What's considered cheating
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I share this opinion. It's whatever your spouse would be uncomfortable with.
That is ridiculous.
Every man in the world is thinking about having crazy sex with other women *occasionally*, even when he's in a committed, stable relationship with a fantastic woman. However, if he was stupid enough to tell you the following:
"Wow, I was fantasizing about having kinky sex with our new neighbor. You know, the tall blonde woman from down the street? So it started out like this: I drop by with a fruit basket to welcome her to the neighborhood, and then..... little did I know she was a gymnast... and so finally.... etc., etc."
My guess is that you would be very uncomfortable with this. But (a), it's not cheating, and (b) we shouldn't be criminalizing thoughts.
You really need to exchange body fluids, or try very hard with a clear intent to exchange body fluids, before it's cheating.
--P0 -
I lived with two guys when I was in my 20s... just the three of us. Think Three's Company but I was Jack. LOL It was AWESOME and yes, the both had girlfriends and I had a boyfriend and everyone was cool with the situation.
Of course. Guys are much better roommates than girls, especially in groups. Guys are fairly laid back. They're not going to organize different sections of the refrigerator. Color code cabinets. Have a heart attack if a bill isn't split 100% correctly (knowing it will be made up eventually). Start to biyatch about your friends behind your back. Just in general be quite catty.
And contrary to conventional wisdom, lots of women are total slobs. Just look in the background of the "success pics" here at MFP. Half the time I'm thinking: "Congrats, girl, you lost a ton of weight. Now let's focus on that laundry!"
I'll admit this is a total generalization. :-)
--P0 -
I'm old fashioned. I believe body fluids must be exchanged before you are officially cheating.
--P
I have to say I'm closer to this line than the other. Any sort of intercourse, or kissing (obviously not friendly kisses on the cheek, but mouth-on-mouth!) is definitely cheating in my book. Flirting - not cheating. Explicit flirting/sexting/exchange of suggestive photographs - very rude to your partner, and definitely cause to be wondering why you're in a relationship with this person if they obviously are sexually interested in someone else, but not actually cheating. Basically, for me, there has to be physical, sexual contact to qualify as cheating.
I guess one could say that there is a mental/emotional line to be drawn as well, but that is such a grey area, and very dependent on individuals and their relationships. In general, I guess my rule there would be the "If you feel the need to hide it from your spouse/partner, you shouldn't be doing it" line. That said, I don't give anyone my phone (or email) password - I have bank details, medical information and all sorts of sensitive information on that thing. If someone wants to read my texts or emails, they can do me the courtesy of asking, and I will happily unlock the phone/email account.
Slightly stunned by the idea that people having friends or flatmates of the opposite gender might be "intolerable" - that speaks of a level of distrust I find a bit disturbing. If you can't trust your SO to be faithful, simply by dint of proximity to another member of the opposite sex, you a) aren't giving them very much credit (so why are you with them?) b) are assuming an awful lot about the room-mates/friends, and c) seem to think that all women and all men are inevitably going to have enough physical attraction to each other that they will be unable to avoid engaging in sexual contact. If that were true, none of us would be in this forum.
Speaking from my own experience, I have at least as many male as female friends, and have lived with as many men/boys as women, partnered and single. (Actually my male flatmates were brilliant, come to think of it.) There are a handful among my friends I have at some stage felt attracted to, but many, many more with whom my relationship and feelings have only ever been platonic or fraternal, in a few cases. I've never kissed, slept with or had other 'illicit' contact wth any of them. Of course I'm emotionally attached to them, but not romantically interested. We may have bantered mildly flirtatiously at one point or another, we may hug, we may talk on the phone/send texts/emails/birthday cards, but that's as far as it goes. That's friendly behaviour, not cheating.0 -
Slightly stunned by the idea that people having friends or flatmates of the opposite gender might be "intolerable" - that speaks of a level of distrust I find a bit disturbing. If you can't trust your SO to be faithful, simply by dint of proximity to another member of the opposite sex, you a) aren't giving them very much credit (so why are you with them?) b) are assuming an awful lot about the room-mates/friends, and c) seem to think that all women and all men are inevitably going to have enough physical attraction to each other that they will be unable to avoid engaging in sexual contact. If that were true, none of us would be in this forum.
I know, me too!! Weird isn't it?
@Christine - did you go to a same sex school? Do you have any brothers?
Not having a go at you or anything, but you seem to lack experience/insight all round with the opposite sex so mixing with them more would do you a lot of good. Perhaps even try a mixed house share? You will find that people can co habit and chat and eat together on a daily basis without having to jump on each other (unless they want to!) :flowerforyou:0 -
Every man in the world is thinking about having crazy sex with other women *occasionally*, even when he's in a committed, stable relationship with a fantastic woman. However, if he was stupid enough to tell you the following:
"Wow, I was fantasizing about having kinky sex with our new neighbor. You know, the tall blonde woman from down the street? So it started out like this: I drop by with a fruit basket to welcome her to the neighborhood, and then..... little did I know she was a gymnast... and so finally.... etc., etc."
--P
I dont think fantasising would be classed as cheating. Women do that too!
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I dont think fantasising would be classed as cheating. Women do that too!
My point was that we men (and no doubt you women) do things that our partners would not want to know about. And would no doubt make them uncomfortable. But so long as it doesn't cross the line of exchanging body fluids* (or actively trying to exchange body fluids), it's fair game.
--P
* Of course Europeans have a bit more leeway here, especially continental Europeans.... I'm kissing people all the time at work, as is custom. Usually on the cheek, but with close friends even on the mouth when we greet, etc. In the Middle East, I have even kissed men on the cheek, as is custom.0 -
To me there are two seperate issues. One is what is cheating and the other is what may lead to cheating.
I agree with the definition of cheating as sex, oral sex, possibly (non-European) kissing. (edited to add qualifier after seeing above post :happy: )
The other category is much less clear cut. There are some things which, whilst they are not cheating, most people would be unhappy with as they involve a degree of intimacy that should be reserved for your partner. I agree, concealment is a clear sign that the activity crosses this line. But theline is different for different people, which is why communication about such things and choosing someone with shared values is important.
What bothers me is when other people define as cheating things which are not within the context of a specific relationship. Flirting is an example of this. Some couples are fine with mild flirting, they don't view it as significant or disrespectful and they don't conceal it from each other. Some couples are fine with their partners having close friends of the opposite sex, as long as they don't feel excuded. Some partners view porn use as unacceptable, others don't - same goes for fantasy or reading erotic fiction. That's fine, live and let live
The problems only come if couples have different views on this or if people attempt to define others by their own standards as cheaters.
I think what often causes the heat in such discussions is the expectation that everyone should behave as they do so that our partners are not tempted to "cheat". This is unrealistic, in my view, and assumes that we need to be kept in a world in which all temptation is avoided, to ensure fidelity. As an example, there are many people on mfp who believe that one shouldn't have mfp friends of the opposite sex, or comment on success stories of the opposite sex, as this establishes communications which may lead to a relationship developing or be seen as disrespectful to a partner. There's nothing wrong with this if both parties are happy with it, but it illustrates how constraining such standards can be to those that don't view them as necessary and how futile it would be to try and define anything we are uncomfortable with as cheating as others will have a very different view, informed by their own standards and experience.0 -
Slightly stunned by the idea that people having friends or flatmates of the opposite gender might be "intolerable" - that speaks of a level of distrust I find a bit disturbing. If you can't trust your SO to be faithful, simply by dint of proximity to another member of the opposite sex, you a) aren't giving them very much credit (so why are you with them?) b) are assuming an awful lot about the room-mates/friends, and c) seem to think that all women and all men are inevitably going to have enough physical attraction to each other that they will be unable to avoid engaging in sexual contact. If that were true, none of us would be in this forum.
I know, me too!! Weird isn't it?
@Christine - did you go to a same sex school? Do you have any brothers?
Not having a go at you or anything, but you seem to lack experience/insight all round with the opposite sex so mixing with them more would do you a lot of good. Perhaps even try a mixed house share? You will find that people can co habit and chat and eat together on a daily basis without having to jump on each other (unless they want to!) :flowerforyou:
Me too - but we are all Brits so manybe this is a cultural difference? Though perhaps not - isn't Friends a US show?
I lived in shared houses with guys for years when I was a student and in my 20s. For a couple of those years I was the only girl in a house with three guys, one of whom was my boyfriend.0 -
Cheating is def mainly physical and I agree with lorro about how the other acts lead to cheating which are equally painful!
This whole room mate thing is strange, some of you would ask a guy to find a new living situation?? I'd ask you to shut the door when you walk your *kitten* out of it lol.
Little bit ridiculous I'd you ask me. If I'm not living with one of my close mates which I do at the moment, I have always preferred to live with females. I don't like the idea the sharing with random dudes. I had a French girl living with me 2 years ago and it was great, she had a boyfriend and I was single for part of it and had a girlfriend for part of it as well. No problems ever.0 -
I share this opinion. It's whatever your spouse would be uncomfortable with.
That is ridiculous.
That may be ridiculous for you, but a great many of people (and psychologists) feel the same way. In fact, back when I was a pastor's wife and voracious reader of all things relationship focused, I found that while there were some experts who recommended opposite-sex friendships (and even flings!) many more experts recommend limiting opposite-sex friendships/flirting/borderline behavior if it caused the spouse discomfort. If you don't agree, that's fine. But it's not ridiculous for someone to have another opinion. I, personally, think it's immoral for my coworker to have affair-esqe relationships with hot guy of the week while her husband is deployed. But her husband doesn't care. I may not agree with it, but they appear to be happy. That said, I know very few men who would be happy if their wives behaved that way.
That doesn't make them ridiculous. It just makes them different.
Many of us would not get into a LTR or marriage with someone who was actively flirting/skirting the edge with another partner. Or even emotionally intimate with another partner. So why do we try to pretend it's ok afterward "because you should trust me by now?" It is NOT unreasonable for someone to be upset that their SO introduced that behavior after the relationship has solidified.0 -
You've completely missed my point. What is ridiculous is defining cheating as "anything your spouse would be uncomfortable with," as you defined it. This is just too broad of a definition, and relies on the rationality of your significant other.
You can argue that cohabitation, mingling, flirting, whatever, is good or bad for a relationship. Fine. I'm not commenting on that per se. I'm just saying you can't define cheating by how actions are interpreted by a third party.
--P0 -
You've completely missed my point. What is ridiculous is defining cheating as "anything your spouse would be uncomfortable with," as you defined it. This is just too broad of a definition, and relies on the rationality of your significant other.
You can argue that cohabitation, mingling, flirting, whatever, is good or bad for a relationship. Fine. I'm not commenting on that per se. I'm just saying you can't define cheating by how actions are interpreted by a third party.
--P
What she said is logically true, though.
Let's assume for a minute that:
- For me cheating is shaking hand with someone.
- For your hypothetical girlfriend cheating is kissing on the lips (and more).
- For you cheating is *kitten* and more.
You shook someone's hand. For you it's not cheating, but you cheated "on me". But who cares since we're not in a relationship...
You kissed someone on the lips. For you it's not cheating, but you cheated on your hypothetical girlfriend. You care since you're in a relationship. Whether she is rational or not doesn't matter, in her opinion/perception of events you cheated, and she's the one whose opinion you're supposed to care about regarding cheating (not mine!). Well, hers and yours.
So then you guys have an adult conversation about it...
So the point is: you cheat >>on someone who matters to you<< if you do something that they don't want you to do, whether you agree with them (in what case you stop doing it) or not (in what case you split or convince her of the contrary).
I'd blame myself for staying with an irrational partner and split if I was with one. Done.0 -
You've completely missed my point. What is ridiculous is defining cheating as "anything your spouse would be uncomfortable with," as you defined it. This is just too broad of a definition, and relies on the rationality of your significant other.
You can argue that cohabitation, mingling, flirting, whatever, is good or bad for a relationship. Fine. I'm not commenting on that per se. I'm just saying you can't define cheating by how actions are interpreted by a third party.
--P
I tend to agree. For example, if you are married and your spouse thinks you dress too provacatively or doesn't want you talking to members of the opposite sex are you cheating or is he/she controlling and smothering?0 -
You can argue that cohabitation, mingling, flirting, whatever, is good or bad for a relationship. Fine. I'm not commenting on that per se. I'm just saying you can't define cheating by how actions are interpreted by a third party.
We'll just have to disagree on that. I wouldn’t be comfortable with a partner who tells me I can’t define what feels like “cheating” for me. It’s like giving gifts that people don’t want and brushing it off with “It’s the thought that counts.” No, when you really care for someone over the years you at least try to learn what they like. Thankfully for you, few of the single women on this board think like I do.
Personally, I think that displays of love as well as cheating fall in line with interpretation by the intended party with, perhaps, the exception of mental illness.
As a “love” example: My ex husband never interpreted all my cooking, cleaning, and shopping for him as a sign of love. Yet, to me it was an expression of love. It was stuff I did for him because I loved him. I thougth I was showing him I loved him by doing these things. Meant nothing to him. What felt like "love" to him was me taking care of myself and looking good. I can argue all day that he's unreasonable to feel that way. But if I want to have a solid relationship, I must determine what love looks like to my partner and decide if I'm willing to show him love that way for the rest of my life.
Similarly, my partner and I have to determine where each other’s boundaries lie wrt cheating, and decide if we’re willing to abide by those boundaries for the rest of our lives.0 -
it doesn't matter, in her reality you cheated. Not in yours, not in mine, perhaps, but in hers. Now you've got the right to disagree with her, but if everyone agreed on everything "per se" and put the same meaning into every word, there wouldn't be tribunals...You've completely missed my point. What is ridiculous is defining cheating as "anything your spouse would be uncomfortable with," as you defined it. This is just too broad of a definition, and relies on the rationality of your significant other.
You can argue that cohabitation, mingling, flirting, whatever, is good or bad for a relationship. Fine. I'm not commenting on that per se. I'm just saying you can't define cheating by how actions are interpreted by a third party.
--P
I tend to agree. For example, if you are married and your spouse thinks you dress too provacatively or doesn't want you talking to members of the opposite sex are you cheating or is he/she controlling and smothering?
Although I agree there is a commonly accepted definition to things (and for cheating too), there is still enough margin of error for people to actually cheat when they think they don't.0 -
So the point is: you cheat >>on someone who matters to you<< if you do something that they don't want you to do, whether you agree with them (in what case you stop doing it) or not (in what case you split or convince her of the contrary).
No. words have meanings, and you can't just expand the word "cheating" to take on any action at all. Especially as defined by a third party. If you do, the word loses all meaning.
Scenario: you (male) work at an office with an attractive female. You and the attractive female colleague drive across town to meet a client to discuss a potential project. Your SO finds out you were at a meeting with your co-worker, and accuses you of cheating on her.
Your response?
1 - Gosh, someone that matters to me thinks I'm cheating on her. Even though I don't agree this is cheating, since she is bothered by it, I must assume it's cheating, if I can't convince her to the contrary.
OR
2 - Honey, you're bat %$#^ crazy, that's not cheating. It's a friggin' business meeting that happened to involve a co-worker!!!!! How can you call that cheating!!!
--P0 -
Ok, YOU define the "Universally Accepted Definition (TM)" of cheating then... Good luck with that. On that forum alone, we've seen a variety of opinions already.So the point is: you cheat >>on someone who matters to you<< if you do something that they don't want you to do, whether you agree with them (in what case you stop doing it) or not (in what case you split or convince her of the contrary).
No. words have meanings, and you can't just expand the word "cheating" to take on any action at all. Especially as defined by a third party. If you do, the word loses all meaning.
Your response?
1 - Gosh, someone that matters to me thinks I'm cheating on her. Even though I don't agree this is cheating, since she is bothered by it, I must assume it's cheating, if I can't convince her to the contrary.
OR
2 - Honey, you're bat %$#^ crazy, that's not cheating. It's a friggin' business meeting that happened to involve a co-worker!!!!! How can you call that cheating!!!
As for 1, it is a lot less ridiculous than you think, it happens frequently, and the next step is "Ok... I can't convince her it is NOT cheating >>IMHO<< and we disagree, so let's split."
Here are your options:
1 - "Girl, you're right, I'm right, the relationship doesn't work, let's stop."
2 - "Girl, you're wrong."
Guess which one is preferable.0 -
In fact, this whole discussion reminds me of the "she was asking for it" approach to sexual assault. The rapist saw her walking alone late at night in a short mini skirt, drunk, and therefore thought she was clearly looking for violent sex. He legitimately thought that was what she wanted. Does that make it right?
No, that makes him a POS rapist. Because words have meanings.
Your gf/bf may think you're cheating, but because words have meanings, it depends on your specific actions. Living with a roommate of the opposite sex is not cheating. It may not be advisable if you want to continue in a specific relationship (I wouldn't care, but whatever), but that doesn't make sharing an apartment with someone of the opposite sex "cheating." Sleeping over at a friend's house (of the opposite sex) does not mean you "cheated" on your bf/gf. It probably means you were too drunk or tired to drive home. Unless, of course, you actually exchanged some body fluids, nudge, nudge, wink, wink...
--P0 -
Can we all agree there's a difference between 'cheating' and doing something that your partner finds disrespectful/crosses their mental lines for appropriate behaviour in a relationship? The latter is something that needs to be discussed within each specific relationship, and each person's feelings respected (within reason - I'm sorry, I cannot see having close friends of the opposite gender as 'cheating' in any way, shape or form. Any man who expected me to ditch friends of decades' standing simply because they are male would soon find himself kicked to the kerb.)
Everyone will have behaviours they feel are 'undesirable' in their SO, and will feel more or less strongly about elements within that, but actual 'cheating' has got to be more than interaction with a member of the opposite sex, or we'd all be in single-gender workplaces, hospitals, schools, buses etc etc etc. Intention, added to action, is surely key. Are you getting in the car with your male/female co-worker with the intent of having a sexual or romantic encounter, or are you actually just going to a meeting?! Am I going to see 'Spiderman' at the cinema with my best male friend because we're going to sit in the back row and make out, or are we going because we've been going to comic films together for 10 years, throwing popcorn at the screen every time there's a cheesy line (don't sit in front of us!) and then acting out the action sequences in absurd accents on the way home?! If you can't trust your partner's intentions, I'll say it again - why are you with them?
It seems to me that some of the more extreme ideas of what constitutes 'cheating' are perhaps more a reflection of people's own insecurities than actual cheating...0 -
Slightly stunned by the idea that people having friends or flatmates of the opposite gender might be "intolerable" - that speaks of a level of distrust I find a bit disturbing. If you can't trust your SO to be faithful, simply by dint of proximity to another member of the opposite sex, you a) aren't giving them very much credit (so why are you with them?) b) are assuming an awful lot about the room-mates/friends, and c) seem to think that all women and all men are inevitably going to have enough physical attraction to each other that they will be unable to avoid engaging in sexual contact.
I agree! My boyfriend has a female roommate and I have zero problem with this. If I did have a reason to distrust either of them, my relationship would deteriorate... trust is most important in a relationship!0
