An update and a request for help

rowdylibrarian

>Chants< I will not eat at 1200...I will not eat at 1200...I will not eat at 1200...I will not eat at 1200...Ommmmmmmm.....

Lol!

Okay, I am having to chant that a little more regularly lately. I finally had my RMR medically tested after months of nothing happening. My stats at that time (39, 63", 158lbs, 38%bf) say that I should have an RMR of around 1490. The test came out to 1207. The Registered Dietician who did the test wanted me to drop to 1200 calories. I (nicely) disagreed with her about that. I actually had the test redone the next week, since it was so far off from where it should have been. It was 1195. *kicks rocks*

I've mentioned on this group before that I have neither gained nor lost weight on the various calorie levels I've tried on MFP since the beginning of June. I started at 1200 for a little while, lost the usual few water pounds that came back right away, read a lot on MFP, and changed to a higher amount. I've tried 1300, 1350, 1400, 1500, 1550, and went to 1650 about eight weeks ago. I haven't gained or lost weight, inches, or clothing sizes. I do have hypothyroidism, but according to my doctors, it's firmly under control with my medication, and was just re-tested last month. My doctor said that if those numbers were correct, my metabolism is very suppressed.

I just don't know what to do, and I'd love and thank you for your advice. Dropping to 1200 seems like a bad plan. She didn't have any concerns at all about me netting below my RMR/BMR, as I assume I would with exercise. I mentioned that I was worried about dropping my already suppressed RMR even lower by doing this, and she said that that wouldn't happen by eating at 1200. She said that she thought that my TDEE was around 1666 with the exercise built in (1207x1.38). I'm not sure how accurate that was, either, with what I'm doing.

I'm "lifting heavy" three times per week, as well as doing 30 minutes of moderate cardio one to two times per week. (For me, lifting heavy means 3 sets of 5 (3x5) of bench presses at 70 pounds, 3x5 overhead dumbbell presses at 12 pounds, 3x5 barbell squats at 65 pounds, 3x5 deadlifts at 90 pounds, 3x5 lat pulldowns at 48 pounds (my wimpy area!), and 3x5 seated rows at 132 pounds.) I sometimes do 30 minutes or so of fast walking once or twice a week (diminished lately due to a bad sprained ankle.

I know that the philosophy behind EM2WL is sound, and helps a lot of people who have much higher BMRs than they realize, and therefore are undereating. I suspect that my numbers are actually correct (for now), so my problem is trying to figure out what to do with the numbers I have. I don't want to get into the cycle of dropping my calories, dropping my metabolism, and end up having to eat 800 calories to maintain! I've done an (un)happy medium adjustment of dropping from 1650 to 1350 (around 20% below my presumed TDEE). So far nothing has changed.

Even with such a low RMR, do I really have to drop to 1200 to see results?

BluthLover

I'm really sorry you are still struggling. If you aren't gaining or losing with regards to calories I guess that's good and bad news. I guess I would keep upping in until I start gaining... Do you wear a HRM? That may help.

mockchoc

Did you give it 3 or 4 weeks each time you changed your calories? Some people have to wait that long to see it working.

I wouldn't eat below BMR, that's asking for trouble and who wants to live the rest of their lives eating like a bird? Just try the 20% below TDEE for a month if you didn't already for that long. Must be so frustrating for you! Good luck.

rowdylibrarian

I did get a Polar FT7 recently that I've used a few times so far. I've been focusing on weight training lately, and apparently they aren't very accurate for that. I know that they are not supposed to be accurate at all to try to wear all day, though I'm tempted to try it, just to see what it says.

I didn't stick with every single one of those calorie ranges for several weeks, but most of them, I did. A couple of times, I changed the calorie level within a couple of days depending on what I had been reading on MFP! Lol.

I've been doing the -20% off of the 1666 for almost three weeks, so I will have to see what happens, I guess. My weight did start creeping up just a little bit at 1650. But I suspect that was because I was not being quite as careful as I should've been about portions and weighing and measuring, mainly out of frustration that nothing was happening even if I DID weigh and measure! So maybe that shows that the 1666 really is close to my TDEE and since I was probably eating a little bit over it, it was creeping up?

rowdylibrarian

On the up-side, I measured my body fat with an Omron at the gym today, and it was 36.2%! That's the first time it's been below 37%!

HeidiHoMom

On the up-side, I measured my body fat with an Omron at the gym today, and it was 36.2%! That's the first time it's been below 37%!

Well that is a great change! So if your body fat is going down you are doing something right in term of your composition.

Sticking with a calorie range for 3-4 weeks is not really long enough to let your body know you are going to consistently fuel it.

Think more in terms of months.

I had a 3 month plateau where the scale or measurements did not move and then I dropped 5 lbs in a week, and then about a half pound a week since then.

Patience grasshopper. And consistency.

norcal_yogi

I'm really sorry you are still struggling. If you aren't gaining or losing with regards to calories I guess that's good and bad news. I guess I would keep upping in until I start gaining... Do you wear a HRM? That may help.

^^ this ^^ then once you start to gain (given you increase in small increments over a decent amount of time), make note of THAT number, then cut a little (maybe 5 or 10%). then STAY/maintain there for a couple of weeks minimum. then....cut some more, up to about 20%. hopefully you will then know your correct TDEE.

good luck with this!

rowdylibrarian

It seems like I started to gain when I was eating 1650. Realistically, I was probably eating a bit more than 1650, with the inevitable "rounding up". :blushing:

I've dropped down to 1350, but nothing's happening on that so far. I'm trying to be patient. I'm really missing those 300 calories, though!

mockchoc

It seems like I started to gain when I was eating 1650. Realistically, I was probably eating a bit more than 1650, with the inevitable "rounding up". :blushing:

I've dropped down to 1350, but nothing's happening on that so far. I'm trying to be patient. I'm really missing those 300 calories, though!

Maybe you could just drop 100 cals at at time instead.

LuluProteinFueled

It seems like I started to gain when I was eating 1650. Realistically, I was probably eating a bit more than 1650, with the inevitable "rounding up". :blushing:

I've dropped down to 1350, but nothing's happening on that so far. I'm trying to be patient. I'm really missing those 300 calories, though!

When you say "seems like" can you elaborate? Scale? Inches? Clothes? How long did you stay there? With determining your TDEE you must stick it out and wait for the point where your body is maintaining. This is really tough, but necessary. You are only going to be able to figure out an accurate deficit if you are sure of your TDEE. This might take 3 months. But it's worth it for the rest of your journey!

rowdylibrarian

It seems like I started to gain when I was eating 1650. Realistically, I was probably eating a bit more than 1650, with the inevitable "rounding up". :blushing:

I've dropped down to 1350, but nothing's happening on that so far. I'm trying to be patient. I'm really missing those 300 calories, though!

When you say "seems like" can you elaborate? Scale? Inches? Clothes? How long did you stay there? With determining your TDEE you must stick it out and wait for the point where your body is maintaining. This is really tough, but necessary. You are only going to be able to figure out an accurate deficit if you are sure of your TDEE. This might take 3 months. But it's worth it for the rest of your journey!

I was there at 1650 for about 10 weeks, I think. Maybe 11. It was toward the end of that time that the scale started creeping up by a few pounds and staying there, and the very minimal clothing change (in the waist) reversed. Again, at that point, I think I was starting to think, "Oh, well...nothing's working anyway. Might was well eat that extra bit of ice cream. That's probably CLOSE to a cup of pasta/ice cream/polenta, etc."

With the nutritionist telling me that my TDEE was around 1666, with the two RMR measurements of 1207 and 1195, that makes sense. Eating at 1650 was keeping the weight the same (maintenance) , while the "rounding up" was probably causing me to eat more like 1750 or higher. 20% of 1666 is 1333, so I've rounded it up to 1350 to make it a slightly less than 20% cut.

Sigh. Maybe I really do need to go more toward 1250 or 1300? Maybe my TDEE isn't as high as they are guessing. Or maybe four weeks isn't enough time for the 1350 to have worked?

norcal_yogi

if i were you, based on what the dietition said, i'd go down to 1250 (ish) for a while and see what happened.

rowdylibrarian

if i were you, based on what the dietition said, i'd go down to 1250 (ish) for a while and see what happened.

That's what I was afraid of. Lol.

heybales

if i were you, based on what the dietition said, i'd go down to 1250 (ish) for a while and see what happened.

That's what I was afraid of. Lol.

You'll lose weight. Because you are creating a big deficit.

The question is, how long will it take your metabolism to follow the drop until you are in the same boat as right now?

How long will it take to encourage it to go back up by eating more?

And will any loss be wiped out by the increase?

Or will you now go down to 1000 to create a 250 cal deficit from new 1250 TDEE?

And when that catches up with you, now what? 800, 600?

You can affect it both ways. You can find these kind of case studies all over. Not a normal study, just a record of stats and results for a person that was watched carefully starting at some point.

A similar case study was published by Jampolis (2004).
A 51 year old patient complained of a 15 lb weight gain over the last year despite beginning a strenuous triathlon and marathon training program (2 hours per day, 5-6 days per week).
A 3 day diet analysis estimated a daily intake of only 1000-1200 Calories.
An indirect calorimetry revealed a resting metabolic rate of 950 Calories (28% below predicted for age, height, weight, and gender).
After medications and medical conditions such as hypothyroidism and diabetes where ruled out, the final diagnosis was over-training and undereating. The following treatment was recommended:

Increase daily dietary intake by approximately 100 Calories per week to a goal of 1500 calories
32% protein; 35% carbohydrates; 33% fat
Consume 5-6 small meals per day
Small amounts of protein with each meal or snack
Choose high fiber starches
Select mono- and poly- unsaturated fats
Restrict consumption of starch with evening meals unless focused around training
Take daily multi-vitamin and mineral supplement
Perform whole body isometric resistance training 2 times per week

After 6 weeks the patient's resting metabolism increased 35% to 1282 Calories per day (only 2% below predicted).
The patient also decreases percent fat from 37% to 34%, a loss of 5 lbs of body fat.

Jampolis MB (2004) Weight Gain - Marathon Runner / Triathlete. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 36(5) S148.

I'm sure her weight gain during the year was the result of always eating very near TDEE, being discouraged with no weight loss, and every binge was surplus to be added as fat. The stress of exercise and restricted diet would not have helped either.

rowdylibrarian

I get that, heybales. I really do! zi'm dyill noy (That last part was something that my kitten wanted to add, apparently.)

I kind of expected, by that logic, to see that my weight dropped a bit during the last month on 1350ish. According to my Fitbit records, I've burned close to 7000 calories more than i've eaten over the last 30 days. I've actually gained another .5 pounds.

Actually, though, in looking at my stats, with all of the days that I didn't make my goal of 1350, I've been eating an average of 1471 per day. But it's still a difference of about 7000 from what I burned. Grrr. What the heck is going on????????????

I'm certainly not over-exercising. As a matter of fact, it's fallen off, big-time, in the last month, after I screwed up my back badly with some overambitious deadlifts. I've never been an exerciser, so I don't think I've over-trained or anything.

I've changed my age on all of my devices and websites to 89, which gives an accurate BMR burn, (according to the charts) considering that mine is suppressed. The only other thing I could change to make the BMR come out to my current numbers was to lower my weight down to 106, which just screwed everything up.

I'm sorry to be so dense. I just REALLY don't know what to do at this point. If I maintain (or even slightly gain) at 1650 for months, and I maintain (or slightly gain) on 1471 for a month, what does this mean?? What should I really be eating at?????

heybales

I get that, heybales. I really do! zi'm dyill noy (That last part was something that my kitten wanted to add, apparently.)

I kind of expected, by that logic, to see that my weight dropped a bit during the last month on 1350ish. According to my Fitbit records, I've burned close to 7000 calories more than i've eaten over the last 30 days. I've actually gained another .5 pounds.

Actually, though, in looking at my stats, with all of the days that I didn't make my goal of 1350, I've been eating an average of 1471 per day. But it's still a difference of about 7000 from what I burned. Grrr. What the heck is going on????????????

I'm certainly not over-exercising. As a matter of fact, it's fallen off, big-time, in the last month, after I screwed up my back badly with some overambitious deadlifts. I've never been an exerciser, so I don't think I've over-trained or anything.

I've changed my age on all of my devices and websites to 89, which gives an accurate BMR burn, (according to the charts) considering that mine is suppressed. The only other thing I could change to make the BMR come out to my current numbers was to lower my weight down to 106, which just screwed everything up.

I'm sorry to be so dense. I just REALLY don't know what to do at this point. If I maintain (or even slightly gain) at 1650 for months, and I maintain (or slightly gain) on 1471 for a month, what does this mean?? What should I really be eating at?????

So easy test for 3-4 weeks.

If 1650 was avg eating with no weight change for that level of activity, and possible up at the end, then drop to 1400 even for the same avg activity each week.

That should see 2 lbs over the course of a month, right?

Right now that also happens to be a 15% deficit, so appropriate.

But you've already done this basically, right?
You were at 1650 for months on avg and maintaining, so you would think that was your unsuppressed TDEE, and you dropped to this current 1471 per day for the last month, and saw no loss.

So your metabolism already did just what I commented it would do. It went lower already, and appears pretty fast.

So you can obviously throw out the FitBit estimates, as totally off, or you would have seen a loss, right.

So you saw no weight loss in last month, and more importantly, no measurement changes with about 8 sites measured?
Because what if you were losing fat but gaining LBM (not muscle, other stuff, water, glucose, blood volume, ect) from the exercise? No weight change, just measurements.

Now, if no changes at all, then 1471 for that level of activity appears to have become your TDEE.

Which tells me you didn't go high enough for your body to not be stressed over what was happening and cause hormonal problems that has been fighting the deficit, and causing no weight loss.

Your body may have a very small range of deficit that it's going to consider safe enough, so you must go higher to actually create a deficit.

For instance, what if your BMR actually wanted to be higher than avg estimate? Range of accuracy doesn't mean always lower, many are higher too.

That means eating at estimated BMR, your body is already feeling suppressed, and stressed. You'd actually have to go higher.

And what if it feels threatened by a deficit bigger than 300 calories say (just picking number) and the metabolic slowdown occurs? Why, genetics, yo-yo dieting, hormone problem, ect.
That means you pick more than 300, it drops to keep 300, or worse is stressed and drops enough for no deficit to actually be there.

You've already proven, hopefully to yourself too, that going lower isn't the solution, because you already did that and no effect. What direction is left?

rowdylibrarian

So with all of this history, and two measured RMRs at 1207 and 1195 a week apart, and an estimated 1666 as TDEE from lifting "heavy" 3x per week for around 45 minutes, with maybe one 30 minute cardio walk per week, what number of calories should I actually be eating???

heybales

So with all of this history, and two measured RMRs at 1207 and 1195 a week apart, and an estimated 1666 as TDEE from lifting "heavy" 3x per week for around 45 minutes, with maybe one 30 minute cardio walk per week, what number of calories should I actually be eating???

I'm guessing stats in first post still apply, and that 36% BF comment later.

Katch BMR 1358 (test RMR makes a BMR of 1064, so a 300 cal difference should show up easily here)

TDEE for that excellent workout 1795.

Since you have a great workout schedule focused on lifting heavy, you get to try a calorie cycling workout. You can do up to 1 hr of walking 3-4 mph a week. So do the 30 min you commented on. If you need another on the special day listed below, go for it.

So I need you to make the following specific exercises.
Lifting - 45 min - 258 calories
Refeed - 0 min - 437 calories

Daily goal should be set to 1358.

On the workout days, use the Lifting workout and eat those extra calories. With only 258, get them in after your workout.

Every 9 to 11 days (10 if possible), on a rest day, so move the day as needed, use the Refeed workout and eat those extra calories. Rest day means no lifting, you can do that 30 min walk still. Spread those through the day, or enjoy a special dinner.

So that's a deficit of 308 on a combo lift/rest day, 3 sets a week, with 1 day at 437 deficit, so 1361. Balanced with 1 day out of 10 with no deficit.

Got your 8 measurements to start with, to watch fat loss? wrist, forearm, neck, waist, abdomen at navel, hips, thigh, calf. The standard set. Because this should cause some fat loss noticeably.

Set the MFP macro % to:
Carb - 49
Prot - 27
Fat - 24

Really make sure you get the carb and protein in on lift days, rest days protein/fat more important.

Weight and measuring should be on the morning after a rest day, hopefully not after a refeed day though since sodium might be higher. But hopefully not sore either.
So perhaps the morning of a lift day, after the 2 days rest.

Don't worry about fact you are eating at estimated BMR on rest days, you are making it up a tad more on lifting days, and refeed day is to help keep your hormones in check from the stress of diet and exercise.

And I of course used the spreadsheet, goal weight of 120 I guess, and on the TDEE Deficit tab, the Lifting and BF% deficit method. In case you want to see what is happening there.