And Obama Drops the Bomb!
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"Do the kids of illegals have "a great life" or is their whining always about "having a better life"? My kids would have a better life if they lived in the Spelling Mansion."
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Another term for illegal immigrants is migrants. Can you visualize that? Individuals or families who live in shacks at best, with no indoor plumbing, and move around every few months. Their idea of the American Dream is understandably much less ambitious than your kids whining for a better life. Migrants want a simple house with simple necessities like a fridge, oven, and working toilet and sinks. American kids and the parents who push them want the Excessive and Expansive Spelling Mansion.
The Spelling Mansion types are probably politically conservative. However, American liberals don't get off the hook either, as T.C. Boyle provocatively put it in "The Tortilla Curtain." For American liberals who - we all know, ecocycle, eat mostly vegan, save the animals and hug trees - also prefer to buy their mansions built green with the latest technology. They shop and eat in organic ways and they are too, en masse, more terrified of the illegal immigrant they pass on Main Street than the banker living next door to them! When, in fact, the illegal immigrant is living more closely to the earth and wasting much less precious resources than they hypocritically are.
The true issue is not "us versus them" but us versus our greed and blindness.
-Debra0 -
I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that disagrees with you that one would do ANYTHING to provide a life for their children. That said... If you break the law and get caught don't start complaining about the injustices of the US immigration system.
Just because a person comes from a country with terrible living conditions does not entitle them and every other person living in the same squalor to immigration to the US. There is a process in place (whether you deem it fair or not) that everyone that wants to enter the US has to follow. If you chose to ignore the process and enter ILLEGALLY be prepared for the rare instance where you might get caught and have to pay for your crime.
But the children of those who entered illegally have done nothing wrong. They are Americans, for all intents and purposes. Because their parents operated outside the law (in the best interest of the children), why should the children suffer deportation? That's all this remedies. Innocent kids being given a chance. How anyone can begrudge that is beyond me. This doesn't give a legal path to citizenship for the adults who broke the law. It's for the children who never had a choice in the matter.
Granting all those poor victim children amnesty is fair? How is it fair to all those who followed the law? How is it fair to foreign exchange students who have come here legally that they have to pay out-of-state tuition while those who came illegally will be granted in-state rates (Colorado, I'm looking at YOU)?
Just because you want something doesn't mean you have earned it.
There are quite literally billions of people on this planet whose quality of life is absolutely horrifying. Does that mean that the US is obligated to bring them all in? We can't. We don't have the resources to feed and clothe and educate everyone. We have to put in place rules that govern who we can bring in.
The system we have is full of flaws and stupid rules. So let's work on changing the system, to be better, fairer, streamlined and useful.
We can't just collectively decide not to enforce our laws, yet leave them "on the books" because that invalidates the power of all of the other laws.0 -
This isn't about billions of children. This is about the relatively few who have been here their entire lives, have not committed any crimes, are in school and/or have joined the military. Yes, it is entirely fair. Much more so than shipping a child off to a country where they have no roots, no language skills, no life, no family, etc.0
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We can't just collectively decide not to enforce our laws, yet leave them "on the books" because that invalidates the power of all of the other laws.
I'm not asking that our laws be ignored; I'm asking that the true targets be the aim and take the punishment - not the poor illegal immigrant or his/her children.
Interestingly, you also seem to say that you believe that the U.S. is resource limited. We can't "take them all in". That belief presumes a lot of things, first off that "they" would all want to come in the first place. From what I've heard from most first generation immigrants is that they would prefer to stay in their own countries and America was a sad choice to have to make for them. Most people would prefer that their own countries provide the basic chance at a full and respectable life as Americans seem to have. (To support this view, for one, read Azar Nafisi's "Reading Lolita in Tehran".)
Second, the scope of political philosophies seem to divide into one of two areas - those who believe that resources are limited (glass half empty) and those who believe in unlimited resources (glass half full). The universe is full of, as Annie Dillard likes to extol, "extravegant abundance" in that nothing is wasted and there is more available to the living than ever imagined. As in the glass is half empty/full illustration, in reality most of essential existance is hidden and not seen. In reality the glass is full, half of water and the rest of oxygen.
-Debra0 -
The people we're speaking of didn't willingly break the law. They came with their parents. Why is it "unfair" to those who followed the law? I don't get that.Granting all those poor victim children amnesty is fair? How is it fair to all those who followed the law?
How does one "earn" the right to live somewhere?Just because you want something doesn't mean you have earned it.
But not all are trying to come to the US. The US should do what it can to help feed the poor around the world, though.There are quite literally billions of people on this planet whose quality of life is absolutely horrifying. Does that mean that the US is obligated to bring them all in? We can't. We don't have the resources to feed and clothe and educate everyone. We have to put in place rules that govern who we can bring in.0 -
How does one "earn" the right to live somewhere?
By following the laws. As far as I am concerned, when you break the law you lose rights..It goes that way for American citizens anyway. An American citizen get get in more trouble for 'tresspassing' in their hometown than an illegal who tresspasses into the country.But not all are trying to come to the US. The US should do what it can to help feed the poor around the world, though.
I MAJORLY disagree with this. I believe we should first take care of our own before others. We have out own problems, our own hungry/needy/sick that don't get taken care of, why should the US take care of citizens of other countries.
It amazes me that when we have distaters here, such as Katrina, we let our own suffer but if there is an earthquake or tsunami in another country, we are sending aid and money right away. :noway: It's like the flight attendants always say when taking off, "If your oxygen mask comes down, put yours on first BEFORE helping your children or neighbors." If you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of them.0 -
If you're a minor, you have to go wherever your family tells you to go. You don't have a choice. Well, I guess you do--your only other choice is to run away. Yeah, that's really safe.
It's beyond cruel and indecent to even WANT to evict a CHILD who has no say in where they go. The fact that they are on your "turf" means nothing--they went where they were, for all intents and purposes, forced to go.
So I guess these children did something SUPER crazy--they grew up. Gasp, shock, awe, I know! Freaking insane! Who would have ever thought they'd do something like that?! :noway:
Put yourself in those kids situations. I dare you. Then think through your stupid argument of "well they should blame their parents, waaaahhh!"0 -
The people we're speaking of didn't willingly break the law. They came with their parents. Why is it "unfair" to those who followed the law? I don't get that.
Because those who have been waiting in line patiently, paying the fees, doing the paperwork, just all got cut in front of. Rewarding law-breaking behavior encourages more of it. Do you think foreign exchange students should have to pay out-of-state tuition while Obama's 'dreamers' should get to pay the reduced amount? WHY?How does one "earn" the right to live somewhere?
In the US, you have paperwork to file, fees to pay, sometimes you need a sponsor, there is a process and going through the process lawfully is what "earns" your citizenship and the right to live here, in the eyes of the law.But not all are trying to come to the US. The US should do what it can to help feed the poor around the world, though.
Charitable acts should be left to the private sector, imo. If you'd like to contribute to a charity, that's very nice of you. Please do it with your own post-tax dollars. I'll do the same. The government should be paying for the basics for our citizens, like roads and clean water. We cannot save the world, and it is inappropriate to try, imho.0 -
This isn't about billions of children. This is about the relatively few who have been here their entire lives, have not committed any crimes, are in school and/or have joined the military. Yes, it is entirely fair. Much more so than shipping a child off to a country where they have no roots, no language skills, no life, no family, etc.
Thank you for bringing this back from hyperbole!0 -
I disagree with it. My family has a well recorded family history. Those who immigrated here did so legally. I'd like to add that when settlers came here, there was tons of unclaimed land and no immigration system so they were not "illegal" immigrants.
I haven't read the rest of the post, so maybe this has already been addressed but:
The "unclaimed land" you speak of was actually claimed. By the Native Americans who died due to the Plague (brought from Europe), other parasites/diseases brought from Europe, and that love of genocide, also brought by Europeans. I feel that needs to be said.If there parents had them BORN here, then they need to blame their parents, not the government, for breaking the law.
That's not what the law says at all. If they are BORN here, then they are U.S. citizens. That's how it works, that's already law. The change is that people who were brought here as children (under age 16), don't have to be deported. Consider this: you were born in Mexico. Your family smuggled into the U.S. when you were a year old. You never learned Spanish, you grew up here, this is your home. Now, at 26, you have a spouse, a job, and a family. Technically, you're illegal even though you've spent every *aware* moment of your life as an American. You're saying that those people need to be deported? They didn't break a law, their parents did. Why should they be punished for the actions of their parents? So you get deported, to a land where you know no one, where you don't speak the language, and where you are more of an alien than you were in the states. All your family and friends, your spouse and children, are now a country apart from you. How is that not super unbelievably cruel? This law fixes a very real issue for many Americans (yes, I call them Americans. If the U.S. is their home, then they are indeed American). This is a good law. A very good law.0 -
Kids smuggled in when they were toddlers, we can debate. By the letter of the law they're illegal. But kids born here, the "Anchor babies" the right loves to harp on,,, they're citizesns. No ifs-and-buts. That's been the law for close to 150 years. If you don't like it, change the Constitution.
AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.0 -
This is a good law. A very good law.
This ISN'T a law. This is action taken by the president that is in spite of the fact that the law he wanted to pass, didn't.
Also, it's sort of obvious to me that his proclamation was just election pandering, because we already weren't deporting anyone. We fail to enforce the actual laws that are in effect on this topic all the time. Even when those lawbreakers are smuggling drugs and guns into our country.
IMO, The only reason Obama made this declaration was to make sure that the Catholic Mexicans who may have been mad at him over his comments re:gay marriage will remember that they are one-issue voters (amnesty being their pet issue) and they will hopefully re-elect him.0 -
Nope:This is a good law. A very good law.
This ISN'T a law. This is action taken by the president that is in spite of the fact that the law he wanted to pass, didn't.
Also, it's sort of obvious to me that his proclamation was just election pandering, because we already weren't deporting anyone. We fail to enforce the actual laws that are in effect on this topic all the time. Even when those lawbreakers are smuggling drugs and guns into our country.
IMO, The only reason Obama made this declaration was to make sure that the Catholic Mexicans who may have been mad at him over his comments re:gay marriage will remember that they are one-issue voters (amnesty being their pet issue) and they will hopefully re-elect him.
""Nearly 400,000 individuals were removed from the country in fiscal year 2011, which ended September 30, according to the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. ICE Director John Morton trumpeted the news, calling it the result of "smart and effective immigration enforcement" that depends on "setting clear priorities for removal and executing on those priorities.""
Records. BO deports record numbers. He just makes sure they're criminals, not lettucs pickers.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-10-19/politics/politics_deportation-record_1_ice-director-john-morton-undocumented-immigrants-criminal-alien-program?_s=PM:POLITICS0 -
Nope:This is a good law. A very good law.
This ISN'T a law. This is action taken by the president that is in spite of the fact that the law he wanted to pass, didn't.
Also, it's sort of obvious to me that his proclamation was just election pandering, because we already weren't deporting anyone. We fail to enforce the actual laws that are in effect on this topic all the time. Even when those lawbreakers are smuggling drugs and guns into our country.
IMO, The only reason Obama made this declaration was to make sure that the Catholic Mexicans who may have been mad at him over his comments re:gay marriage will remember that they are one-issue voters (amnesty being their pet issue) and they will hopefully re-elect him.
""Nearly 400,000 individuals were removed from the country in fiscal year 2011, which ended September 30, according to the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. ICE Director John Morton trumpeted the news, calling it the result of "smart and effective immigration enforcement" that depends on "setting clear priorities for removal and executing on those priorities.""
Records. BO deports record numbers. He just makes sure they're criminals, not lettucs pickers.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-10-19/politics/politics_deportation-record_1_ice-director-john-morton-undocumented-immigrants-criminal-alien-program?_s=PM:POLITICS
Obama's biggest "crime" has been to bring reason, intelligence, and rational behavior back into government.0 -
Nice to see some reason enter the debate.I disagree with it. My family has a well recorded family history. Those who immigrated here did so legally. I'd like to add that when settlers came here, there was tons of unclaimed land and no immigration system so they were not "illegal" immigrants.
I haven't read the rest of the post, so maybe this has already been addressed but:
The "unclaimed land" you speak of was actually claimed. By the Native Americans who died due to the Plague (brought from Europe), other parasites/diseases brought from Europe, and that love of genocide, also brought by Europeans. I feel that needs to be said.If there parents had them BORN here, then they need to blame their parents, not the government, for breaking the law.
That's not what the law says at all. If they are BORN here, then they are U.S. citizens. That's how it works, that's already law. The change is that people who were brought here as children (under age 16), don't have to be deported. Consider this: you were born in Mexico. Your family smuggled into the U.S. when you were a year old. You never learned Spanish, you grew up here, this is your home. Now, at 26, you have a spouse, a job, and a family. Technically, you're illegal even though you've spent every *aware* moment of your life as an American. You're saying that those people need to be deported? They didn't break a law, their parents did. Why should they be punished for the actions of their parents? So you get deported, to a land where you know no one, where you don't speak the language, and where you are more of an alien than you were in the states. All your family and friends, your spouse and children, are now a country apart from you. How is that not super unbelievably cruel? This law fixes a very real issue for many Americans (yes, I call them Americans. If the U.S. is their home, then they are indeed American). This is a good law. A very good law.0 -
Nice to see some reason enter the debate.
Why thank you, my forever alone buddy, elmarko1230 -
I won't offer up my own thoughts on this issue just yet. I'm too torn on the issue at the moment for my thoughts to make a whole lot of sense.
However, I have a question for those of the "DO NOT LIKE THIS" mindset:
The children that were born here in the U.S. are U.S. citizens. That's how it works. You're born here, you're a citizen even if your mom and dad are not.
So... For those children, who are U.S. citizens, but their parents are not: What should happen to those children?
1) Should they be deported with their illegal parents, even though they are lawfully citizens of the U.S.?
2)Or should their parents be deported and the children risk psychological, emotional, and physical harm by being placed into a foster care system that is already too full, understaffed, and where the chances of an older, non-white child getting adopted are next nil?
3) Is there another option that I don't know about?0 -
I won't offer up my own thoughts on this issue just yet. I'm too torn on the issue at the moment for my thoughts to make a whole lot of sense.
However, I have a question for those of the "DO NOT LIKE THIS" mindset:
The children that were born here in the U.S. are U.S. citizens. That's how it works. You're born here, you're a citizen even if your mom and dad are not.
So... For those children, who are U.S. citizens, but their parents are not: What should happen to those children?
1) Should they be deported with their illegal parents, even though they are lawfully citizens of the U.S.?
2)Or should their parents be deported and the children risk psychological, emotional, and physical harm by being placed into a foster care system that is already too full, understaffed, and where the chances of an older, non-white child getting adopted are next nil?
3) Is there another option that I don't know about?
My deported uncle and his (not deported) wife chose to take their children with them. His wife was not deported, though she wasn't here legally. The children were both born here, and are citizens. I believe that the kids currently have dual citizenship and will be able to choose which country they want to live in as adults.
I'd probably do it the same way, if forced to choose, unless my home country was in political strife and the safety of the children would be a risk. Then I'd most likely attempt to find a friend or relative for the children to live with.0 -
I agree with legalizing those who don't have criminal records. We have a global economy, and a global military. When we say, "We can go into your countries and do what we will, but you can't come to ours simply to live and work," what are we really saying?
However, Obama has broken many campaign promises in regard to this issue and many people have been deported. I see this as a blatant attempt at vote getting and it's also too little, and for many, too late.0
