Painful Conversation
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will treat you like Mr Grey did Ana if he has the self esteem to do so
I don't know who these people are?0 -
will treat you like Mr Grey did Ana if he has the self esteem to do so
I don't know who these people are?
50 shaedes of Grey (and I haven't even read the book)0 -
Am I the only guy here who is slightly turned off by a women who's an academic and career all-star? Seems like everytime I meet a girl who's a lawyer or doctor type, they always act like they have something to prove. Most wear their J.D. or M.D. on their sleeve usually lead a conversation with that.
I have an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering (though I work in a completely different field) and there are A LOT of highly educated women where I work. Most feel the need that they need to "flex their muscle" and "rock the boat" extra hard because they think they have to prove themselves to the guys. I deal with it on a daily basis and gets annoying.
Just my experience.. take it with a grain of salt.0 -
Ahhh.....thank you. I prefer a shop rat over a professional anything any day.0
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Ahhh.....thank you. I prefer a shop rat over a professional anything any day.
Amen to this^^^^0 -
you believe some people eliminate you immediately because of that (especially online) but perhaps a way top combat that would be to change your profile?
Unfortunately, I think educated men and women have withhold info on their online dating profiles. When I first signed up for Match, I answered the question "Where do you see yourself in 5 years" with a very honest "Getting a PhD." I got VERY little attention until I deleted that.
When Dave, who mentioned the PhD being a hindrance for men too, posted a sample profile for review long time ago, my #1 comment was to remove his degree because what I knew of him in the forum indicated he would not be compatible with the typical type of woman who would be attracted to a man with that PhD.0 -
So, I guess this thread means I should be grateful that I'm just an administrative assistant?
Dude... did you just say "JUST an administrative assistant?" I am not fooled. Those ladies secretly RULE the world.0 -
Why would I pretend school was hard? I can see the value of trying to downplay it, but it only comes across as false humility because it’s not true. And that irritates people moreAfter this, I would have said something to the effect of, "yes, school was hard but I love my job. I also like to ______."
No, most civilian guys have no clue so it doesn’t matter. But this guy said in one of his previous texts he was in the military and couldn’t hack it so left at a very junior rank (only one tour). I, personally, have ho issue with this because there are many reasons someone couldn’t hack it in the military- an analytical, think outside the box personality (that I love) being one of them. But I know HE is gonna freak, because when he finds out I’ve been in 15 years he’s gonna think I won’t give him a chance.I'm not sure how the military works, but is it a big deal to tell a civilian your ranking?I personally wouldn't have acknowledged that it was awkward. I would have said something like, "So, what do you do now that you're out of the military?" Or if you already know, I would have said, "so you're a _______. how do you like that?"
True, but I’ve been down this road before. When a guy wants to get through his pre-determined questions, if you don’t put a stop to it he just keeps working down the list… not realizing that he is making it awkward and lessoning his chance of actually getting to meet you. I felt like this was a good way to let him know I didn’t want to continue talking about this stuff but that I was still interested in talking to him. Would love some male feedback if there are better ways, such as what Christine suggested above, to have communicated this to him. He really did sound like a cool guy.Don't hide who you are because you're scared of what a guy or girl you like might think. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, take time to find that person's before you discount them.
My post is not about being scared of what the guy thinks of me. It’s about trying to find a way to communicate honestly while still putting him at ease so he can get to know me so that by time he learns these things about me, they will not matter to him. I’m much better with generic (though still 100% true) answers (like “I do admin work”) that help this out. But when a guy comes out and directly asks I still have trouble crafting answers that are still honest yet not intimidating.0 -
Am I the only guy here who is slightly turned off by a women who's an academic and career all-star?
No... you're just the only one strong enough to admit it in public
FWIW, my “something to prove” days are over. I’ve realized something that many of my female peers haven’t yet figured out: I don’t need to BE a man… and I don’t need to wait for the mythical man who sees us as 100% equals in all areas. Rather, I need a partner… a man who complements me. "Everything a man can do, I can do better" is rubbish. I’m the strong one 70-100% in some areas, and he’s the strong one 70-100% in some areas. Together we are an undefeatable, happy, passionate team.0 -
I’m not looking for a man to be impressed with me. I have yet to have a guy who was impressed by me fall in love with me. In fact, men that highly respect my accomplishments are often VERY disappointed when they discover that off duty I’m girly/blingy, goofy, and have simple tastes.0
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Fwiw,I and the rest of the guys here know something of your life and who you are and am pretty confident in saying none of us care about those things.
Everyone can get past preconceived ideas if both are willing to try.0 -
So, I guess this thread means I should be grateful that I'm just an administrative assistant?
Dude... did you just say "JUST an administrative assistant?" I am not fooled. Those ladies secretly RULE the world.
I just asked my 18 year old daughter if I should be offended for being called "Dude"....she said no. So, I guess I'm ok with it.
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Why would I pretend school was hard? I can see the value of trying to downplay it, but it only comes across as false humility because it’s not true. And that irritates people moreAfter this, I would have said something to the effect of, "yes, school was hard but I love my job. I also like to ______."
I get what you mean, but my point was more to focus off your job and onto other things. You could easily say something like, "I was in school for a long time to get my degrees, but I love my job now so it was worth it. I also like to _________" or "I loved being in school, but I'm happy to be working in my field now. In my spare time though, I also like to ________."0 -
I think Christine is right.Would love some male feedback if there are better ways, such as what Christine suggested above, to have communicated this to him. He really did sound like a cool guy.
She's in essence telling you that the way you respond matters. The message is made of two part: the information and the form. You've got your information alright, but you failed at the form. Everyone pretty much fails at the form, the form is probably more important than the content (information) in itself.
Related topics: sales, body language, first minute at a job interview, initiate a conversation in a pub.
The delivery matters more than the line in itself. Any person who has failed to tell a joke to a group of people because of their poor delivery will tell you that, whereas someone else, using the same joke, made it funny. Any person who has failed to initiate a conversation with a girl in a bar will tell you that, whereas someone else, using the same line, has done it with ease.
Your guy is an idiot though, if he knew how himself to handle this, he would be able to recover from this conversation without too much trouble. Maybe he would have stopped digging himself a hole too.
Just downplay your achievements.It’s about trying to find a way to communicate honestly while still putting him at ease so he can get to know me so that by time he learns these things about me, they will not matter to him.
I’m much better with generic (though still 100% true) answers (like “I do admin work”) that help this out. But when a guy comes out and directly asks I still have trouble crafting answers that are still honest yet not intimidating.
Related topics: PUA demonstration of higher value.
Succinctly, what this tells you is that when interacting with other people in the context of a date, you are trying to demonstrate your value to the other person, a higher value. Because you want the other person to be interested in you, not disgusted about you, and the other person is trying to demonstrate their value too because (if they are interested) they want to prove they are worthy of you (and vice-versa). This is particularly important for men who are still expected to be "in control". Your guy obviously failed at demonstrating his value, since you pretty much "beat him at anything".
Anyway, just downplay your achievements, laugh about them, prepare a funny line about them that make people feel relaxed about it (self deprecation).
I think you're too "heavy", the way I read the conversation it feels like you're dropping a (nuclear) bomb every time you speak. It doesn't have to be this way...
- I've studied Nuclear Physics... Mind you I still can't change a light bulb/fix my car/fix my house! :laugh: You know how to fix a car? (Etc. just to imply: yeah, I still have space in my life for someone, I'm not perfect)
- No I don't know how to fix a car!"
- Damn you've got to be useful at something... no? What's your best skill? Your secret - or not so secret - talent? Painting, music?
- Hmm. I like to do X...
- Wow, that's awesome. How does this work tell me? Is it fun?
(conversation went from job to leisures = win)
This guy is bad.When a guy wants to get through his pre-determined questions, if you don’t put a stop to it he just keeps working down the list…
Normally you're supposed to pick cues in the conversation and ping it back to the person you're talking to with some sort of processing/emotional involvment. You only need 2-3 questions at worst before you can say "OH! I did that too, it was amazing" (or some *kitten* like that).
I was chatting with a girl the other day and early on in the conversation I asked her "So what do you do for a living?", she replied "I tell you what, I really hate this question."... You can tell she's had crappy conversation starting like this before. Fair enough.
Still, by getting involved with her answers, despite this crappy conversation starter, we probably talked for 45 min or so (I asked her only this one question job interview style, and went on a natural conversation based on her answer), and she did most of the talking so she was obviously quite happy to get to know someone.0 -
I just hate the idea of having to downplay anything you've accomplished in your life. Serving in the military for 15 years and having a master's degree in nuclear engineering are both so impressive, and I am sorry that men are scared away by these things. If you were in their face bragging about how awesome you are and showing off all of your metals, etc., then that would be different. But simply stating what you've done and what you're doing now only to end with a man running the other way is just........ I don't know. Sad? Unfortunate? Unfair? Can we seriously not win for losing in this "game?" First they want a woman who knows something, but not too much. Gosh, this is starting to sound like a rant. Ok, I'm checking out now! I think I'm just hungry for dinner.
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I think Christine is right.
She's in essence telling you that the way you respond matters. The message is made of two part: the information and the form. You've got your information alright, but you failed at the form. Everyone pretty much fails at the form, the form is probably more important than the content (information) in itself.
Definitely agree with this.
Related topics: PUA demonstration of higher value.
Succinctly, what this tells you is that when interacting with other people in the context of a date, you are trying to demonstrate your value to the other person, a higher value. Because you want the other person to be interested in you, not disgusted about you, and the other person is trying to demonstrate their value too because (if they are interested) they want to prove they are worthy of you (and vice-versa). This is particularly important for men who are still expected to be "in control". Your guy obviously failed at demonstrating his value, since you pretty much "beat him at anything".
Anyway, just downplay your achievements, laugh about them, prepare a funny line about them that make people feel relaxed about it (self deprecation).
I think you're too "heavy", the way I read the conversation it feels like you're dropping a (nuclear) bomb every time you speak. It doesn't have to be this way...
- I've studied Nuclear Physics... Mind you I still can't change a light bulb/fix my car/fix my house! :laugh: You know how to fix a car? (Etc. just to imply: yeah, I still have space in my life for someone, I'm not perfect)
- No I don't know how to fix a car!"
- Damn you've got to be useful at something... no? What's your best skill? Your secret - or not so secret - talent? Painting, music?
- Hmm. I like to do X...
- Wow, that's awesome. How does this work tell me? Is it fun?
(conversation went from job to leisures = win)
I love this.
While you have all of these great achievements that you should be proud of, you may have to downplay them a little to get better results. I'm a RN and a lot of times when people find that out, they're really surprised and say things like "oh, wow, that must be so hard" or "I couldn't do that." School was hard for me, and I still struggle everyday at work. But I love my job anyway, so I say things like, "it is hard, but it's worthwhile. I love working with people." I turn it back to the basics of the job and why my personality works with it, not the job itself. Does that make sense? People won't be so intimidated by a PhD if they say something like, "I like teaching college" or "I like studying how cancer affects our bodies, so maybe one day it can be cured" or "I like studying numbers. Did you know that you can use math to help do _____________. It's pretty cool. I'm into working better for the future. What do you like about your job?"
Adding a little humor into the conversation will do wonders. Many men will be intimidated by a strong woman. That does not mean you can't be strong. But it means you have to be willing and have the need to have a man in your life. A man wants to feel like you need him for something. If you can provide for yourself, fix your own car, change your own oil, and kill the spiders, where does he fit into your life? He can't picture himself being there. Why do you need him?0 -
I believe that humility is a tool created by those that don't succeed to bring down people that do.
Which leads to one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes, from Richard III:
“Conscience is but a word that cowards use,
Devis'd at first to keep the strong in awe:
Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law.
March on, join bravely, let us to't pell-mell;
If not to heaven, then hand in hand to hell.”
--P0 -
I don't know, people. The entire idea of coaching the OP on how to play down her accomplishments is, well, in my mind, perverse.
What kind of loser gets intimidated by another's success? I'd be impressed as hell if a woman told me she had a Master's in Nuclear Engineering. Full disclosure: I only have a BS in electrical engineering. :-( But the last thing on my mind would be feeling inadequate. I'd probably spend an inappropriate amount of time discussing her curriculum, perhaps having her explain the physics behind nuclear propulsion for submarines (assuming she's Navy), etc. That's a cool date, right there.
To what kind of a man do you need to downplay your achievements? An inadequate man, in my opinion. If he can't handle it, have him go date a flight attendent (although, as we learned earlier, she's probably going to be a biochemist, so he's screwed).... :-)
--P0 -
I don't know, people. The entire idea of coaching the OP on how to play down her accomplishments is, well, in my mind, perverse.
What kind of loser gets intimidated by another's success? I'd be impressed as hell if a woman told me she had a Master's in Nuclear Engineering. Full disclosure: I only have a BS in electrical engineering. :-( But the last thing on my mind would be feeling inadequate. I'd probably spend an inappropriate amount of time discussing her curriculum, perhaps having her explain the physics behind nuclear propulsion for submarines (assuming she's Navy), etc. That's a cool date, right there.
To what kind of a man do you need to downplay your achievements? An inadequate man, in my opinion. If he can't handle it, have him go date a flight attendent (although, as we learned earlier, she's probably going to be a biochemist, so he's screwed).... :-)
--P
^ ^ This.0 -
I have to add...A flight attendent is not a job I would ever desire so hopefully am not seeming to diss it.
Long hours,many days/nights away from home,dealing with tne public etc.0 -
I have to add...A flight attendent is not a job I would ever desire so hopefully am not seeming to diss it.
Long hours,many days/nights away from home,dealing with tne public etc.
Nothing but respect for flight attendants. Hard work, high stress, low pay, etc.
I only brought that up because of the previous poster who said that she claimed to be a flight attendant to avoid admitting she's actually a biochemist (if I remember correctly). So purely introduced for comic effect.
Apologies to any flight attendants out there. Especially on Emirates. Where I do appreciate the frequent upgrades, and would not want those to stop... ;-)
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Am I the only guy here who is slightly turned off by a women who's an academic and career all-star?
No... you're just the only one strong enough to admit it in public
FWIW, my “something to prove” days are over. I’ve realized something that many of my female peers haven’t yet figured out: I don’t need to BE a man… and I don’t need to wait for the mythical man who sees us as 100% equals in all areas. Rather, I need a partner… a man who complements me. "Everything a man can do, I can do better" is rubbish. I’m the strong one 70-100% in some areas, and he’s the strong one 70-100% in some areas. Together we are an undefeatable, happy, passionate team.
I understand where Mike is coming from and agree with Janie on this. Thankfully those days are behind me (though I JUST have my undergrad in engineering ) of feeling the need to prove I can be better than men. I actually enjoy getting to be feminine AND smart now, haha!
Is it just me or are there an awful lot of engineers on here? Pattern? Anyone care to analyze the probability? :laugh:0 -
Yup. That.... except the part about having a sad face for a BS in electrical engineering (something I look for in my match searches since I think engineers tend to be quite logical thinkers... but correct me if I'm wrong).I don't know, people. The entire idea of coaching the OP on how to play down her accomplishments is, well, in my mind, perverse.
What kind of loser gets intimidated by another's success? I'd be impressed as hell if a woman told me she had a Master's in Nuclear Engineering. Full disclosure: I only have a BS in electrical engineering. :-( But the last thing on my mind would be feeling inadequate. I'd probably spend an inappropriate amount of time discussing her curriculum, perhaps having her explain the physics behind nuclear propulsion for submarines (assuming she's Navy), etc. That's a cool date, right there.
To what kind of a man do you need to downplay your achievements? An inadequate man, in my opinion. If he can't handle it, have him go date a flight attendent (although, as we learned earlier, she's probably going to be a biochemist, so he's screwed).... :-)
--P
^ ^ This.
A guy who is confident and shows an interest in what I have achieved in my life definitely piques my interest. Those are always my best first dates.
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Kudos to you for your *JUST* engineering degree. I sometimes look back now and wish I had gone into engineering. I didn't have the confidence in my math abilities to even try. Although at my university, not being in engineering meant I didn't have to go through frosh week with purple skin.Am I the only guy here who is slightly turned off by a women who's an academic and career all-star?
No... you're just the only one strong enough to admit it in public
FWIW, my “something to prove” days are over. I’ve realized something that many of my female peers haven’t yet figured out: I don’t need to BE a man… and I don’t need to wait for the mythical man who sees us as 100% equals in all areas. Rather, I need a partner… a man who complements me. "Everything a man can do, I can do better" is rubbish. I’m the strong one 70-100% in some areas, and he’s the strong one 70-100% in some areas. Together we are an undefeatable, happy, passionate team.
I understand where Mike is coming from and agree with Janie on this. Thankfully those days are behind me (though I JUST have my undergrad in engineering ) of feeling the need to prove I can be better than men. I actually enjoy getting to be feminine AND smart now, haha!
Is it just me or are there an awful lot of engineers on here? Pattern? Anyone care to analyze the probability? :laugh:0 -
What kind of loser gets intimidated by another's success? I'd be impressed as hell if a woman told me she had a Master's in Nuclear Engineering. Full disclosure: I only have a BS in electrical engineering. :-( But the last thing on my mind would be feeling inadequate. I'd probably spend an inappropriate amount of time discussing her curriculum, perhaps having her explain the physics behind nuclear propulsion for submarines (assuming she's Navy), etc. That's a cool date, right there.
Because you have a degree, you are used to understanding the academic world. To someone who doesn't have a college degree, a person with a master's in nuclear engineering can be daunting. You said you would talk to her about her curriculum. What if you never even took basic physics? That's me right here! I dropped out after a day because I would never understand it. And then to meet someone with a master's degree in nuclear engineering? That is probably why with people with don't have a degree you might have to downplay it somewhat, because it is scary to have such a huge difference in your career fields.
Ideally, people should respect others' differences and embrace them, but I can see where someone would be intimidated. Definitely.0 -
you believe some people eliminate you immediately because of that (especially online) but perhaps a way top combat that would be to change your profile?
Unfortunately, I think educated men and women have withhold info on their online dating profiles. When I first signed up for Match, I answered the question "Where do you see yourself in 5 years" with a very honest "Getting a PhD." I got VERY little attention until I deleted that.
When Dave, who mentioned the PhD being a hindrance for men too, posted a sample profile for review long time ago, my #1 comment was to remove his degree because what I knew of him in the forum indicated he would not be compatible with the typical type of woman who would be attracted to a man with that PhD.
I'd like to add that I have a graduate degree and haven't noticed this problem in my own life. I've dated guys with a high school diploma and some with a PhD, and plenty in between, and it's never been an issue.
So much of this topic is about what Flam called 'form'. I suggested editing your profiles because I was wondering if along with your credentials you might have a list of requirements for potential matches or something similar...either on their own might be fine, but combined could come across as being overly particular or sounding strict or critical. As an example, have you ever read a posting for your dream job and noticed that you had 8 out of the 10 criteria listed under 'requirements' and didn't apply because of the lacking 2? The same thing could be happening with guys online, so it's important to maximize approachability without compromising the individual. That was all I meant with the editing suggestion and I hope it makes sense.0 -
I understand where Mike is coming from and agree with Janie on this. Thankfully those days are behind me (though I JUST have my undergrad in engineering ) of feeling the need to prove I can be better than men. I actually enjoy getting to be feminine AND smart now, haha!
Is it just me or are there an awful lot of engineers on here? Pattern? Anyone care to analyze the probability? :laugh:
I think there are a handful of us on here. Are you EE?
I'm always curious to talk to other engineers and see what they do for a living.0 -
I'm going to go hide under my desk with my high school diploma
Make room for me sweetpea, . I only have an associates.
Same...
Good for you... Seriously.
You're very established, and have accomplished a lot. One day, a guy isn't going to be intimidated and will admire all of that. It's incredible!0 -
I'm going to go hide under my desk with my high school diploma
Make room for me sweetpea, . I only have an associates.
Same...
Good for you... Seriously.
You're very established, and have accomplished a lot. One day, a guy isn't going to be intimidated and will admire all of that. It's incredible!
I need room as well.......wait I'm still pretty big. I should just go get another desk to hide under. :laugh:0 -
I'd probably spend an inappropriate amount of time discussing her curriculum, perhaps having her explain the physics behind nuclear propulsion for submarines (assuming she's Navy), etc. That's a cool date, right there.
Actually, in my experience it hasn't been a cool date. Which is why I try to avoid the topic altogether. It just never ends well. The rare guy who actually WANTS to talk about physics/nuke stuff often thinks they know something, tries to impress me, and is usually wrong. And I usually go out with strong personalities, so then I have to figure out if it's worth letting him keep talking and be wrong (for sake of his ego) or correcting him (which is hard to do b/c he's gonna come at it every which way to prove he's right til I give up).
Maybe it's because I'm not as techie as people think when they hear about it...? So either they misjudge me or run, or they're looking for an engineering girl (rare) and I am not her.
Once I went out with someone who WAS a physicist and I was soooooo embarrassed b/c he was talking about stuff I'd forgotten (and really don't care about) long ago. I told him so. Turned out, he thought I was still "in the academic mix" so he was trying to impress me. He, like me, had been doing management for so long that he really wasn't current with research either. We had a fabulous time running the beach, talking about dogs and life normal stuff, then a fun dinner with no engineering or physics talk.0
