Are men less manly?
flimflamfloz
Posts: 1,980 Member
... than they used to be (20 years ago+).
- Are men less "manly" in your opinion - biologically? Mentally? Emotionally? (Sexually?)
- Why do you think this is?
- And is this acceptable and even desirable nowadays?
(I'll post my thoughts later, but don't want to influence people by replying to my own question right now)
- Are men less "manly" in your opinion - biologically? Mentally? Emotionally? (Sexually?)
- Why do you think this is?
- And is this acceptable and even desirable nowadays?
(I'll post my thoughts later, but don't want to influence people by replying to my own question right now)
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Replies
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So long as I am still allowed to stick my hands in my pants a la Al Bundy I am not sure I care.
(Oh and wear my work boots to all functions regardless of what they may be.)0 -
Less manly than what? Lol.0
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Difficult to answer as the word "manly" has different definitions and expectations regionally.
Also what may have been regarded as manly 50 years ago would be called abusive today so would say it is a good thing if some are less manly.
In other words manliness has no specific across the board definition,each guy and each lady has their own.0 -
Less manly than they were say 50 years ago??
Yes. I think so.0 -
OK, I edited the question... less manly than they used to be. Have men become less manly these days?0
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Yep. All you have to do is look at the generation of guys that are coming up now, they look more like fairy's than men0
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Yep, which is why I was asking why do people think this is... I was hoping some people would tell what they perceive is "manly", that is missing in today's "modern men".Difficult to answer as the word "manly" has different definitions and expectations regionally.
Also what may have been regarded as manly 50 years ago would be called abusive today so would say it is a good thing if some are less manly.
In other words manliness has no specific across the board definition,each guy and each lady has their own.
And a lot of people feel men are less manly nowadays, I wanted to know why they feel this way.0 -
Yep, which is why I was asking why do people think this is... I was hoping some people would tell what they perceive is "manly", that is missing in today's "modern men".Difficult to answer as the word "manly" has different definitions and expectations regionally.
Also what may have been regarded as manly 50 years ago would be called abusive today so would say it is a good thing if some are less manly.
In other words manliness has no specific across the board definition,each guy and each lady has their own.
And a lot of people feel men are less manly nowadays, I wanted to know why they feel this way.
There are "good" qualities ie being a provider,being emotionally resolute etc that could be described as manly and of course every woman wants those to continue and will be disappointed if they are not...it is expected or a guy doesn`t make the grade.
There are also other qualities that once defined a man such as if he was virtually Lord and Master of the household with the woman knowing her place.
Guessing there won`t be too many here that think this is a desirable situation.
In the case of this discussion I am pretty sure only the desired/expected qualities of manliness will be focused on rather the the entire scope of what has been considered manly over the time.0 -
Short answer, yes.
The rise of feminism had a lot to do with this. Gender roles were clearer pre 1965.
Western cultures have spent so much time focusing on women, that we have let men fall by the wayside.
There's less clarity in gender roles (seen on this board a lot).
The Betrayal of the American Man (http://www.amazon.com/Stiffed-The-Betrayal-American-Man/dp/0380720450) is a good book covering a lot of the topics at least from the perspective of the American male. Some of it is dated at this point, as it was released in 1999. But there's still plenty of relevance today, as a lot of the trends that existed in 1999 have become worse today.0 -
In all honesty, who cares? If the answer is yes, are you going to strive to be more like men in the '50s? If it's no, are you going to try to become more like the men from the '50s?0
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No real opinion one way or the other.
However, I suppose there's something ironic about a bunch of men debating if we're more or less manly within a "Single Peeps!" message board on a site that helps people monitor calories.
Could be just me, however...
--P0 -
Well, I definitely have my opinions on this. And, I have a few different views. Please don't yell at me. Or hell, yell at me, I don't care. lol
My dad is the epitome of the manly man. He was a fire fighter, designs and builds houses, played sports, can fix anything under the sun, etc. He is tall and strong and still holds open doors for us. He fits into that mans man gender roles perfectly. But he also cuddles my son, holds his hand, and kisses him on the mouth. I do compare men I date to my father. While I am pretty handy with tools, I would like a guy who can help me or fix things if I can't. I am not meeting a whole lot of guys that have these skills. It is like the conveniences of the world have wiped out the need to know these things. God forbid anyone change their own oil.
So here is my second point that men seem to be less manly. Worried that I am going to start a bit of a *kitten* storm. Anyway, I really enjoy movies, documentaries, series, etc. about WWII. I see those men who dealt with 4+ years of war, hunger, cold, sickness and so many other things come home and say, it was my duty. Now, living in the biggest military installation area of the world, I meet sailors, soldiers, marines, airmen, etc. who are such freaking whiners. Not all of them of course. No I have not served overseas and I don't understand what it is like. I am not disparaging the commitment and sacrifice our service members make. I support the military wholeheartedly.
That being sad, I am just so over some of the whining I hear when I meet guys. I am sorry you joined the military in a time of war and had to be sent overseas. I am sorry you were away from your family for 12 months. I don't know what it is about this generation but everything is so damned sensitive. I know females who get pregnant to avoid deployments, guys who have broken legs to get out of being sent overseas. It is kind of depressing.
So there we go. I am obviously in a mood. lol0 -
Well, I definitely have my opinions on this. And, I have a few different views. Please don't yell at me. Or hell, yell at me, I don't care. lol
My dad is the epitome of the manly man. He was a fire fighter, designs and builds houses, played sports, can fix anything under the sun, etc. He is tall and strong and still holds open doors for us. He fits into that mans man gender roles perfectly. But he also cuddles my son, holds his hand, and kisses him on the mouth. I do compare men I date to my father. While I am pretty handy with tools, I would like a guy who can help me or fix things if I can't. I am not meeting a whole lot of guys that have these skills. It is like the conveniences of the world have wiped out the need to know these things. God forbid anyone change their own oil.
So here is my second point that men seem to be less manly. Worried that I am going to start a bit of a *kitten* storm. Anyway, I really enjoy movies, documentaries, series, etc. about WWII. I see those men who dealt with 4+ years of war, hunger, cold, sickness and so many other things come home and say, it was my duty. Now, living in the biggest military installation area of the world, I meet sailors, soldiers, marines, airmen, etc. who are such freaking whiners. Not all of them of course. No I have not served overseas and I don't understand what it is like. I am not disparaging the commitment and sacrifice our service members make. I support the military wholeheartedly.
That being sad, I am just so over some of the whining I hear when I meet guys. I am sorry you joined the military in a time of war and had to be sent overseas. I am sorry you were away from your family for 12 months. I don't know what it is about this generation but everything is so damned sensitive. I know females who get pregnant to avoid deployments, guys who have broken legs to get out of being sent overseas. It is kind of depressing.
So there we go. I am obviously in a mood. lol
Being in the military, I agree with being tired of the whiners. I'm an instructor for tech school students, which is where new troops go to learn their "job" after basic training. They whine so much. I tell them pretty much to suck it up because this is the life they chose, and they're getting fed, housed, and PAID to learn.
However, I don't think whiney men are limited to the military. There are plenty of civilian men I see who whine about stupid **** and spend all day playing video games. They're out of shape and whine about how there's nothing to ever do or how much people suck. These men irritate me. Although there are women that live this lifestyle too, I see it more often in men who lack self confidence.
Confidence is a huge thing with being "manly." If you don't have confidence, it's a huge turn-off for pretty much all women. Lucky for us women, we can be shy or have little confidence and a lot of times men still want to date us.
I do agree with Meg, though. I like a man who knows how to fix stuff around the house, because I sure don't. Also, who's gonna open the pickle jar?0 -
That being sad, I am just so over some of the whining I hear when I meet guys. I am sorry you joined the military in a time of war and had to be sent overseas. I am sorry you were away from your family for 12 months. I don't know what it is about this generation but everything is so damned sensitive. I know females who get pregnant to avoid deployments, guys who have broken legs to get out of being sent overseas. It is kind of depressing.
1 - Congrats on your father. Sounds like a wonderful man. My dad is similar: intelligent, stoic, etc. 100% man.
2 - Every society idolizes previous generations. From Homer's Iliad to the Old Testament, heroes of the past are a foundation of practically all great myths.
3 - I'm not sure we should criticize people for whining about having to go die in Iraq or Afghanistan. You can hardly compare it in to WWII. Not sure what people in Iraq are dying for, but it's most certainly not our safety. But I dont want to get into a political discussion. Suffice to say WWII was very different from now, and losing that war would have had terrible consequences for the world. And I think most people understood it at the time, as well.
--P0 -
That being sad, I am just so over some of the whining I hear when I meet guys. I am sorry you joined the military in a time of war and had to be sent overseas. I am sorry you were away from your family for 12 months. I don't know what it is about this generation but everything is so damned sensitive. I know females who get pregnant to avoid deployments, guys who have broken legs to get out of being sent overseas. It is kind of depressing.
1 - Congrats on your father. Sounds like a wonderful man. My dad is similar: intelligent, stoic, etc. 100% man.
2 - Every society idolizes previous generations. From Homer's Iliad to the Old Testament, heroes of the past are a foundation of practically all great myths.
3 - I'm not sure we should criticize people for whining about having to go die in Iraq or Afghanistan. You can hardly compare it in to WWII. Not sure what people in Iraq are dying for, but it's most certainly not our safety. But I dont want to get into a political discussion. Suffice to say WWII was very different from now, and losing that war would have had terrible consequences for the world. And I think most people understood it at the time, as well.
--P
I never criticized anyone for having to go to Iraq or Afghanistan. I would never criticize them for complaining about going. I would probably complain too. However, it seems, around here at least, that people don't understand that when you join the military in a time of war, you are most likely going to go to war. I have met a ton of great men and women who served overseas and tell stories and are proud of what they did. But I have also met the other side of the spectrum.0 -
However, I don't think whiney men are limited to the military. There are plenty of civilian men I see who whine about stupid **** and spend all day playing video games. They're out of shape and whine about how there's nothing to ever do or how much people suck. These men irritate me. Although there are women that live this lifestyle too, I see it more often in men who lack self confidence.
Oh I agree completely. Whining is just unattractive on anyone. I can't stand it in my 3 year old and I definitely don't want a man who does that. Being a grown up sucks sometimes but we have to do it.0 -
Yes, men are absolutely less manly than they were.
My first reaction when I read the question was to think that I'm tired of the wishy-washy guys who can't commit or even make a basic decision to save their lives these days. That gets really old really fast! I blame the previous generation for becoming helicopter parents and smothering their sons.
Oh and the obvious example is that I'm sick of the extreme man-scaping. So long as you don't look like a bear, women like guys to have chest hair and be rugged and look like a man!
There's something to be said for what Meghan described her father as being and that IS the epitome of "modern" manly man in my opinion (keeping the conversation in the frame of most of our lifetimes). It would be nice if guys could be like that now, but I don't assume most are. But it would be refreshing to find one.0 -
No, I think men today are more manly. They cry and express their fears and anger and arent afraid of having a discussion about being manly!!
Men of yesteryear used to beat their wives and children and hide behind a pint of beer because they were emotionally suppressed! That's just cowardly!!
They could fix things because they weren't expected to go to school and get an education, they were expected to go out to their manual job and put food on the table.
Amen for progression! :flowerforyou:0 -
Oh and the obvious example is that I'm sick of the extreme man-scaping. So long as you don't look like a bear, women like guys to have chest hair and be rugged and look like a man!
I actually like the manscaping.
I don't think men are necessarily less manly, I just think that they've accepted the conveniences that this time in history affords us all, and while I agree about whiners, I think women are just as capable of being annoying in that respect.
And sure, it's nice to feel protected and cared for, and that a guy COULD take care of things for you, but in reality, I'm far too independent to let that happen all the time. I want an equal, not another dad.0 -
2 - Every society idolizes previous generations. From Homer's Iliad to the Old Testament, heroes of the past are a foundation of practically all great myths.
3 - I'm not sure we should criticize people for whining about having to go die in Iraq or Afghanistan. You can hardly compare it in to WWII. Not sure what people in Iraq are dying for, but it's most certainly not our safety. But I dont want to get into a political discussion. Suffice to say WWII was very different from now, and losing that war would have had terrible consequences for the world. And I think most people understood it at the time, as well.
--P
Completely agree, it is also not a fair comparison giving the sources. You can't compare present day first hand accounts with accounts of people remembering 60 years ago and/or movie depictions (particularly World War II movies, half of which are glorizations or pure propoganda). I don't know many people that go around complaining about stuff in their distant past, but I am willing to bet GI's werent walking through France in 1944 humming John Phillip Sousa anthems with a rosy outlook. Another previous generation, that of most of this groups fathers who went to Vietnam (or avoided it) didn't get quite the rosy treatment from the media and were often depicted as malcontent.0 -
2 - Every society idolizes previous generations. From Homer's Iliad to the Old Testament, heroes of the past are a foundation of practically all great myths.
3 - I'm not sure we should criticize people for whining about having to go die in Iraq or Afghanistan. You can hardly compare it in to WWII. Not sure what people in Iraq are dying for, but it's most certainly not our safety. But I dont want to get into a political discussion. Suffice to say WWII was very different from now, and losing that war would have had terrible consequences for the world. And I think most people understood it at the time, as well.
--P
Completely agree, it is also not a fair comparison giving the sources. You can't compare present day first hand accounts with accounts of people remembering 60 years ago and/or movie depictions (particularly World War II movies, half of which are glorizations or pure propoganda). I don't know many people that go around complaining about stuff in their distant past, but I am willing to bet GI's werent walking through France in 1944 humming John Phillip Sousa anthems with a rosy outlook. Another previous generation, that of most of this groups fathers who went to Vietnam (or avoided it) didn't get quite the rosy treatment from the media and were often depicted as malcontent.
Really?0 -
The breaking legs to get of service most likely happened in WWII as well. If you ever watch the Fog of War, one of McNamara's first jobs was to assess mechanical failures on bombing missions. The conclusion was that a large number of the mechanical failures that require pilots to return before reaching the target were actually minor and that the primary motivation was to avoid a highly dangerous and life-threatening encounter.0
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No, I think men today are more manly. They cry and express their fears and anger and arent afraid of having a discussion about being manly!!
Men of yesteryear used to beat their wives and children and hide behind a pint of beer because they were emotionally suppressed! That's just cowardly!!
They could fix things because they weren't expected to go to school and get an education, they were expected to go out to their manual job and put food on the table.
Amen for progression! :flowerforyou:
I think the points raised about emotional expression and education are very interesting and fairly accurate. However, the generalization that most men used to beat their wives, and fewer do today, is not valid.0 -
No, I think men today are more manly. They cry and express their fears and anger and arent afraid of having a discussion about being manly!!
Men of yesteryear used to beat their wives and children and hide behind a pint of beer because they were emotionally suppressed! That's just cowardly!!
They could fix things because they weren't expected to go to school and get an education, they were expected to go out to their manual job and put food on the table.
Amen for progression! :flowerforyou:
I think the points raised about emotional expression and education are very interesting and fairly accurate. However, the generalization that most men used to beat their wives, and fewer do today, is not valid.
Well, lets just say 100 years ago it was an acceptable norm, but today domestic violence is an imprison-able offence.
Sorry to generalise, that's not my intent. My point was just about emotional expression being more acceptable these days :flowerforyou:0 -
No, I think men today are more manly. They cry and express their fears and anger and arent afraid of having a discussion about being manly!!
Men of yesteryear used to beat their wives and children and hide behind a pint of beer because they were emotionally suppressed! That's just cowardly!!
They could fix things because they weren't expected to go to school and get an education, they were expected to go out to their manual job and put food on the table.
Amen for progression! :flowerforyou:
I think the points raised about emotional expression and education are very interesting and fairly accurate. However, the generalization that most men used to beat their wives, and fewer do today, is not valid.
Well, lets just say 100 years ago it was an acceptable norm, but today domestic violence is an imprison-able offence.
Sorry to generalise, that's not my intent. My point was just about emotional expression being more acceptable these days :flowerforyou:
Yes, that makes sense.0 -
2 - Every society idolizes previous generations. From Homer's Iliad to the Old Testament, heroes of the past are a foundation of practically all great myths.
3 - I'm not sure we should criticize people for whining about having to go die in Iraq or Afghanistan. You can hardly compare it in to WWII. Not sure what people in Iraq are dying for, but it's most certainly not our safety. But I dont want to get into a political discussion. Suffice to say WWII was very different from now, and losing that war would have had terrible consequences for the world. And I think most people understood it at the time, as well.
--P
Completely agree, it is also not a fair comparison giving the sources. You can't compare present day first hand accounts with accounts of people remembering 60 years ago and/or movie depictions (particularly World War II movies, half of which are glorizations or pure propoganda). I don't know many people that go around complaining about stuff in their distant past, but I am willing to bet GI's werent walking through France in 1944 humming John Phillip Sousa anthems with a rosy outlook. Another previous generation, that of most of this groups fathers who went to Vietnam (or avoided it) didn't get quite the rosy treatment from the media and were often depicted as malcontent.
Really?
Most people fight in wars because they feel it is their duty not because they want to actually fight or die for their country. Most people I know that fought in a war/conflict, Vietnam and after don't even want to discuss what they have gone through, my father and uncles being included. If you look at the majority of homeless men over the years you would find they fought in one war or another and couldn't find jobs when they came back.0 -
2 - Every society idolizes previous generations. From Homer's Iliad to the Old Testament, heroes of the past are a foundation of practically all great myths.
3 - I'm not sure we should criticize people for whining about having to go die in Iraq or Afghanistan. You can hardly compare it in to WWII. Not sure what people in Iraq are dying for, but it's most certainly not our safety. But I dont want to get into a political discussion. Suffice to say WWII was very different from now, and losing that war would have had terrible consequences for the world. And I think most people understood it at the time, as well.
--P
Completely agree, it is also not a fair comparison giving the sources. You can't compare present day first hand accounts with accounts of people remembering 60 years ago and/or movie depictions (particularly World War II movies, half of which are glorizations or pure propoganda). I don't know many people that go around complaining about stuff in their distant past, but I am willing to bet GI's werent walking through France in 1944 humming John Phillip Sousa anthems with a rosy outlook. Another previous generation, that of most of this groups fathers who went to Vietnam (or avoided it) didn't get quite the rosy treatment from the media and were often depicted as malcontent.
Really?
Most people fight in wars because they feel it is their duty not because they want to actually fight or die for their country. Most people I know that fought in a war/conflict, Vietnam and after don't even want to discuss what they have gone through, my father and uncles being included. If you look at the majority of homeless men over the years you would find they fought in one war or another and couldn't find jobs when they came back.
I am very aware of the homeless population in this country, considering that is what I do for a living. Actually, veterans do not make up the majority of homeless in the country.0 -
As far as the emotional expression... I certainly don't want a guy that cries on a regular basis. crying in general makes me really uncomfortable, I despise it when anyone cries including myself. Though I excuse it if it's something that's understandable (death of a loved one, injury). On the flip side I don't like yelling screaming fights either. I much more prefer emotionally controlled logical discussions about problems that reach resolutions.
I do also prefer the "manly" hands on type of guy. I have no problem getting dirty doing my own minor car maintenance or working in the yard. If he's afraid of messing up his manicure (or *gasp* developing a callous!) then it's just not going to work. One of my exes once sent me a text because he was sooooo excited that he got three nice button up shirts for only $50!! Tell me that if it has something to do with comic books or something that I care about.
I guess what it boils down to is that I'm pretty "manly" when it comes to comparing myself to other women... so I appreciate a man that's manlier than that. If I wanted a woman I would be a lesbian. I get frustrated with "girly" things if I'm surrounded by it too much. At best I tune it out.
Though can we really judge whether a populace as a whole was manly or not? We didn't live "back then" so it makes sense all we hear about now is the sensationalized stuff. It's like people assuming that all Americans are fat, crass and stupid because all we have to judge is the extremes you see on television (Biggest Loser, Jersey Shore, etc). I'm sure just like always people have and will be individuals - we just happen to live in a time when things like men getting their nails done isn't taboo anymore. There are women that appreciate that and women that don't. Are women less feminine now that we focus less on cleaning the house and more on fitness than the fifties?0 -
I typed this long @ss post about how men nowadays are every bit as manly as our forefather were.
But as I was typing on my beautiful pink hello kitty keyboard I broke a nail and said screw it!
You got the Hello Kitty keyboard? I am sooo jealous! I looked everywhere for it and it was always backordered! I had to settle for a My Little Pony keyboard and it's yellow. I am so sad.0
This discussion has been closed.