TDEE & BMR: What they are and what to do with them
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Hello all... I need help as well... I'm stuck and I no longer know exactly what to do and am getting close to simply giving up once again.
When I first started logging on MFP two months ago I was completely lost about all the logging, I was aiming at gross 1200 calories, but considering I was not measuring everything properly most probably had around 1400~ gross. With roughly 200-300 burnt through workouts 6 days a week. After I learned more about logging, TDEE, BMR and so on, I upped my calories some to about 1400, but with not logging accurately everything (eating out for lunch every work day - mainly chicken and salads, nothing fried or oily or greasy or fatty) I think my real gross is somewhere around 1600 most probably. Still, no results. Nooothing.
About me:
27, female, 171cm tall, 72kg (though today scale said 72.8 - up until 3 days ago I was 71.2
not around TOM, so no obvious reason to hold water back), desk job, working out around 30-40 minutes 6 days a week - Body Revolution program.
I've got the following results:
BMR: 1527
TDEE: 2099 (if considered light) or 2367 (if moderate exercise)
So with my 1400-1600 calories I should have been losing, correct?
Or could I be eating more than my TDEE? Or I've screwed up my organism completely?
I was stuck at 73.5 for a long time, then upped my gross calories to 1600 again with not accurately logging and after a week I dropped to 72 (3-ish weeks ago), then from the Eat, Train, Progress group who also practice the TDEE got the tip to have my calories to 1400 - did so, went up and down 71.2 - 72.2 - 72 - 71.8 - 71.5 - 71.9 - 72 - 72.8 as of today :[
I want to lose those final 10kgs that I've been struggling with the past few years...0 -
Hello all... I need help as well... I'm stuck and I no longer know exactly what to do and am getting close to simply giving up once again.
When I first started logging on MFP two months ago I was completely lost about all the logging, I was aiming at gross 1200 calories, but considering I was not measuring everything properly most probably had around 1400~ gross. With roughly 200-300 burnt through workouts 6 days a week. After I learned more about logging, TDEE, BMR and so on, I upped my calories some to about 1400, but with not logging accurately everything (eating out for lunch every work day - mainly chicken and salads, nothing fried or oily or greasy or fatty) I think my real gross is somewhere around 1600 most probably. Still, no results. Nooothing.
About me:
27, female, 171cm tall, 72kg (though today scale said 72.8 - up until 3 days ago I was 71.2 not around TOM, so no obvious reason to hold water back), desk job, working out around 30-40 minutes 6 days a week - Body Revolution program.
I've got the following results:
BMR: 1527
TDEE: 2099 (if considered light) or 2367 (if moderate exercise)
So with my 1400-1600 calories I should have been losing, correct?
Or could I be eating more than my TDEE? Or I've screwed up my organism completely?
I was stuck at 73.5 for a long time, then upped my gross calories to 1600 again with not accurately logging and after a week I dropped to 72 (3-ish weeks ago), then from the Eat, Train, Progress group who also practice the TDEE got the tip to have my calories to 1400 - did so, went up and down 71.2 - 72.2 - 72 - 71.8 - 71.5 - 71.9 - 72 - 72.8 as of today :[
I want to lose those final 10kgs that I've been struggling with the past few years...
Starting logging on MFP 2 months ago, but how long were you in a diet eating that much less than TDEE?
That's a lot, huh, for such a little to lose.
I mean, reasonable should be a 500 cal deficit, but you created likely a 1000 cal deficit. At first.
Obviously you are eating at maintenance now if it's been 3-4 weeks of no loss.
Forget daily, that's too much fluctuation.
And depending on exercise, daily is invalid weigh-in's too.
Morning after rest day eating normal sodium level, not sore from last workout.
I find it hard to believe those workouts are only burning 200-300 6 x weekly? That's not much at all, unless they are 15-20 min workouts.
Where are you getting that burn estimate from?
But 1200 gross is. 1400 not much better, evidenced by results.
And while sloppy logging may have you eating closer to 1600 - how do you know?
Could you indeed be overcoming the whole deficit by eating much more than you know?
When was your last diet break, outside of the fact you are in one right now?0 -
Starting logging on MFP 2 months ago, but how long were you in a diet eating that much less than TDEE?
That's a lot, huh, for such a little to lose.
I mean, reasonable should be a 500 cal deficit, but you created likely a 1000 cal deficit. At first.
Obviously you are eating at maintenance now if it's been 3-4 weeks of no loss.
Forget daily, that's too much fluctuation.
And depending on exercise, daily is invalid weigh-in's too.
Morning after rest day eating normal sodium level, not sore from last workout.
I find it hard to believe those workouts are only burning 200-300 6 x weekly? That's not much at all, unless they are 15-20 min workouts.
Where are you getting that burn estimate from?
But 1200 gross is. 1400 not much better, evidenced by results.
And while sloppy logging may have you eating closer to 1600 - how do you know?
Could you indeed be overcoming the whole deficit by eating much more than you know?
When was your last diet break, outside of the fact you are in one right now?
Was certainly eating above 1600-1800 calories before I started logging into MPF and counting calories (based on knowing what and how I used to eat before), maybe even close to 2000+. When I started logging MPF was when I started counting calories and eating at 1200 at first.
There has been loss in the past 3-4 weeks - from 73.5 down to 72 (71.2-72.5 playing up and down the past 10ish days), and two months ago I started at above 75 - close to 75.5kgs.
Each of the Body Revolution workouts is around 30minutes. And I do burn 250-300 in each according to my heart monitor - though it's a cheaper model - $40, so no idea how accurate it is.
The sloppy eating estimation comes from thinking what I ate and how much it was... but yeah, as even guessing is sloppy it might be badly the other way around - eating much less...
And diet break - before joining MFP and starting counting calories I was not on a diet for a long long time, not working out either. Maybe 6-7-8 months if not more, but my diet before that was certainly not low caloric - I was simply trying to eat in separate style (sorry not a native speaker so not sure if that's the accurate term - when you don't "mix" different types of food - no rice with meat, etc.).0 -
Was certainly eating above 1600-1800 calories before I started logging into MPF and counting calories (based on knowing what and how I used to eat before), maybe even close to 2000+. When I started logging MPF was when I started counting calories and eating at 1200 at first.
There has been loss in the past 3-4 weeks - from 73.5 down to 72 (71.2-72.5 playing up and down the past 10ish days), and two months ago I started at above 75 - close to 75.5kgs.
Each of the Body Revolution workouts is around 30minutes. And I do burn 250-300 in each according to my heart monitor - though it's a cheaper model - $40, so no idea how accurate it is.
The sloppy eating estimation comes from thinking what I ate and how much it was... but yeah, as even guessing is sloppy it might be badly the other way around - eating much less...
And diet break - before joining MFP and starting counting calories I was not on a diet for a long long time, not working out either. Maybe 6-7-8 months if not more, but my diet before that was certainly not low caloric - I was simply trying to eat in separate style (sorry not a native speaker so not sure if that's the accurate term - when you don't "mix" different types of food - no rice with meat, etc.).
You might want to read what the body can do when it gets too few calories constantly over a period of time. Because I think this is what you have done, and some of my references below will be based on this - so you need to understand what is possible.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251
So 3-4 weeks lost 1.5 kg, deficit was closer to 1000, so should have been losing a tad under 1 kg weekly. So your TDEE is less than you think. Or your eating is a whole lot more than you think.
Now, the question is - is it suppressed maintenance or TDEE, or is it potential TDEE, that by the math seems to be lower?
I'd suggest your calorie burn for exercise is better than that, cheaper HRM probably not using better formula's.
Start recording what the avg HR is during the session, so you can see if you are putting in as much effort, and to get better estimate of calorie burn. 10 cal/min is a 4mph walk with 20 lb backpack for me, so not that much effort at all.
And you are right on the food, it could indeed actually be less than logged, that does happen too.
Which means on paper, you should have even more weight loss.
So 2 directions you can go, I'm pretty sure the ETP advice will be to assume it's all bad food logging, and you are wiping out the deficit by doing that. In this case. And therefore the direction will be to eat less.
So, are you happy with the current eating level, could you maintain this with this same amount of exercise, or less with less, or more with more of course? Because your current eating level could end up being maintenance, with this level of exercise required.
Because to keep losing weight with one direction, you would cut calories, until you started losing.
If this lower than expected TDEE is the result of body suppressing your metabolism (and more), it may suppress even more before the deficit really kicks in and you can lose weight.
So can you successfully adhere to eating even less to lose the weight, and then eating what you currently eat to maintain it?
Or,
You see if you are currently eating at suppressed TDEE, and try to get body burning fully again, so then next time around you can take a reasonable deficit, and body is will to keep burning at full speed while you drop the fat.
How to test?
Eat 250 more daily for 2 weeks.
If your current eating level and exercise amount is your true potential TDEE right now - you will gain 0.45 kg slowly through that 2 weeks.
Reread that. That's all.
If current eating level is NOT potential TDEE, but rather a suppressed TDEE, you will gain more and faster water weight, probably in first week. Don't worry, that is water weight you were going to gain back anyway eventually.
That will prove what current eating level is.
If suppressed, then you start adding on 100 calories daily a week at a time until you reach estimated TDEE and unstress your body and mind.
If already at potential TDEE because you slowly gain 0.45 kg, then you assume the 1400-1600 is correct, and you cut calories from there.
Now, as part of that second one, if you log better and discover you actually eat say 1800, that is the start of the math. Don't improve logging accuracy and cut calories from 1500 at the same time. Improve accuracy during the 2 week test to see how much you were already truly eating, don't eat to 1750 say.
That last part is very important if you think there is still inaccuracy in your food logging. You can either improve it to see what calorie level you are truly at already, and then go from there, or keep it sloppy and go from there. But don't do both.0 -
*breathes out* I think I will have to read all of that at least 10 more times to get over the panic attack that is starting to settle in me x'D
But okay... I will trust you, I will do the 2 weeks test to figure out what is going on.
However, I do have to say that if I need to live for the rest of my life on those supposedly 1400-1600 calories that I'm currently taking in... mm... no... won't be happy about it. I can do it, but I do think it will only make my relationship to food much worse than it already is. And if I need to live on my previous 1200-1400 (gross) to lose weight - again, I can do it, but won't be happy...
I will try logging more accurately and add the 250 calories and see what will happen from there...
Freaking out that might be suppressed and I would end up gaining tons of weight just before my business trip and then my vacation, but... uh... better do it now, gain weight and get on the right track, than risk screwing up my metabolism even further right?
One more question - should I aim for any macros or just straight calorie counting?0 -
*breathes out* I think I will have to read all of that at least 10 more times to get over the panic attack that is starting to settle in me x'D
But okay... I will trust you, I will do the 2 weeks test to figure out what is going on.
However, I do have to say that if I need to live for the rest of my life on those supposedly 1400-1600 calories that I'm currently taking in... mm... no... won't be happy about it. I can do it, but I do think it will only make my relationship to food much worse than it already is. And if I need to live on my previous 1200-1400 (gross) to lose weight - again, I can do it, but won't be happy...
I will try logging more accurately and add the 250 calories and see what will happen from there...
Freaking out that might be suppressed and I would end up gaining tons of weight just before my business trip and then my vacation, but... uh... better do it now, gain weight and get on the right track, than risk screwing up my metabolism even further right?
One more question - should I aim for any macros or just straight calorie counting?
Always remember the math for any gain, or loss for that matter, to be re-assured what it is.
3500 excess calories is 1 lb of fat. And that is from true maintenance level.
So 2 weeks is really how long out of your time with no change, and your time with much less loss than it appeared you should have had. Many people have months on months of plateau, so 2 weeks is nothing to them at that point. So while it may seem 2 weeks is a lot right now, thing of the potential otherwise, don't reach months on months and then decide to do it.
Just want to confirm your good decision - no need to have additional stress about it.
Like the 2 week 250 test - even if your metabolism did not increase that whole 2 weeks - that would only be 1 lb of gain in fat.
And Water weight is rarely visible as it's an increase is glycogen stores in all your muscles.
So muscle will look bigger slightly. And since even an endurance trained athlete has around 2500 calories of carbs stored, and 500 calories with water is 1 lb, talking 5 lb max. You should only gain 2-3 lbs from that part, depending on how depleted you are.
Not stress and elevated cortisol can increase water weight upwards of 10 lbs. So stress about it and you can indeed cause it.
But keep the facts in mind of potential outside of cortisol effects, and you'll likely lose whatever water weight that is actually causing.
Which means if you lose eating 250 more, you did great job unstressing, and you get to keep increasing, until you find TDEE.
Yep, you could drop more stress water weight than gaining carb water weight. Strange but true.
Macros for super rough just to confirm enough protein is carb - prot - fat at 40 - 30 - 30.
Or reset your MFP Diet/Fitness profile to Maintain, confirm honest selection of non-exercise activity level, and when you save out, macro defaults will be given, as well as eating goal.
You just keep your single number in mind though that you are trying to reach.
But then go in to MFP Home - Goals - Customize - note the protein and fat grams given.
Decrease the carb % until you see the grams of protein is at minimum double what it was. Fat grams should be the same.
Or go for 1.8 grams per kg of body weight, so about 130 grams for you.0 -
Well, I guess I will have to keep in mind that in the end I'm doing it for my own good, so yeah.. I will learn to not stress about it.
Okay. Now, at maintenance with no exercise MFP gives me:
1870 net calories - which with my workouts of 200-300 would be at 1600ish, so just at the +250 calories we set.
Carbs were 234g 50%, protein 94g 20%, fat 62g 30%
Should I change these to:
Carbs 30% 140g; Protein 40% 187g ( which is double the original) , Fat 30% 62g
OR
To Carbs 40% 187g; Protein 30% 140 ( which is 1.8 per kg) , Fat 30% 62g0 -
I'd set to last set then, and if you care to eat more protein, no problem.
And actually, 1870 net with exercise would be 2070-2170 gross - got net the wrong direction, or I misunderstood.
But you'll be eating about 1650 daily no matter what as test.
That difference will just let you visually see how far under better maintenance estimate you are really eating, perhaps alleviate some concern.0 -
1650 net or gross?
To be honest my biggest challenge would be getting that much protein. I'm seriously not a meat person, but I'll try my best.
And I just wanted to really thank you for all the help, explanation and information!0 -
1650 net or gross?
To be honest my biggest challenge would be getting that much protein. I'm seriously not a meat person, but I'll try my best.
And I just wanted to really thank you for all the help, explanation and information!
You were doing 1400 gross I understood, so 1650 gross. Keep the test consistent with what you were doing.
What was the estimate for weight loss with recommendation to do 1400 gross, what was the suggested TDEE to give that number?
Eggs, dairy, cheese, whey shake, ect.0 -
Yep, I was doing 1400 gross.You were doing 1400 gross I understood, so 1650 gross. Keep the test consistent with what you were doing.
What was the estimate for weight loss with recommendation to do 1400 gross, what was the suggested TDEE to give that number?
Eggs, dairy, cheese, whey shake, ect.
I gave the same numbers in the ETP forum that I gave here: 27 years, 72kgs, 171cm, 6 workouts a week x 30minutes, BMR 1533, TDEE of over 2100, and the guys in the ETP forum suggest doing 1400 gross as I was not logging accurately (my guess, they were just wanting to make sure that in case that I was eating more than I was logging I'd not go too high).
And MFP was saying that with 1400 gross, after I'd log a workout of 200-250calories I'd be about 4kg less in 5 weeks. So 1.5ish pounds a week of loss >.>' Didn't happen.0 -
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Whew! I've read and read and read... still not sure what I should plug into MFP Goals.
I'm following the workout plan in The New Rules of Lifting SUPERCHARGED. I do those workouts 2 or 3x week. It's strength with cardio. I wear a Polar HRM and record the calorie burn in my Exercise tracking under cardio.
My confusion is: putting in my BMR and TDEE- Using Scooby's Calculator, my BMR is 1532 The TDEE part confuses me.
I'm sedentary nearly all day at my job.
I work out hard 2 or 3x a week, for about 60mins each time, and it's about 350-450 calories each time-according to my Polar HRM,
PLUS I usually take a Zumba class once a week which is usually about 550 calorie burn.
The question ultimately is..
If I use Scooby calculator and put in Activity: Desk Job with Little Exercise, and Goal: Lose fat -15%
Would the number given as the calculated of TDEE -15%-in my case is 1563, be a good number to have as a DAILY NET calorie goal on MFP
(My numbers according to Scooby calculator are BMR=1532, TDEE=1838, TDEE with 15% Reduction=1563)
Then, when I do work out and burn 400 calories, I'll log it into MFP and MFP will calculate that in and tell me ultimately I need to get to the net of 1563 calories?
OR do I use the Scooby calculator stating I'm Moderately active?
the numbers change significantly. BMR=1532, TDEE=2375, TDEE with 15% Reduction=2018
Gotta be honest, thinking of eating 2018 calories on a day where I don't do anything except my desk job, doesn't sound right.
Can you help me with this? Even though I'm the 2000th person to post this question? :ohwell:0 -
Whew! I've read and read and read... still not sure what I should plug into MFP Goals.
I'm following the workout plan in The New Rules of Lifting SUPERCHARGED. I do those workouts 2 or 3x week. It's strength with cardio. I wear a Polar HRM and record the calorie burn in my Exercise tracking under cardio.
My confusion is: putting in my BMR and TDEE- Using Scooby's Calculator, my BMR is 1532 The TDEE part confuses me.
I'm sedentary nearly all day at my job.
I work out hard 2 or 3x a week, for about 60mins each time, and it's about 350-450 calories each time-according to my Polar HRM,
PLUS I usually take a Zumba class once a week which is usually about 550 calorie burn.
The question ultimately is..
If I use Scooby calculator and put in Activity: Desk Job with Little Exercise, and Goal: Lose fat -15%
Would the number given as the calculated of TDEE -15%-in my case is 1563, be a good number to have as a DAILY NET calorie goal on MFP
(My numbers according to Scooby calculator are BMR=1532, TDEE=1838, TDEE with 15% Reduction=1563)
Then, when I do work out and burn 400 calories, I'll log it into MFP and MFP will calculate that in and tell me ultimately I need to get to the net of 1563 calories?
OR do I use the Scooby calculator stating I'm Moderately active?
the numbers change significantly. BMR=1532, TDEE=2375, TDEE with 15% Reduction=2018
Gotta be honest, thinking of eating 2018 calories on a day where I don't do anything except my desk job, doesn't sound right.
Can you help me with this? Even though I'm the 2000th person to post this question? :ohwell:
Which method do you want to use, a changing daily goal based on what you've really done, or a single daily goal and you better do what you planned to do?
You seem to like the MFP method, in which case just use MFP with reasonable deficit selected. Your sedentary TDEE with 15% deficit is about 250 calories.
So go back to MFP - Setup - Diet/Fitness profile.
Select Sedentary for your non-exercise activity since you are.
Select 1/2 lb weekly weight loss goal.
Set Fitness goals to whatever, if you've never noticed them on the Fitness Diary, skip them.
Save.
Now log your workouts based on HRM calorie burn, but take 15% off of them first.
Because if you had included exercise in the TDEE estimate, you would have removed 15% from them there too.
Now just eat to your daily goal, with the same reasonable deficit.
BMR 1532 x sedentary 1.25 = 1915 non-exercise maintenance. (this is more realistic than the 1919 study for sedentary at 1.2)
1915 - 250 deficit = 1665 eating goal on non-exercise days.
Exercise days with that burn would be 350-450 minus 15% = 298-468 to eat back.
So you would lose 1/2 lb weekly with no exercise, a tad more with exercise.
Total eaten for the week for 4 workouts as you gave figures for -
3 x rest days 1665 = 4995
2.5 days x (400x0.85 + 1665) = 5013
1 day 550x0.85 + 1665 = 2133
Total eaten for week = 12141 / 7 days = 1734 avg
Now, if you can't plan a changing daily eating goal like that and really eat back those calories, might be best to spread them out over the week and be able to plan and eat to a single number daily, some days lower than real TDEE, some days higher.
BMR 1532 x Moderately Active 1.55 = 2375
2375 - 15% = 2019 to eat on average daily. Average daily deficit (if rough TDEE is correct) 356, so tad more than 1/2 lb weekly.
You would not eat back exercise calories as long as it was part of the planned amount 3-4 hrs weekly.
Or go for that 1734 as daily goal which is based on your actual reported calorie burns, but still spread out over the week to make the daily goal the same.0 -
You've really helped me out a lot, thanks.
a further Question - regarding the 15% I'm supposed to subtract from the HRM calorie burn- am I taking 15% off because I want a 15% calorie reduction for weight loss? Or is 15% the amount to subtract because that’s just the amount I would’ve expended without doing anything and the other 85% is what I burned above just being alive?
For the record, I'm just subtracting the 15% as directed because I trust the process - I'm just curious to understand where the number came from so I can replicate it as my weight changes.0 -
You've really helped me out a lot, thanks.
a further Question - regarding the 15% I'm supposed to subtract from the HRM calorie burn- am I taking 15% off because I want a 15% calorie reduction for weight loss? Or is 15% the amount to subtract because that’s just the amount I would’ve expended without doing anything and the other 85% is what I burned above just being alive?
For the record, I'm just subtracting the 15% as directed because I trust the process - I'm just curious to understand where the number came from so I can replicate it as my weight changes.
If you had included exercise in the TDEE estimate, it would have received a 15% off deficit.
So it receives it on it's own because it's separate.
And actually, yes. You would normally subtract from the value first what was already accounted for.
Non-exercise TDEE / 1440 x minutes of exercise = amount you were expected to burn already.
MFP shows you your non-exercise TDEE at Home - Goals - calories burned from daily activities.
Subtract that from your reported calorie burn. May be 80-100 less per hr, which is a big deal for slow walk for 1 hr. Perhaps not so big a deal for intense 30 min.
Then take 15% off.0 -
Thanks, I appreciate your time spent explaining it, VERY much0
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Could somebody help me with calculations ? I am male , 25, 187cm, 130 kg with a desk job. My only form of exercise is 30 min walks every second day.
Mifflin BMR - 2349 (likely inflated unless carrying a lot of muscle mass)
TDEE with 90 min walking weekly - 3014 (1.28 activity factor)
Deficit 20% - 603 (only because you have a lot to lose, change to 15% when amount to lose is 18.14 kg)
TDEG - 2411 (daily with exercise or not. If you miss a walk, make it up)
Carbs - 40%, Prot - 30%, Fat - 30% (for now at this eating level, will change as you eat less.
This is using the spreadsheet on my profile page. If you have bodyfat estimate, or spreadsheet does, this can be gotten more accurate. Can also log progress in spreadsheet.
Thanks a bunch! Since that post I was eating 2500 calories for the past 2 weeks. I did not lose any weight so far but I certainly feel some changes. I rarely have appetite. I wold eat 3 bananas for breakfast and wold not feel hungry until late afternoon. Most of the time I would struggle to eat enough calories. Is it ok to lower them by 200-300 kcal every few days ?0 -
Could somebody help me with calculations ? I am male , 25, 187cm, 130 kg with a desk job. My only form of exercise is 30 min walks every second day.
Mifflin BMR - 2349 (likely inflated unless carrying a lot of muscle mass)
TDEE with 90 min walking weekly - 3014 (1.28 activity factor)
Deficit 20% - 603 (only because you have a lot to lose, change to 15% when amount to lose is 18.14 kg)
TDEG - 2411 (daily with exercise or not. If you miss a walk, make it up)
Carbs - 40%, Prot - 30%, Fat - 30% (for now at this eating level, will change as you eat less.
This is using the spreadsheet on my profile page. If you have bodyfat estimate, or spreadsheet does, this can be gotten more accurate. Can also log progress in spreadsheet.
Thanks a bunch! Since that post I was eating 2500 calories for the past 2 weeks. I did not lose any weight so far but I certainly feel some changes. I rarely have appetite. I wold eat 3 bananas for breakfast and wold not feel hungry until late afternoon. Most of the time I would struggle to eat enough calories. Is it ok to lower them by 200-300 kcal every few days ?
So you were eating much less than 2500, if so how much?
Then you came up to 2500, and no loss.
Your TDEE appears to be about 3000.
You should be seeing a loss right now - why would you lower calories more?
Were you losing weight on whatever amount less than 2500 you were eating, at the end of eating that much?0
