NOT WORKING!! Calories, science, and standard deviation
Replies
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I don't think I have a damaged-beyond-repair metabolism, as what is stated by needing a reset. However, I think my reset, and 12+ weeks of eating a surplus obviously showed that the TDEE Scooby says I should have wasn't right for me, since I'm 15-20lbs. heavier after doing it. Blech. I have not found my "sweet spot" yet, and maybe looking at this equation will give me something new to try. I applaude EM2WL for all the people it has helped, but had I known that following this philosophy would set me back a whole year of hard work, I wouldn't have gone this route. It will take me the same five months I spent gaining on this program, to get the darn weight off, then I have to start over with what I had to lose last spring.... which was only another 8-10 lbs.
This is totally me!!!!!!! Except I have done the reset followed by increased cals for well over 7 months and continue to gain. :sad:
I posed this question here before and never really heard of anyone that had had success that shared a similar situation as mine, which is : can this work if you have been eating at deficit for years, and lost 100+ pounds (or alot of weight) and possibly really damaged the metabolism, possibly beyond repair??? I really believe that I just cant eat that much at all.
When I started MFP I was at 162 pounds, and I wanted to lose 5-10 lbs. Fast forward November of last year when I started hearing about eating more, and gradaully increased cals up from 1600-1700 to 2000. Slowly gained up to 165-166. Fast forward to March of this year when I started reset, and I am now somewhere around 175 :sad: :noway: My clothes are tight, I am jiggly, and even my husband noticed I have gained...
Can you help me with numbers to run??? I am 5'8". My TDEE est by scooby is 2300, with BMR at 1580.
I have even used the BMF as others have, and continue to gain. Based on that I should eat 2500-3000 and still lose, which believe me I tried and just kept gaining.....and its not like I have been doing this for a month and said eff it and quit. I am going on 2 years here people!!!!
(thanks!!!)0 -
I don't think I have a damaged-beyond-repair metabolism, as what is stated by needing a reset. However, I think my reset, and 12+ weeks of eating a surplus obviously showed that the TDEE Scooby says I should have wasn't right for me, since I'm 15-20lbs. heavier after doing it. Blech. I have not found my "sweet spot" yet, and maybe looking at this equation will give me something new to try. I applaude EM2WL for all the people it has helped, but had I known that following this philosophy would set me back a whole year of hard work, I wouldn't have gone this route. It will take me the same five months I spent gaining on this program, to get the darn weight off, then I have to start over with what I had to lose last spring.... which was only another 8-10 lbs.
This is totally me!!!!!!! Except I have done the reset followed by increased cals for well over 7 months and continue to gain. :sad:
I posed this question here before and never really heard of anyone that had had success that shared a similar situation as mine, which is : can this work if you have been eating at deficit for years, and lost 100+ pounds (or alot of weight) and possibly really damaged the metabolism, possibly beyond repair??? I really believe that I just cant eat that much at all.
When I started MFP I was at 162 pounds, and I wanted to lose 5-10 lbs. Fast forward November of last year when I started hearing about eating more, and gradaully increased cals up from 1600-1700 to 2000. Slowly gained up to 165-166. Fast forward to March of this year when I started reset, and I am now somewhere around 175 :sad: :noway: My clothes are tight, I am jiggly, and even my husband noticed I have gained...
Can you help me with numbers to run??? I am 5'8". My TDEE est by scooby is 2300, with BMR at 1580.
I have even used the BMF as others have, and continue to gain. Based on that I should eat 2500-3000 and still lose, which believe me I tried and just kept gaining.....and its not like I have been doing this for a month and said eff it and quit. I am going on 2 years here people!!!!
(thanks!!!)
running your numbers according to what is suggested here requires you to know what calorie intake you previously gained on and how long it took to gain that number of pounds. The best thing to do is to start new. Use NEW data...eat at a 15-20% deficit. Track your loss/gain over 4-6 weeks...then you figure out what your deficit/surplus was based on actual weight gained and add/subtract that to what you were actually eating to get your TDEE.0 -
I will respectfully disagree. An individual who has drastically slowed down their metabolism can in fact gain weight on what SHOULD be maintenance and even COULD be maintenance with a bit of patience. People OFTEN maintain on 1300, 1400, 1500, 1700 calories but then increase their calories...gain AT FIRST and then lose some weight. Eventually they maintain on more than that previous number. That is what the reset is all about. You cannot take your reset gain--a result of extended calorie deficits--and use that to assess your maintenance level...you'd be doing yourself absolutely no good.
That's just my opinion though and you're welcome to disagree with it. Thanks for your post though--and I agree that for someone with NO REASON to believe they've impaired their metabolism that this is how they would find their maintenance. Similarly, if a person feels that their metabolism is beyond repair (either because of a hormonal condition or something that cannot be reversed) then they would also benefit.
These are my exact feelings. I think (and have seen) that even though a person's body now *thinks* that the lower # is maintenance, they can retrain it to what maintenance *should* be, with some (ok, TONS of) patience.
The same way that we lower cals further and further to "break plateaus" and then our body adapts, can be done in reverse. but again, it requires a patience and determination that is beyond really caring. :ohwell: When our body adapts to lower calorie intakes, all of the signals are mixed up. So even when we are maintaining on lower #s, it doesn't mean that we should STAY there. That is why I literally took months of just upping the cals until I gained, staying there until I plateaued and then upping them again. My body's idea of "maintenance" could not be trusted. So I just ignored it. Just because I maintained at 1400, doesn't mean I stayed there (thank God!), I also gained first, then eventually maintained at 1600. But I didn't stay there, then I gained/maintained at 1800. and so on.
I am a small person, because I chose to push the limits on my cals, I now eat more than ANY calculator gives me. Our bodies can be retrained. Yes, I gained tons of weight, felt fat, replaced my wardrobe, etc,. but it was for the greater good. Yes, it took for.ev.er before anyone noticed that what I was doing was going to end well :noway: . Yes, people looked at me like I was insane because I kept gaining. :huh:
YES they all look at me crazy now, when they are all eating like birds, and I'm eating twice as much, yet 3xs smaller than they are. It took time, but it was OH, so worth it. :bigsmile:
I mean, honestly...the time was gonna pass anyway...
I understand that not everyone is willing to go there mentally, but, I just had the long term perspective in mind. I'm so happy that I can now maintain at 2200+ cals @5'2. That was purely a pipe dream back in the day.0 -
I've done the same thing. I completely understand. It's soooo much better to bite the bullet--push it a bit and let your body figure it out!I will respectfully disagree. An individual who has drastically slowed down their metabolism can in fact gain weight on what SHOULD be maintenance and even COULD be maintenance with a bit of patience. People OFTEN maintain on 1300, 1400, 1500, 1700 calories but then increase their calories...gain AT FIRST and then lose some weight. Eventually they maintain on more than that previous number. That is what the reset is all about. You cannot take your reset gain--a result of extended calorie deficits--and use that to assess your maintenance level...you'd be doing yourself absolutely no good.
That's just my opinion though and you're welcome to disagree with it. Thanks for your post though--and I agree that for someone with NO REASON to believe they've impaired their metabolism that this is how they would find their maintenance. Similarly, if a person feels that their metabolism is beyond repair (either because of a hormonal condition or something that cannot be reversed) then they would also benefit.
These are my exact feelings. I think (and have seen) that even though a person's body now *thinks* that the lower # is maintenance, they can retrain it to what maintenance *should* be, with some (ok, TONS of) patience.
The same way that we lower cals further and further to "break plateaus" and then our body adapts, can be done in reverse. but again, it requires a patience and determination that is beyond really caring. :ohwell: When our body adapts to lower calorie intakes, all of the signals are mixed up. So even when we are maintaining on lower #s, it doesn't mean that we should STAY there. That is why I literally took months of just upping the cals until I gained, staying there until I plateaued and then upping them again. My body's idea of "maintenance" could not be trusted. So I just ignored it. Just because I maintained at 1400, doesn't mean I stayed there (thank God!), I also gained first, then eventually maintained at 1600. But I didn't stay there, then I gained/maintained at 1800. and so on.
I am a small person, because I chose to push the limits on my cals, I now eat more than ANY calculator gives me. Our bodies can be retrained. Yes, I gained tons of weight, felt fat, replaced my wardrobe, etc,. but it was for the greater good. Yes, it took for.ev.er before anyone noticed that what I was doing was going to end well :noway: . Yes, people looked at me like I was insane because I kept gaining. :huh:
YES they all look at me crazy now, when they are all eating like birds, and I'm eating twice as much, yet 3xs smaller than they are. It took time, but it was OH, so worth it. :bigsmile:
I mean, honestly...the time was gonna pass anyway...
I understand that not everyone is willing to go there mentally, but, I just had the long term perspective in mind. I'm so happy that I can now maintain at 2200+ cals @5'2. That was purely a pipe dream back in the day.0 -
I'd like to further point out that:
1) if someone was restricting carbs and then transition to a more balanced diet then their weight gain would be inflated as a result of the water retention
2) food mass/bulk alone can account for several pounds
Taking those things into consideration--the weight gained during the first week should be completely ignored when trying to determine one's TDEE based on weight gain during a reset. Also, in using these numbers as your TDEE you're likely to be back in the predicament that led you to do the reset in the first place. So you've essentially reversed any progress that the reset might have made.0 -
I've done the same thing. I completely understand. It's soooo much better to bite the bullet--push it a bit and let your body figure it out!
I'd like to further point out that:
1) if someone was restricting carbs and then transition to a more balanced diet then their weight gain would be inflated as a result of the water retention
2) food mass/bulk alone can account for several pounds
Taking those things into consideration--the weight gained during the first week should be completely ignored when trying to determine one's TDEE based on weight gain during a reset. Also, in using these numbers as your TDEE you're likely to be back in the predicament that led you to do the reset in the first place. So you've essentially reversed any progress that the reset might have made.
:flowerforyou:0 -
Can you help me with numbers to run??? I am 5'8". My TDEE est by scooby is 2300, with BMR at 1580.
I have even used the BMF as others have, and continue to gain. Based on that I should eat 2500-3000 and still lose, which believe me I tried and just kept gaining.....and its not like I have been doing this for a month and said eff it and quit. I am going on 2 years here people!!!!
(thanks!!!)
running your numbers according to what is suggested here requires you to know what calorie intake you previously gained on and how long it took to gain that number of pounds. The best thing to do is to start new. Use NEW data...eat at a 15-20% deficit. Track your loss/gain over 4-6 weeks...then you figure out what your deficit/surplus was based on actual weight gained and add/subtract that to what you were actually eating to get your TDEE.
That is a good place to start, if a 15 percent deficit wasn't working, start out by going to 20. And then quickly start gathering data, and scoop together any past data you have, as long as it's accurate, no guessing.
I strongly recommend this spreadsheet (http://interzone.kicks-*kitten*.net/Calculating_calories.xls)--you have to scroll to the right and down a bit-- that's how I can see my deviation. It's called "weight evolution", and you fill in your initial numbers, then record your weekly weight and compare it to the prediction made by the Katch-McArdle formula. I've got mine set to a 1# gain, and as it turns out, I'm maintaining... but then I look back at my actual calorie intake and the average is lower. But still, it's awesome to see the maintenance and know how many calories it took to do that. It gives me data to make decisions.
(Here's where I wish I was in a sci fi situation where a machine in the wall could spit out the perfect amount of calories and macronutrients...)
It also shows me that my weight temporarily drops when I take a week off from lifting, and it rises a bit when its TOM. Seeing that regularly helps me know my body and its patterns. Maybe I'm a bit of a nerd, but I find that kinda cool. :bigsmile:0 -
Thanks!! Much appreciated!0
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I would like to add to the Maintenance conversation by saying that I had trained my body to believe that 600-700 cals per day was maintenance for ME.
Translation: I ate at that level for YEARS and stayed the same. I exercised like crazy and probably netted 200-300 calories per day and lost nothing!!
I weighed 190-200 pounds and needed to lose 70ish pounds, so had PLENTY to lose, but lost NOTHING.
When I chose to do EM2WL and up my calories then went to Reset, I gained a LOT.
It was upsetting, uncomfortable and scary given my very small frame, my age (51) and other illnesses.
But I now understand WHY that happened and what my body was doing~ what else COULD have happened if you go from 600 calories per day to 2200??
I am still fearful of my health at this weight, but at least I understand completely the hows and whys of what's happening with my body!0 -
How long did you gain before you finally started losing?I would like to add to the Maintenance conversation by saying that I had trained my body to believe that 600-700 cals per day was maintenance for ME.
Translation: I ate at that level for YEARS and stayed the same. I exercised like crazy and probably netted 200-300 calories per day and lost nothing!!
I weighed 190-200 pounds and needed to lose 70ish pounds, so had PLENTY to lose, but lost NOTHING.
When I chose to do EM2WL and up my calories then went to Reset, I gained a LOT.
It was upsetting, uncomfortable and scary given my very small frame, my age (51) and other illnesses.
But I now understand WHY that happened and what my body was doing~ what else COULD have happened if you go from 600 calories per day to 2200??
I am still fearful of my health at this weight, but at least I understand completely the hows and whys of what's happening with my body!0 -
I am using my fitbit because the scooby numbers were too high for me. There are some days I burn up to 2500 but there are a lot of days where I only burn 2100. If I ate at 2100 all the time I wouldn't be losing very much if at all.
Using the fitbit numbers it is more tailored to my body so there are days where I eat 1600 (rest days usually) and there are days where I am eating 1900+ depending. I never go below 1600 though (unless I'm not feeling well but even then I don't go too far below 1600).
I had my metabolism tested and she said it is very low so I know I will be losing a lot slower anyway (which seems to have always been the case for me).
So I'm just rolling with it.
I had a 4 lbs loss the other week after 12 weeks of no losses so something is working. My jeans are looser and the inches are coming off again too. I can see more muscle definition as well and my body is looking fitter. I am trying to get out of the NOW mentality, as in the weight needs to all be off NOW. And just keep telling myself that as long as it is coming off, even if it is .1 or .2 loss per week, that's okay. I'm lifting weights too so I know that even if I only lost .1 or .2 I am still changing my body and there is recomposition at play as well.0 -
I will respectfully disagree. An individual who has drastically slowed down their metabolism can in fact gain weight on what SHOULD be maintenance and even COULD be maintenance with a bit of patience. People OFTEN maintain on 1300, 1400, 1500, 1700 calories but then increase their calories...gain AT FIRST and then lose some weight. Eventually they maintain on more than that previous number. That is what the reset is all about. You cannot take your reset gain--a result of extended calorie deficits--and use that to assess your maintenance level...you'd be doing yourself absolutely no good.
That's just my opinion though and you're welcome to disagree with it. Thanks for your post though--and I agree that for someone with NO REASON to believe they've impaired their metabolism that this is how they would find their maintenance. Similarly, if a person feels that their metabolism is beyond repair (either because of a hormonal condition or something that cannot be reversed) then they would also benefit.
I agree with this since I am one of those VLCD people and am going through the metabolism retraining process (I've done the 8 week reset but it is just the beginning of that process...I have so much more healing to do yet!). I'm still not losing scale weight or inches and I'm starting my 7th week of cut, but if you want to see what IS happening, you can read it here (and there's some progress photos which speak volumes):
http://eatmore2weighless.com/update-the-long-haul-nicole/
My ultimate goal is to be at a size I am happy with, eating as much food as I can possibly retrain my metabolism to get away with!
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