When to move from full body to a split?

thedreamhazer

I haven't been lifting that long -- only about 14 months, and I've only been on my current program since April. I've made terrific gains doing 2-3 full body workouts per weeks, but it's gotten to the point that I'm lifting heavy enough that's it's difficult to maintain. The main difficulty is that my program has me squatting every lifting day ... and now that I'm squatting so heavy, only one rest day between squatting isn't enough.

I'm thinking about changing up my program, but I'm not sure what to do. So I'm looking for input: do I move away from the full body workouts entirely and start a split routine? Or do I just modify my full body routine so that I'm not squatting each time I lift ... and if so, any suggestions on what that should look like?

Here's m current routine:

Alternating A and B days (Sunday, Tuesday, Friday)

A:
3x5 Squat
3x5 Overhead Press
1x5 Romanian Deadlift
1x5 Deadlift
3x5 Pull-ups (with assistance)

B:
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
3x5 Pendlay Row
3 drop sets Rear Delt Fly

And if it helps -- I also box 3 days per week (Monday, Thursday, Saturday) and do steady state cardio or intervals on Wednesday.

ArroganceInStep

Have you considered Wendler's 5-3-1?

Another popular 3 day split is Legs, Press, Pull. That's what I mostly do.

Finally to stick with A,B workout programs you could try an Upper day and a Lower day (though I don't like that split)

Sarauk2sf

Have you considered Wendler's 5-3-1?

Another popular 3 day split is Legs, Press, Pull. That's what I mostly do.

Finally to stick with A,B workout programs you could try an Upper day and a Lower day (though I don't like that split)

^^I agree with this. I would say that you are probably at a stage where it makes sense to switch.

Hendrix7

There is no 'right' answer to this question really, you have a few options.

- Alternate your squat days between, light/speed, medium and heavy work - you may find this easier to recover from
- Reduce the heavy deadlifting to once per week or once every 2 weeks. I can squat 4 times per week with no recovery issues, you might find it's actually the deadlifting which is hindering your recovery.
- Move to an upper lower
- Move to a push/pull/legs

I think push/pull/legs is more suited to bodybuilding rather than strength training personally. Upper lower is a nice balance between volume and frequency imo.

yecatsml

Been wondering about this too for the future. I'm not quite where OP is yet, but will get there and like to hear options/opinions.

thedreamhazer

Thanks, everyone, i am processing all responses! Researching Wendler's 5-3-1 right now.

thedreamhazer

I'm really liking the look of Wendler's 5-3-1, but unsure of what kind of assistance work I should be looking at. I'd prefer to stick to dumbbell/barbell lifts or bodyweight work as opposed to going into any kind of machines (so leg curls aren't really on my to do list, for instance). I particularly want to focus on adding more pull moves than the core program has -- pullups and rows, for instance. I already am working to correct a strength imbalance between my front and rear delt and don't want to aggravate it further. Thoughts?

ArroganceInStep

Thanks, everyone, i am processing all responses! Researching Wendler's 5-3-1 right now.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

Wendler also has a book for sale with more info. 5/3/1 is just the paradigm for programming for a specific lift. You can tailor it quite a bit for your needs.

ilovedeadlifts

I think 5/3/1 would be a good transition if you've already exhausted all of the gains you can get from a 5x5 style program. The gains on 5/3/1 are a bit slower.

You can easily program your assistance without machines for 5/3/1. I'm a big fan of starting with the Boring but Big assistance for the first month or two. Then just pick a few excercises and stick with them for 1-2 cycles and change them when they stop working.

Wendler preaches that you should do a pull for every push, so that should help with that delt imbalance. Doing chins/pullups between sets of bench is a great way to get extra back volume in. I had the same issue and started doing a lot of face pulls and rows and my back has caught up.

I revisited 5/3/1 briefly to take a break from what I was doing and I set it up like this.

Mon:
Squats (5/3/1 percentages)
SLDLs
Abs
Another leg/low back movement. Light good mornings, lunges, hamstring curls, etc

Wed:
Bench, superset with chins or pullups
secondary pressing movement (dumbbell bench variation, floor press, or illegal wide bench)
back work

Friday:
Deads
olympic squats for higher reps
DB Rows
hamstring/low back/abs, whatever needs work

Saturday/Sunday:
Overhead
Pressing variation
back work
curls (don't put a ton of time/effort into these, but for injury prevention they've worked wonders.)

But you can make the workouts as simple as the main lift and one accessory and still see progress IMO.

souljajoe010

I think 5/3/1 would be a good transition if you've already exhausted all of the gains you can get from a 5x5 style program. The gains on 5/3/1 are a bit slower.

You can easily program your assistance without machines for 5/3/1. I'm a big fan of starting with the Boring but Big assistance for the first month or two. Then just pick a few excercises and stick with them for 1-2 cycles and change them when they stop working.

Wendler preaches that you should do a pull for every push, so that should help with that delt imbalance. Doing chins/pullups between sets of bench is a great way to get extra back volume in. I had the same issue and started doing a lot of face pulls and rows and my back has caught up.

I revisited 5/3/1 briefly to take a break from what I was doing and I set it up like this.

Mon:
Squats (5/3/1 percentages)
SLDLs
Abs
Another leg/low back movement. Light good mornings, lunges, hamstring curls, etc

Wed:
Bench, superset with chins or pullups
secondary pressing movement (dumbbell bench variation, floor press, or illegal wide bench)
back work

Friday:
Deads
olympic squats for higher reps
DB Rows
hamstring/low back/abs, whatever needs work

Saturday/Sunday:
Overhead
Pressing variation
back work
curls (don't put a ton of time/effort into these, but for injury prevention they've worked wonders.)

But you can make the workouts as simple as the main lift and one accessory and still see progress IMO.

Is this true?, "I think 5/3/1 would be a good transition if you've already exhausted all of the gains you can get from a 5x5 style program. The gains on 5/3/1 are a bit slower."
I just started 5/3/1 the gains appear to be slow.. but easaier, i want to rush it and double weight i suppose to add weekly. should i take a look at 5x5? only been on 5/3/1 for 3 workouts

ilovedeadlifts

Is this true?, "I think 5/3/1 would be a good transition if you've already exhausted all of the gains you can get from a 5x5 style program. The gains on 5/3/1 are a bit slower."
I just started 5/3/1 the gains appear to be slow.. but easaier, i want to rush it and double weight i suppose to add weekly. should i take a look at 5x5? only been on 5/3/1 for 3 workouts

. (you can PM me about it if you don't want to air it but I'm gonna post my thoughts here anyway in case other people are in a similar situation.)
Depending on your lifts and where they're at, I think you'd progress faster on a 5x5 program. I ran 5/3/1 for 6 months because it's the first solid routine that was reccommended to me. Some good friends talked me into running Madcows 5x5 and I put about 30-40 pounds on my squat and bench in 9 weeks, and gained a ton of confidence under the heavier weights.
5/3/1 is great, but I think it's better used as an intermediate program after you've ran a full body 5x5 program for a while.

souljajoe010

awesome, thanks

chrisdavey

I think the 3x a week other training will be the main issue with recovery. It certainly was for me when I was doing mma.

Why are you lifting? Strength, hypertrophy, sporting fitness? That should point you in the right direction of what sort of program to go with.

I like Hendrix's suggestion of ME/DE days squatting and reducing the deadlifting.

And 5/3/1 is a great program and very customisable if you do choose to go that way.

ArroganceInStep

Is this true?, "I think 5/3/1 would be a good transition if you've already exhausted all of the gains you can get from a 5x5 style program. The gains on 5/3/1 are a bit slower."
I just started 5/3/1 the gains appear to be slow.. but easaier, i want to rush it and double weight i suppose to add weekly. should i take a look at 5x5? only been on 5/3/1 for 3 workouts

. (you can PM me about it if you don't want to air it but I'm gonna post my thoughts here anyway in case other people are in a similar situation.)
Depending on your lifts and where they're at, I think you'd progress faster on a 5x5 program. I ran 5/3/1 for 6 months because it's the first solid routine that was reccommended to me. Some good friends talked me into running Madcows 5x5 and I put about 30-40 pounds on my squat and bench in 9 weeks, and gained a ton of confidence under the heavier weights.
5/3/1 is great, but I think it's better used as an intermediate program after you've ran a full body 5x5 program for a while.

To add to this a bit. 5x5 is a linear program wherein you add weight to your exercises every workout. 5/3/1 is still technically linear, but you add weight monthly so most folks don't consider it to be a linear progression (for distinction). As a general rule, linear progression is the fastest method of adding weight to the bar. Adding weight monthly can't possibly keep up with adding weight 1-3 times per week. This is why the the method works so well for beginners. Gains come quickly, recovery is fast since you're lifting a (comparatively) light load than you would be as an intermediate or advanced lifter, you're still focused on improving technique and efficiency of movement for gains on top of just getting stronger. As you transition away from that though, constantly adding weight can really beat you up (you clearly can't keep adding that way forever, or people would be squatting a billion pounds by now). Slowing down a bit and working in varying ranges becomes more useful and effective as it (ideally) makes you less likely to stall and what not.

All that being said, there's something to be noted when it comes to how much you like a routine. You don't need to have the most efficient routine. MUCH more important is one you enjoy and one you'll stick with long term.

musclebuilder

There is no 'right' answer to this question really, you have a few options.

- Alternate your squat days between, light/speed, medium and heavy work - you may find this easier to recover from
- Reduce the heavy deadlifting to once per week or once every 2 weeks. I can squat 4 times per week with no recovery issues, you might find it's actually the deadlifting which is hindering your recovery.
- Move to an upper lower
- Move to a push/pull/legs

I think push/pull/legs is more suited to bodybuilding rather than strength training personally. Upper lower is a nice balance between volume and frequency imo.

If a main focus is improving your squat than squatting more frequently is a great way to do just that..If that is the case I agree with hendrix suggestion of varying your intensity/rep ranges for your squats..If you are squatting 3x per week each squat WO you train in a different intensity zone..Which is basically just training at different rep ranges..You could do 1-3 reps one WO, 3-6 another WO, and 6+ another WO for example. This allows you to focus on improving numerous aspects of the neuromuscular system (absolute-strength, explosive-strength, muscular size and or strength-endurance ect..) You can also add some variation to the exercise like power rack squats one WO, Box squats another, squats with chains the other ect..

chrisdavey

and speed work will help as well I did something like 10 sets of 2 at 50-60% with short rest breaks.

derekracca

Here is a good video that discusses moving to a split http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbott7Ccgq4