enough to realize I was not watching a fight match, but a church service.........Holy God save us.

I heard his voice say "Jeannie, that is not who I am. I love you and DD today as always. Love is who I am"

Now folks I will tell you that 1. I was scared I was hearing voices :laugh: and 2. I hit my knees in thanks.

I never looked back.

It was awesome to have all my DD friends at my home that summer. May they always feel the love and acceptence I tried to show them. :flowerforyou:

In my experience, you are a rarity, and that's a sad thing. I think your story is wonderful!

thekarens

I'm one of the minority who is both gay and Christian. After coming out 13 years ago I've come to discover the problem isn't with Christianity.....it's with Christians. God and the Bible don't have a problem with the LGBT community, the people do. Hasn't stopped me from being gay or a Christian.

Thanks for sharing!

emgawne

I'm one of the minority who is both gay and Christian. After coming out 13 years ago I've come to discover the problem isn't with Christianity.....it's with Christians. God and the Bible don't have a problem with the LGBT community, the people do. Hasn't stopped me from being gay or a Christian.

Thanks for sharing!

I am too! I go to a church that is open and affirming that I wish I could invite you all to and show you that the problem is not with Christianity, it is with the people in the church.

bluehonu20

I read those articles (both the original, and the mother's letter) a couple days ago. The letter from the mom had me in tears. I can't even imagine how much that boy must have hurt, thinking that his mother didn't love him. And she is a very strong woman for being able to set aside a way of thinking she had known all her life, and embrace her son for who he is. Love is a powerful thing, and it saddens me to know that not every parent would do the same.

I'm straight, but I know if I were not, and came out to my parents, that I would be loved, accepted, and fully supported by them. After all, they were the ones who taught me to accept everyone equally.

tldust

An amazing blog! Really put things into perspective how much hate fuels the world. And it's not just one group of people. It's all of us.

nitepagan

I read the article about the boy. The christian churches have caused all this hatred with their evil teachings. God is Love, however you believe him/her to be. Jesus taught "Love thy neighbor as thyself." There was no "Only if" clause. People need to break away from this hateful thinking. I help Equality Maine, a group trying to get Marriage for all approved in Maine. We are winning one person at a time. We are making progress. Same sex marriage is on the ballot for November. We believe we will be successful this time around. This is how you break the hatred, one person at a time.

treetop57

Good luck in November Nightpagan. It will be a great milestone for the whole country when marriage equality passes in Maine, the first state to do it at the ballot box!

treetop57

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/04/06/459984/support-for-marriage-equality-in-maine-climbs-to-58-percent/

SUPPORT FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY IN MAINE CLIMBS TO 58 PERCENT | A new poll shows that 58 percent of Maine voters now support marriage equality with only about 40 percent opposed, suggesting great promise for November’s referendum to legalize it. Though still within the margin of error, this is greater approval than the measure had just last month at 54 percent. Maine’s ballot initiative represents the first time U.S. voters will ever have the opportunity to vote YES for the freedom to marry, and there are still seven months before the election to raise enthusiasm even higher.

Woohoo!

FitLink

Wow! That second one really touched me. Things like that really convince me that the kids are okay!

I also ran across this today.

Tevlin: DeLaSalle kids have a few words with archdiocese at marriage talk

http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/146031865.html

When DeLaSalle senior Matt Bliss heard rumors that the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis planned to hold a mandatory school assembly to talk about marriage, and potentially gay marriage, he remembers thinking, "This is not going to end well."

He was right.

"The first three-quarters of the presentation were really good," said Bliss. "They talked about what is marriage and how marriage helps us as a society. Then it started going downhill when they started talking about single parents and adopted kids. They didn't directly say it, but they implied that kids who are adopted or live with single parents are less than kids with two parents of the opposite sex. They implied that a 'normal' family is the best family."

"When they finally got to gay marriage, [students] were really upset," said Bliss. "You could look around the room and feel the anger. My friend who is a lesbian started crying, and people were crying in the bathroom."

Bliss was one of several students who stood up to argue with the representatives from the archdiocese. One girl held up a sign that said, "I love my moms." . . .

It really is a different world than the cramped and lonely one where I grew up. Thank goodness!

Wow. And on a non-marriage-equality note: ADOPTED KIDS?!? Are there actually xians who think adopted kids would be better off in orphanages, or with unprepared parents, or even with parents that don't want them?!? 'Cause that's what it sounds like.

FitLink

I myself am not gay. I am a supporter of equality. I don't even really have the words to express my lack of understanding when it comes to other people. People who claim to be christians especially. The whole idea of christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Jesus loved all right? And to hate anyone for any reason is so heartbreaking to me.
My family (with the exception of me of course) is pretty hardcore Catholic. But they draw the line at hate. My mom thinks the church is outright wrong with their stance on gay marriage and has let many people know it. That lady is a force and makes me proud.

I made a facebook post about my son playing with a Barbie Corvette. I had some *kitten* I knew in highschool tell me I had better be careful or my son would 'become' gay. Apparetly you are either born gay or the other option is to own a Barbie Corvette.
I told him that is wouldn't matter to me. I would love him and support him no matter gay, straight, transgender. He is my baby. How could I ever stop loving and protecting him for any reason? I would die first.
And can I just say I was so proud of how many of my friends chimed in to 'like' or post support for their own children.
And of course I ended that day with one less facebook friend.

You may have lost a "Facebook" friend, but the number of actual friends you have remained the same. Just sayin'.

A close friend of mine has two boys, aged 4 and 1. They have the pink, ride-on Barbie Jeep. They ADORE it!

maab_connor

I'm one of the minority who is both gay and Christian. After coming out 13 years ago I've come to discover the problem isn't with Christianity.....it's with Christians. God and the Bible don't have a problem with the LGBT community, the people do. Hasn't stopped me from being gay or a Christian.

Thanks for sharing!

"I have no problem with your Christ. I like your Christ. I wish your Christians were more like him." - Ghandi

that's one of my favorite quotes. b/c it's how i remind myslef that not ALL xians are like that. not ALL of them hate. and that those who do, have it wrong.

FitLink

I myself am not gay. I am a supporter of equality. I don't even really have the words to express my lack of understanding when it comes to other people. People who claim to be christians especially. The whole idea of christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Jesus loved all right? And to hate anyone for any reason is so heartbreaking to me.
My family (with the exception of me of course) is pretty hardcore Catholic. But they draw the line at hate. My mom thinks the church is outright wrong with their stance on gay marriage and has let many people know it. That lady is a force and makes me proud.

I made a facebook post about my son playing with a Barbie Corvette. I had some *kitten* I knew in highschool tell me I had better be careful or my son would 'become' gay. Apparetly you are either born gay or the other option is to own a Barbie Corvette.
I told him that is wouldn't matter to me. I would love him and support him no matter gay, straight, transgender. He is my baby. How could I ever stop loving and protecting him for any reason? I would die first.
And can I just say I was so proud of how many of my friends chimed in to 'like' or post support for their own children.
And of course I ended that day with one less facebook friend.

Thats where the effed up view of society comes in and why toys r us had to deal with a fat lawsuit.

A child should be able to play with any toy whether that child is male or female, playing with barbies or tonka trucks.
Society has this warped view that if your son plays with barbies then hes gonna sumhow be "gay".

Toys are us was sued by a child for gender discrimination because he didnt agree with the fact that toys r us advertised thier toys with "Outdated Gender roles".

Here is an article on it: http://www.thelocal.se/22504/20091006/

IN SWEDEN! And it wasn't a child but a sixth grade class... And they didn't sue, they reported them to an advisory agency that only has the power to make recommendations... thus it pretty much isn't anything like "Toys are us [sic] was sued by a child for gender discrimination because he didnt [sic] agree with the fact that toys r us advertised thier [sic] toys with 'Outdated Gender roles'."

I don't disagree that some people, the majority maybe, have some pretty questionable views on gender identity. But getting the facts mixed up doesn't help the cause. All the information I related comes from your link, and your link doesn't say ToysRUs was "sued" by a "child" for "gender discrimination." It says a sixth grade class reported a specific ToysRUs catalog to an advisory board for perceived outdated gender roles. That is a HUGE difference.