My rant on "prayers"
mensasu
Posts: 355 Member
So many facebook (and mfp) posts that said "our prayers are with you" to all those devastated by Sandy, and so few that said "what can we do to help?". I know many are really helping, I send $ to Red Cross, but how many people really think that prayers will help and that that is good enough?
Just as a PS. As much as I dislike the LDS, quite often they do send their young folks cross country at their own expense out to help in cleanup situations like Sandy, though I don't know if they have yet. I respect them for that and all the other volunteers who send clothing, cash or donate time to help.
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Their prayers will do as much good as the prayers of those who said "God will protect us."0
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From what I can tell the idea of prayer has a psychological benefit at best. This could be compared to the coach that gives a player a "lucky baseball bat" as a way of helping him hit home runs. In the event it actually works it is largely due to the player actually getting in to the correct mind set. The bat like the prayers has no actual impact on the performance of the player.
On some level I am sure most people have to know this but they are afraid of putting down the lucky bat and stepping up to plate on their own. It does not matter that they were always on their own.
After they have had their version of the lucky bat "work" for them over and over they simply use confirmation bias to confirm what they already wanted to believe. Then they simply say "If my prayers work for me then they can help others too." I think this is at least one way you end up with people saying that they will pray for others.0 -
Absolutely, i think prayer is being used as a "cure all" solution for people, like people pray for aid to come to natural disaster victims. When red cross shows up they say "i prayed for that and it worked" and now they think if they pray, everything will happen0
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That one is a bit humorous to me because we all know that the red cross goes out of its way to help people in disasters. I have donated money to them many times. It really should not be a surprise when they show up to help people at all. It definitely isn't a miracle any more than a waiter bringing a person their food. The waiters made it their occupation to bring people their food it isn't a surprise when you make an order then they show up later with your food.0
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I think this study tells you everything you need to know about prayer: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/165695670
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It doesn't get more cut and dry than that. I think we can safely conclude that even if there is a god he/she/it doesn't care to answer any sort of prayers. I think the most likely explanation regarding the lack of answers is due to a lack of existence of the deity in question.
I think part of the problem I run in to with theists with regard to intercessory prayer is that they don't seem to realize they are making a testable claim. They are saying that they can manipulate the outcome of physical events in this world by communicating their desires telepathically to their chosen deity. What we should expect from that is a statistically significant difference that we can directly correlate to prayer and it should be consistent.0 -
Why pray? Which god? If any god was going to help them, wouldn't it/they have prevented Sandy in the first instance? If you're saying, please pray for me because we made it through some natural disaster, well, what about the other guy who died? Did your god just hate them?
If I say, ok, Allah Akhbar, or something, have I just offended you? When you ask me to pray, could you specify not only the deity, but what flavour of worshipper you are, or something? That'd help.
Bad things happen. I often feel badly for people who are suffering due to no fault of their own. I'm happy to give to a charity that can assist them. But I'm not going to waste my time praying for them, it's ludicrous.0 -
You do bring up an interesting idea here. Why not prevent a hurricane or a tornado? If god is the one making the prayers necessary by sending the natural disaster in the first place it makes in to a rather nasty character indeed. Now he is more like a mob boss forcing you to buy protection from him.0
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“Scientists do not join hands every Sunday and sing "Yes gravity is real! I know gravity is real! I will have faith! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen!" If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about the concept.”
― Dan Barker, Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists0 -
I've always thought prayer was kind of egotistical. If one truly believes in god and thinks that he is the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-benevolent being that the bible makes him out to be, then why is it that we think that we can change whatever plan he has in mind by praying?
Using the natural disaster example, if god is all knowing, and all powerful, and all benevolent it stands to reason that god is allowing the hurricane to happen because of some greater good that will come out of it to mankind. Or maybe not, but since he is all knowing he knows what he is doing. So where does one simple human being get off praying to god that the hurricane doesn't hit their house, or hit another area, or whatever? "Yes, god, I know you're all-everything and I have COMPLETE faith in you and your plan for man kind, but...well, just this once I think I have an idea that is better than yours, so just hear me out...".
Seems pretty ridic to me.
As a side...I'm so glad this place exists. Just found it this evening, but having a nice outlet like this will be awesome
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A couple from the local Jehova's Witnesses camp stopped by a few days after the Japan Tsunami hit and started in on how lovely their GOD is and how he loves everyone. I said " Oh really?? Then why did he just kill a few thousand innocent Japanese people?? Hmmm?? " They always come back with he has a plan and it all happens for a reason. I am so sick of all the religious crap flowing around these days. I argued with them and said if he loved everyone so much he would of said well wait a minute right there, lets not wipe out a small country today. I told them I was rather pissed off at their so called God that week. They left rather shortly after that......haha
I picked up some food at my local Food CoOp I just joined because they have some great prices on produce. Of course everyone there is religious and we meet at a Bible Church for the drop off. I could care less what anyone thinks or does for their own personal welfare. So I am meeting a few of the members and I am talking to this one real nice lady about a certain kind of seeds that has great Omega 3 content. She then asks me what Faith I am. I said I am a Athiest and she gets this look of astonishment on her face. During the conversation I was talking to another guy who might be able to help my son who has SMA look for housing this summer. She then asks what that is and I told her it was a nerve disease in his spine. She then goes off about this preacher who can " Heal " anything with his special therapy. I politely told her that would not work for him and she refused to believe that her so called miracle healer could not fix my son. She obviously has no idea what so ever about SMA and said that is probably why he has never gotten better because we do not pray. What a load of crap.
Sorry about venting but lately it is everywhere and I am growing tired of seeing all the ludicrous ideas and thought patterns of these religious people who insist on turning the most mundane form of human life into a God like miracle. 0 -
@ Miratlhed, I totally understand where you are coming from! My nephew was diagnosed with brain cancer last year and it was A MIRACLE FROM GOD that he was healed, but my question is why isn’t God performing miracles to prevent cancer in children, but he can perform the miracle to heal it? Thankfully he recovered. Half of my family didn't even credit the AMAZING team of doctors, oncologist, nurses and hospital staff who saved my nephew, but gave all glory and praise to God.
And while the rant is rolling I am sick and tired of seeing Facebook prayer pagers. I get it that people need support and I'd love to help out in any way I can, but asking for prayers is such a cheap cop out of actually really doing any good. I asked for people to donate just 5 bucks to the local children's hospital where my nephew was treated and I got replies of 'He is in my prayers!" Pretty disheartening that no one could chip in small change or supplies for the kids
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A couple from the local Jehova's Witnesses camp stopped by a few days after the Japan Tsunami hit and started in on how lovely their GOD is and how he loves everyone. I said " Oh really?? Then why did he just kill a few thousand innocent Japanese people?? Hmmm?? " They always come back with he has a plan and it all happens for a reason. I am so sick of all the religious crap flowing around these days.
I grew up Jehovah's Witness. They say it is because the earth is being controlled by Satan, and that "This system of things" proves that, blah blah. Also they get REALLY excited when there are bad natural disasters because they think that is proof that Armageddon is coming, and that the earth will be a paradise and all us wicked people will be killed off, and they will live eternally on earth. When I told my dad I didn't believe in god (he was an elder), he said, "Well you won't get to live forever!" I told him that I could think of no worse hell than living forever with a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Happy Friday!0 -
@perfekta. Yep, a few years ago I was trying to see what all this religion was about because I was not brought up in a religious home. I studied with this particular group for a while and they would NEVER let me speak and ask questions about the things we were reading. They would always say we have to read the printed word and they would never let me debate anything. They too were all waiting for the day that the earth turned to paradise and all of us evil doers would perish.
@Ajasper83 Doesn't that just grind you when someone gets saved by a dedicated team of Nurses and Doctors, engineers who design these life saving devices but yet NONE of them thank those people and it is all about how GOD did the work and saved the person. I always pipe up and speak about that. My wife is a Nurse and my son would not be here today without the great work of many doctors and machines that keep him alive. They need the credit 100%.0 -
@MiRatlhed -- That is so true, about the nurses and doctors. Here we have hundreds of years of research, trial and error, and human ingenuity being practiced and channeled through professionals who have spent large quantities of time, money, and energy into perfecting their craft, doing everything they know how to keep a person alive. And then people thank god for the "miracle". Let's see how well those miracles work without doctors.
Same thing with sports, too. When an athlete accomplishes some great feat and many of them thank god for helping them achieve their goals...it's like, give yourself a little credit! You trained ans sweated and sacrificed, you did this, not god.0 -
I love when the athletes thank God, but how many thank God for losing?! Maybe he wanted them to lose so they will train harder, be stronger and live up to their potential!0
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I love when the athletes thank God, but how many thank God for losing?! Maybe he wanted them to lose so they will train harder, be stronger and live up to their potential!
Believe it or not, there are some Jews who take that approach to the Holocaust: God's punishment for not being better Jews.0 -
I love when the athletes thank God, but how many thank God for losing?! Maybe he wanted them to lose so they will train harder, be stronger and live up to their potential!
Believe it or not, there are some Jews who take that approach to the Holocaust: God's punishment for not being better Jews.
WTF. Now that is just scary when people use religion to make such extreme justifications.0 -
I love this quote by a holocaust survivor :
“Blessed be God's name? Why, but why would I bless Him? Every fiber in me rebelled. Because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because he kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days? Because in His great might, He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many other factories of death? How could I say to Him: Blessed be Thou, Almighty, Master of the Universe, who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night, to watch as our fathers, our mothers, our brothers, end up in the furnaces? Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?”
― Elie Wiesel, Night0 -
I love this quote by a holocaust survivor :
“Blessed be God's name? Why, but why would I bless Him? Every fiber in me rebelled. Because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because he kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days? Because in His great might, He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many other factories of death? How could I say to Him: Blessed be Thou, Almighty, Master of the Universe, who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night, to watch as our fathers, our mothers, our brothers, end up in the furnaces? Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?”
― Elie Wiesel, Night
This is chilling. One would like to think that this must be hyperbole. Surely the world could never have contained such horrors. The truth is the tortures that were imposed up the people claimed by the holocaust were some of the worst conceivable by the human mind. All that I can say is I am glad that he was able to live long enough to tell his story. I just hope nothing as horrible as the holocaust ever happens again.0 -
Unfortunately it has and does. I know a guy (five years or so younger than me) who witnessed mass murder as a kid in Bosnia in the nineties. Then there was Rwanda. I sometimes wonder what is more frightening - a handful of maniacs who mastermind that kind of crime or the rest of the population who put up with it and think it's acceptable. More on the topic - yeah, how can something like the holocaust be a part of "the grand design"?This is chilling. One would like to think that this must be hyperbole. Surely the world could never have contained such horrors. The truth is the tortures that were imposed up the people claimed by the holocaust were some of the worst conceivable by the human mind. All that I can say is I am glad that he was able to live long enough to tell his story. I just hope nothing as horrible as the holocaust ever happens again.0 -
Unfortunately it has and does. I know a guy (five years or so younger than me) who witnessed mass murder as a kid in Bosnia in the nineties. Then there was Rwanda. I sometimes wonder what is more frightening - a handful of maniacs who mastermind that kind of crime or the rest of the population who put up with it and think it's acceptable. More on the topic - yeah, how can something like the holocaust be a part of "the grand design"?This is chilling. One would like to think that this must be hyperbole. Surely the world could never have contained such horrors. The truth is the tortures that were imposed up the people claimed by the holocaust were some of the worst conceivable by the human mind. All that I can say is I am glad that he was able to live long enough to tell his story. I just hope nothing as horrible as the holocaust ever happens again.
The only way the holocaust could be part of a grand design would be if the omnipotent being with the power to stop it simply allowed it to happen. Which makes it difficult for me to see such a being as benevolent. Now something like the holocaust fits in perfectly in a world where there is no all powerful being to prevent it. All it takes is the right circumstances and the right maniac to be in charge and you've got yourself a holocaust.
While Rwanda and Bosnia are not nearly on the same scale as the holocaust from WW2 I do get your point. The crimes against humanity are still being committed and I do not know if they will ever be stopped.0 -
Unfortunately it has and does. I know a guy (five years or so younger than me) who witnessed mass murder as a kid in Bosnia in the nineties. Then there was Rwanda. I sometimes wonder what is more frightening - a handful of maniacs who mastermind that kind of crime or the rest of the population who put up with it and think it's acceptable. More on the topic - yeah, how can something like the holocaust be a part of "the grand design"?This is chilling. One would like to think that this must be hyperbole. Surely the world could never have contained such horrors. The truth is the tortures that were imposed up the people claimed by the holocaust were some of the worst conceivable by the human mind. All that I can say is I am glad that he was able to live long enough to tell his story. I just hope nothing as horrible as the holocaust ever happens again.
The only way the holocaust could be part of a grand design would be if the omnipotent being with the power to stop it simply allowed it to happen. Which makes it difficult for me to see such a being as benevolent. Now something like the holocaust fits in perfectly in a world where there is no all powerful being to prevent it. All it takes is the right circumstances and the right maniac to be in charge and you've got yourself a holocaust.
While Rwanda and Bosnia are not nearly on the same scale as the holocaust from WW2 I do get your point. The crimes against humanity are still being committed and I do not know if they will ever be stopped.
And not only, if he exists, did god ALLOW the mass killings, he blatantly ignored or rejected many, many pleas for it to stop.
Blech.0
