Building muscle AND losing fat at the same time!
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I looked but can find the right phraseology to make it happen. It's there, and if I find it I will post it. Keep in mind this was 1 study. The interesting part was they were trained athletes.There's also what's referred to as regional muscle mass gain in a deficit, I'll try and find the paper, it's been a few years. Basically muscle is built in areas that are stressed and taken from areas that aren't. Has a person actually increased total muscle mass, no, but the ones that get worked do increase.......
Interesting, I'd like to see it if you can find it. Please pm me or post it here if you'd prefer.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet0 -
I looked but can find the right phraseology to make it happen. It's there, and if I find it I will post it. Keep in mind this was 1 study. The interesting part was they were trained athletes.There's also what's referred to as regional muscle mass gain in a deficit, I'll try and find the paper, it's been a few years. Basically muscle is built in areas that are stressed and taken from areas that aren't. Has a person actually increased total muscle mass, no, but the ones that get worked do increase.......
Interesting, I'd like to see it if you can find it. Please pm me or post it here if you'd prefer.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet
I do not think that this is what they were referring to. Those studies are really showing what is generally taken as the situations where people can gain muscle (or LBM with water/glycogen). Neanderthin was referring to gaining muscle in one area at the 'expense' of another.0 -
I looked but can find the right phraseology to make it happen. It's there, and if I find it I will post it. Keep in mind this was 1 study. The interesting part was they were trained athletes.There's also what's referred to as regional muscle mass gain in a deficit, I'll try and find the paper, it's been a few years. Basically muscle is built in areas that are stressed and taken from areas that aren't. Has a person actually increased total muscle mass, no, but the ones that get worked do increase.......
Interesting, I'd like to see it if you can find it. Please pm me or post it here if you'd prefer.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet
I do not think that this is what they were referring to. Those studies are really showing what is generally taken as the situations where people can gain muscle (or LBM with water/glycogen). Neanderthin was referring to gaining muscle in one area at the 'expense' of another.
DOH - 3 posts to delete!
I did misread that comment.
Makes intuitive sense. Studies already show you'll lose muscle mass in a deficit if no resistance training and/or not enough protein.
Studies such as above show you can gain muscle (LBM) in areas that are newbie areas in deficit.
Combine the 2.
Like say, break an ankle in 3 spots and pretty much lay off the lower body for 6 weeks while doing better and better upper body lifting only, while in slight deficit.
Then stupidly lose some of your gains when you can eventually do cardio better and cause bigger deficit with more of it, with less time for upper body being done.0 -
I looked but can find the right phraseology to make it happen. It's there, and if I find it I will post it. Keep in mind this was 1 study. The interesting part was they were trained athletes.There's also what's referred to as regional muscle mass gain in a deficit, I'll try and find the paper, it's been a few years. Basically muscle is built in areas that are stressed and taken from areas that aren't. Has a person actually increased total muscle mass, no, but the ones that get worked do increase.......
Interesting, I'd like to see it if you can find it. Please pm me or post it here if you'd prefer.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet
I do not think that this is what they were referring to. Those studies are really showing what is generally taken as the situations where people can gain muscle (or LBM with water/glycogen). Neanderthin was referring to gaining muscle in one area at the 'expense' of another.
DOH - 3 posts to delete!
I did misread that comment.
Makes intuitive sense. Studies already show you'll lose muscle mass in a deficit if no resistance training and/or not enough protein.
Studies such as above show you can gain muscle (LBM) in areas that are newbie areas in deficit.
Combine the 2.
Like say, break an ankle in 3 spots and pretty much lay off the lower body for 6 weeks while doing better and better upper body lifting only, while in slight deficit.
Then stupidly lose some of your gains when you can eventually do cardio better and cause bigger deficit with more of it, with less time for upper body being done.
Agreed re 'returning lifter gains'. I would even venture so far as to hypothesize that you can get some gains by varying stimulus (to a degree - and this is conjecture that myself and SideSteel have nerded out about to each other before and not something I have seen in studies specifically).
However, I *think* that this is re something different - but will have to see the study or have Neanderthin confirm.0 -
Bodyweight will go down assuming you are in an energy deficit. Your strength should go up for quite a while until you get quite lean and/or quite experienced with lifting. Your muscles will probably appear larger assuming you are only losing fat and not LBM. Initially you will likely retain some additional fluids/glycogen which may also make your muscles look larger.So that means that while on a deficit, combining lifting and cardio I will be losing fat. Should I be seeing a change in my body from lifting though the gains will be slim to none?
Sidesteel, you said "assuming you are only losing fat and not LBM"
Would that be possible, to lose only fat? I thought some amount of weight loss would be loss of LBM, even if one were doing resistance training, yes? Is there any way, other than doing resistance and upping protein intake, to ensure that all of weight loss is predominantly fat loss0 -
Bodyweight will go down assuming you are in an energy deficit. Your strength should go up for quite a while until you get quite lean and/or quite experienced with lifting. Your muscles will probably appear larger assuming you are only losing fat and not LBM. Initially you will likely retain some additional fluids/glycogen which may also make your muscles look larger.So that means that while on a deficit, combining lifting and cardio I will be losing fat. Should I be seeing a change in my body from lifting though the gains will be slim to none?
Sidesteel, you said "assuming you are only losing fat and not LBM"
Would that be possible, to lose only fat? I thought some amount of weight loss would be loss of LBM, even if one were doing resistance training, yes? Is there any way, other than doing resistance and upping protein intake, to ensure that all of weight loss is predominantly fat loss
It depends on how lean you get and a bunch of other factors (age, training routine, length and severity of deficit, gender, genetics etc) as to whether you can maintain muscle mass.
The other thing to do is not have a significant deficit (assuming the resistance training is a good program with progressive loading and the protein is adequate).0 -
Thanks Sara.Is there any way, other than doing resistance and upping protein intake, to ensure that all of weight loss is predominantly fat loss
It depends on how lean you get and a bunch of other factors (age, training routine, length and severity of deficit, gender, genetics etc) as to whether you can maintain muscle mass.
The other thing to do is not have a significant deficit (assuming the resistance training is a good program with progressive loading and the protein is adequate).
What would constitute a sweet spot for the optimum deficit ? Is that why the TDEE-20% is recommended?0 -
Thanks Sara.Is there any way, other than doing resistance and upping protein intake, to ensure that all of weight loss is predominantly fat loss
It depends on how lean you get and a bunch of other factors (age, training routine, length and severity of deficit, gender, genetics etc) as to whether you can maintain muscle mass.
The other thing to do is not have a significant deficit (assuming the resistance training is a good program with progressive loading and the protein is adequate).
What would constitute a sweet spot for the optimum deficit ? Is that why the TDEE-20% is recommended?
It depends on how lean you are in the first place. While there is no one answer as it depends on a range of factors, TDEE - 20% is usually a good point until you start getting very lean and then this should be scaled back if you want to really be careful. This is not to say that TDEE - 20% will result in muscle loss - but sometimes its best to play it safe.
I actually prefer to look at it as a % of weight. The deficit that gives a 1% of total body weight loss a week is generally considered fine, and then this gets scaled back to 0.5% a week when getting very lean.0 -
Thanks Sara, that's a much more useful metric to monitorI actually prefer to look at it as a % of weight. The deficit that gives a 1% of total body weight loss a week is generally considered fine, and then this gets scaled back to 0.5% a week when getting very lean.0 -
Bump0
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Gotta bump this
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Well, boo. I was hoping to eat at maintenance and continue lifting until my (very small ~4 lbs) cut for summer, where I would continue to maintain and then bulk next fall/winter with the hope of achieving some sort of body recomp before next fall.
Although I'm a new lifter, I'm not overfat. I have seen some lower body changes in the last 4 months or so I've been lifting, but essentially, according to the article, I'm pretty much spinning my wheels unless I do an official bulk/cut cycle. Is that correct? Is there no benefit (besides health and strength) to lifting at maintenance?
Stats: Female, 37 years-old, 129 lb, 5'5.5"0 -
Thank you for the article link!0
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Well, boo. I was hoping to eat at maintenance and continue lifting until my (very small ~4 lbs) cut for summer, where I would continue to maintain and then bulk next fall/winter with the hope of achieving some sort of body recomp before next fall.
Although I'm a new lifter, I'm not overfat. I have seen some lower body changes in the last 4 months or so I've been lifting, but essentially, according to the article, I'm pretty much spinning my wheels unless I do an official bulk/cut cycle. Is that correct? Is there no benefit (besides health and strength) to lifting at maintenance?
Stats: Female, 37 years-old, 129 lb, 5'5.5"
If you lift and eat at maintenance you can gain muscle at a very slow pace.0 -
no idea what any of this means
Did you read the article?
yes, but obviously i'm not a smart enough person to understand it
Cliffs:
You can get some gains on a deficit if you are new to lifting and/or significantly overweight but these are limited and finite. Otherwise, you need to eat at a surplus to gain muscle mass.
So that means that while on a deficit, combining lifting and cardio I will be losing fat. Should I be seeing a change in my body from lifting though the gains will be slim to none?
Bodyweight will go down assuming you are in an energy deficit. Your strength should go up for quite a while until you get quite lean and/or quite experienced with lifting. Your muscles will probably appear larger assuming you are only losing fat and not LBM. Initially you will likely retain some additional fluids/glycogen which may also make your muscles look larger.
^^^ this is what I was looking for .
I had read that I could not build muscle while losing fat. I have been strength training since I started losing( body weight training at first then lifting ) I noticed or thought I noticed that I had more muscle than when I started . I thought it was my imagination ...
Before I change anything, I always look at this site for more information and it always steers me right .I have gotten stronger and I am so proud of that :bigsmile: I am starting to see definition in my back and shoulders and my biceps it's awesome !
I am definitely the overfat beginner in the article ,never weight trained before ,insulin resistant - right on target
Thanks for that article and every other article that you find and post !0 -
Hope it's okay to post, I'm proof this works. Overweight noob here, I eat 100gs of protein/day (I just took a shot in the dark with that number, and have now been eating over that most days) have been on IIFYM for 67 days. Using Fat2Fit Radio BF calculator, according to measurements, I have lost 11 inches total, gone from 42% body Fat to 36.3%, gained 5.6lbs LBM, lost 15 lbs fat, and lost 9 lbs overall. Sounds like a crappy amount of weight loss in 67 days (10 weeks), but my body looks completely different, and I'm down a full pants size.
I was getting so confused and really discouraged by all the generic "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" people on the main threads when my numbers were telling me differently.
Great information! Thank you 0 -
Well, boo. I was hoping to eat at maintenance and continue lifting until my (very small ~4 lbs) cut for summer, where I would continue to maintain and then bulk next fall/winter with the hope of achieving some sort of body recomp before next fall.
Although I'm a new lifter, I'm not overfat. I have seen some lower body changes in the last 4 months or so I've been lifting, but essentially, according to the article, I'm pretty much spinning my wheels unless I do an official bulk/cut cycle. Is that correct? Is there no benefit (besides health and strength) to lifting at maintenance?
Stats: Female, 37 years-old, 129 lb, 5'5.5"
If you lift and eat at maintenance you can gain muscle at a very slow pace.
I was not an overfat beginner when I started lifting in September 2013, and I have gained about 2 lbs, but I do have progress photos to show. Don't know if this is the right thread to do so, but I think it's pertinent. Since I've been basically sitting at maintenance all winter while I lift, these are the results of my "recomp". Hopefully this can help others with what to expect for results.
August 2013 ~ 128 lbs
[img]http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee322/jivete/Lifting progress/F-08192013.jpg[/img]
February 2014 ~ 131 lbs (though the next day I was 129.5 lbs)
[img]http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee322/jivete/Lifting progress/F-02272014.jpg[/img]
So, yeah, pretty slow progress, but I am seeing progress nonetheless. Next year I'll do an official bulk/cut cycle, but at least this gives me hope for continued improvent over the summer. I will start cutting for summer soon, but like I said earlier, it's a small cut.
ETA: excuse the bathroom shot. It's the best/easiest mirror for me to take progress photos. I've been standing on the toilet for years taking the same pictures, lol.0 -
husseycd: How tall are you?
I wish I had taken photos when I started heavy lifting last August, because sometimes I think I look exactly the same as I did back in October. Those first 1-2 months I saw results pretty quickly. Other days I think I see small changes, like more vascularity and definition, but dang it's slow!
I'm 5'9" and the same weight as you and just maintaining - so was curious about your height.
eta: I have never been overweight and have regularly worked out, but not "heavy" until a few months ago.0 -
husseycd: How tall are you?
I wish I had taken photos when I started heavy lifting last August, because sometimes I think I look exactly the same as I did back in October. Those first 1-2 months I saw results pretty quickly. Other days I think I see small changes, like more vascularity and definition, but dang it's slow!
I'm 5'9" and the same weight as you and just maintaining - so was curious about your height.
eta: I have never been overweight and have regularly worked out, but not "heavy" until a few months ago.
I'm 5'5.5". Yes, that 0.5" is important. :laugh:0 -
husseycd: How tall are you?
I wish I had taken photos when I started heavy lifting last August, because sometimes I think I look exactly the same as I did back in October. Those first 1-2 months I saw results pretty quickly. Other days I think I see small changes, like more vascularity and definition, but dang it's slow!
I'm 5'9" and the same weight as you and just maintaining - so was curious about your height.
eta: I have never been overweight and have regularly worked out, but not "heavy" until a few months ago.
I'm 5'5.5". Yes, that 0.5" is important. :laugh:
Yes it is. :happy:0 -
bump, thanks for the article, good read.0
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bumping to review later..as this topic seems to come up a lot on main forums...0
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Tag to read in full later0
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Saving for later. Thanks0
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OK, I've read the article and read through this thread and am still a little confused. Because to me it sounds like the article is saying that a body recomp is basically impossible unless you are an overfat beginner and/or someone who previously lifted and is just getting back to it. But from other threads in this group, I've gotten the impression that it's possible for other people; it's just slow going compared to cut/bulk cycles. Is that correct?
I think a recomp makes the most sense for me right now since I really don't want to lose more than 3-5 more pounds but would love to gain a little muscle (I'm already at a relatively low weight but also low LBM). But I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about that. Eat at maintenance and lift heavy 3-4x/wk? (I'd also like to throw in HIIT and running 2x/wk each). Will I make newb gains even if I'm not "overfat" to start with? I had gotten into lifting a few months ago (experimenting with some different approaches), then didn't do it for about 2 months b/c I was dealing with some health issues and focused my limited energy on training for my first 10K. Now that the race is behind me, I plan to start Starting Strength or NROLFW.0 -
Bump - Great topic!!0
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bump0
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